[Music] today at the national press club chair of the royal commission into defense and Veteran suicide Nick kaldas the former high-ranking New South Wales police officer has worked for the United Nations and is now touring the country investigating Australia's treatment of soldiers and their mental health Nick cowardice today at the national Press Club [Music] hello and welcome to today's national Press Club Westpac address my name is Andrew tillett and I'm the Cubs vice president as well as the uh defense and Foreign Affairs correspondent for the Australian financial review regular viewers will notice today's address is in a different venue the Press Club is currently undergoing renovation so we're broadcasting from the National Gallery of Australia's gandal Hall today's speaker is Nick chair of the royal commission into defense and Veterans suicide Mr cowardice one of the top investigators of his generation and a former Deputy Commissioner of the New South Wales police was appointed to head the Royal Commission in 2021 following alarming support the reports of the suicide crisis among military personnel and veterans Mr Carters and his fellow Royal Commissioners have taken evidence from hundreds of witnesses and thousands of submissions from current and former service men and women about mistreatment while serving in uniform and struggles after leaving the military with physical and mental health and interim report last year May 11 recommend 13 recommendations including the need to reduce the backlog of claims for help from the Department of Veterans Affairs with the final report due next year Mr kalbus last week issued a rebuke of the defense leadership saying they wanted the Royal commission to end so they could go back to business as usual for current and former personnel and their families a reminder that assistance is available from the Open Arms counseling service on 1-800-011 046 or lifeline on one three one one one four you can follow today's conversation at Press Club OST or hashtag NPC please everyone welcome to caldis [Applause] good afternoon ladies and gents um it's an honor to be here today during Suicide Prevention Week to speak about what is a national tragedy and unacceptably high rates of suicide and suicidality among serving and ex-serving members of the Australian Defense Force in the future and the failure rather by successive governments the ADF and the Departments of defense and Veteran Affairs to adequately protect the mental health and well-being of those who serve our country I'd like to begin by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today the none of all people and we pay our respects to the eldest past present and emerging and extend that respect to any other First Nations people who are here today or watching us across Australia on behalf of my fellow Commissioners Dr Peggy Brown AO and the honorable James Douglas KC I would also like to acknowledge and thank current and former members of the Australian Defense Force and their families for the unique and important sacrifices that they have made on behalf of our country I would also like to acknowledge the senior leadership from the ADF and other Commonwealth agencies for joining us here today this raw commission recognizes that every death by Suicide is a tragic event and that the reason over representation of defense and Veteran deaths by suicide in this country we acknowledge all of those who have lived the experience of suicide and we acknowledge the lives lost we acknowledge those who have made an attempt on their life and that's who are vulnerable to suicide and we acknowledge that as bereaved by Suicide the families friends colleagues and supporters of those who died I want to start today by taking you back to Australia's very first Royal Commission the SS Drayton Grange was a British Merchant vessel chartered to transport 1500 Australian soldiers returning home from the boa war in South Africa in July In 1902 considerable overcrowding and unsanitary conditions compounded by a lack of adequate medical supplies and poor weather led to outbreaks of measles and influenza influenza as well as lice infestation by this time the troop ship had doctor in Melbourne at the end of its month-long Voyage five soldiers were dead and another twelve died in the weeks that followed public outrage led to the Royal commission's act being enacted in August of 1902 and within days Australia's very first raw commission into the great and Drayton Graves was underway It ultimately found the officer commanding the troops wanted to do the best in a trying position but the best seem to be accepting things as they were rather than making strenuous efforts to improve them to endure rather than to overcome one might draw parallels between this dark chapter in our military history and the current tragedy at the core of this Royal commission the Royal commissioned the defense of Veteran suicide was established in 2021 after the then prime minister Morrison about the political pressure from cross-party MPS and Senators that followed a hard-fought and sustained campaign by the brave families of Australian veterans who had taken their own lives as well as former ADF members who were traumatized in various ways the numbers are heartbreaking there were at least 1600 deaths by Suicide between 1997 and 2020 of veterans who served on or after the 1st of January 1985. that's more than 20 times the number killed in active duty over roughly the same period it's important to stress that these numbers do not include serving an ex-serving members whose deaths were not officially recorded as suicide such as incidents where intent could not be actually determined nor do they include those who have served before 1985 including our Vietnam veterans who died by Suicide tragically the census lost senseless loss of life continues today really a week goes by that this Royal commission isn't alerted to the untimely death of another serving or ex-serving member it's unquestionably a national crisis for every life lost there are family friends colleagues and whole communities flooded by grief and anger researchers at the University of Kentucky in the United States have even put a number on it finding that for every suicide 135 people are impacted this role commissions terms of reference are deliberately broad requiring us to look into the risk and protective factors in relation to all aspects of military life this wide-ranging inquiry has now been running for about 26 months during that time we've been provided about 250 000 documents in response to more than one thousand compulsory notices that we've issued we've received approximately 4 200 Public submissions and we've heard from more than 300 Witnesses during 11 public hearing blocks in Capital Cities and Garrison towns across Australia we Commissioners have held 535 private sessions or private hearings if you like sitting one-on-one with people with lived experience of suicide or suicidality or military service and hearing their deeply personal stories and there are some 400 private sessions still to be undertaken throughout the rest of 2023 and 2024. the commission has also visited close to two dozen defense bases across the country hearing directly from current service men and women about the challenges and opportunities of life in our Navy Army and Air Force and we've worked closely with the academic and research Community veterans groups and charitable organizations commissioning research and conducting workshops around and round tables on a diverse range of issues High rates of suicide and suicidality among serving and ex-serving military personnel are not problems exclusive to Australia that's why in line with our terms of reference we Commissioners have looked at how Australia's five ice Partners Canada New Zealand the United Kingdom and the United States are responding to similar challenges in their military communities we have looked at what has and hasn't worked for our closest allies and what might work if applied in the Australian context so with all this information what have we learned so far first and foremost I want to take a moment to correct the common misconception that all veterans are broken we know that is definitely not the case the vast majority of those who serve in the ADF have rewarding careers and go on to successfully transition to civilian life the extensive range of skills abilities and attributes developed during the military service mean veterans are well regarded by the private sector employers across a diverse range of Industries particularly in a tight labor market such as we have at the moment and many make a valuable contribution to their communities and broader Society in their post-service life notably this includes many who have suffered physical or mental health impacts during their service sadly though this is not the case for all who serve some veterans struggle to find their post-service identity in the civilian world or to secure gainful employment some find it difficult to make meaningful Connections in their new community while no longer enjoying the ease of contact with their former Defense colleagues and some suffered due to the permanent physical and mental health impacts from their service all of the above can lead them to dark places in their mind including to suicide and suicidal Behavior we know that suicide in the military context is an extremely complex and multi-faceted phenomenon it's not just about mental health although mental health issues often do play A Part nor as is often assumed is it always related to trauma experienced in the theater of war although this too can clearly play a role it is not a reflection of the character of the individual or indicative of some inherent deficit in their psyche or their moral framework and lastly while suicide may not be predictable in every individual it must be viewed as preventable individuals whose suicide are quite often in contact with an agency or organization prior to their death we know the way in which agencies and organizations interact with veterans can and does impact their mental health and well-being they they these organizations therefore have a responsibility to act in ways that are alert to the risks and that reflect appropriate support and compassion for individuals who may have experienced trauma and are vulnerable as we have peeled back the layers of complexity has been much more defined that has been Illuminating let me share some of that with you we already know from existing Australian Institute of Health and Welfare data that the suicide rate for ex-serving males who served after 1985 and died between 1997 and 2020 was 27 percent higher when compared with the general Australian population and the suicide rate for rec serving females was 107 percent higher further analysis conducted by the aihw at the request of this rule commission has been more telling it found that suicide rates for ex-serving men who only served in the reserve forces is similar to the general Australian male population but the suicide rate for ex-serving men who served in the permanent forces is actually 44 higher than the general population Australian general population this differential is not seen in the suicide rates for ex-serving females significantly whether women served in the reserves or permanent forces their suicide rate is about twice that of the general Australian population Australian female population defense tells us its selection process delivers a healthy worker effect because it excludes individuals who don't meet the necessary physical and mental health requirements we also hear from defense that its members have easy access at least in theory to free and ongoing health care including mental health support and to the adf's suicide prevention program we're charged with inquiring into the link between High ranks of suicidality and permanent service in the Defense Force and evaluating the effectiveness of the health care and support provided by members by two members of the ADF the fact that suicide rates for those who have served in the permanent forces are higher than the Australian population he's worrying to address this defense must first acknowledge its role and actively and urgently embrace the changes needed the first step to fixing a problem is to acknowledge that a problem exists before moving on I'd like to make an important point to date the analysis of suicide data in relation to serving ADF members has been limited it has compared suicide rates among people in service to a limited metric the general Australian population significantly this metric includes employed and non-employed people so we're currently examining a new methodology whereby We compare suicide rates for serving ADF members only with the employed population of Australia this is a new way of looking at this data and we hope this will yield greater insights about whether or not service is actually a protective Factor historically the repeats to have been a reluctance by defense to accept suicide suicidality and mental health as a consequence of military service such issues were instead put down to a weakness in the individual's character or resilience rather than something for which the military organization must take some responsibility 50 years on from the end of Australia's involvement in the Vietnam War I acknowledge the lasting Legacy of our Vietnam veterans in being the first to raise awareness about mental health and PTSD their experiences have helped shape modern society's understanding of these incredibly complex issues which allows this Royal commission to examine in depth the ongoing tragedy that that is defense of Veteran suicide so what's going on what is contributing to this increased suicide risk particularly for those who have served in the permanent forces we've looked at all aspects of service life in our Quest For answers we've examined defenses recruitment practices including whether it's marketing campaigns create unrealistic expectations in new recruits we've looked at training processes we understand and accept their importance for building strength resilience and ADF preparedness but do they result in preventable career ending injuries we've explored the effect of postings and how the lives of Partners and children are regularly uprooted with work schooling friendships and support systems cut off before they've been properly established and have to be established Anew in their next location we know some IDF members are required to deploy for months and at a time often a short notice meaning long periods away from loved ones and sometimes they can't even tell their family where they're going for or for how long causing immense distress we not families play a vital role in members well-being research shows ADF Personnel perform better and serve longer when their families are happy well and stable during our Adelaide hearing commissioner Brown expressed her frustration at the amount of work defense still needs to do in this vital area particularly around Child Care domestic and Family Violence improve communication and the need for better data collection the supporting service families report was written by Sue Hamilton in 1986 identified many of these issues and here we are 37 years later and we continue to hear how many defense families are still doing it tough on the 15th of May this year during National families week the minister of Veteran Affairs and defense Personnel issued a media release in which he stated and I quote people are defense's most important capability and we recognize the importance of supporting the families that support those who serve having the support of their family is essential for ADF members to undertake their work and service of our nation while families are often on the front line when a veteran needs some extra support end quote Gwen churn the veteran family Advocate commissioner told us in evidence that families are being let down by a lack of investment from defense and the DVA we certainly heard Miss churn's frustration as she told us and I quote until every part of this echo system of support that is supposed to exist for families starts recognizing them talking to them and actually investing in programs and support services for them then it's just rhetoric and will continue to suffer and will continue to fray the fabric of Australian Society end quote families are under stress can break down we know family breakdown can be and tragically has been associated with suicide that is why it's vital that defense and DVA step up to the plate when it comes to providing appropriate support for military families when it comes to protecting the mental health and well-being of service men and women the evidence this raw commission has uncovered to date suggests there's been far too much talk and not enough action we know the chief of Defense Force appointed a brigadier a one-star officer to head up a new mental health and well-being Branch within defense we note this initiative commenced two years after the establishment of the royal commission from the evidence we heard in Perth it seems that that senior officer has not been provided all the information staff and resources required to appropriately address mental health and suicide prevention at an organizational level we've been told there will be no mature fully resourced and functioning Branch until at least 2025. to quote the Brigade she said they are building the plane as they're flying it given that we've known these issues have existed since at least the Vietnam War it seems extraordinary to hear that defense is now building the plane we note the defense was able to stand up without delay a very well-resourced task force led by a two-star officer to assist this raw Commission yet the fences approach to investigating and Reporting on suicides has progressed at a snail space while yet to find sufficient evidence of urgency in responding to these complex issues holistically even with this raw Commission on foot we've heard about attempts by the Navy clearance divers trust to offer data expertise and advice on issues of mental health safety and well-being in evidence the trust told this Royal commission that despite three suicides within their ranks over a two-year period there was no response from Navy we also heard about a key initiative shown to a significantly reduced injury rates among military personnel and improve the reporting of injuries having its funding withdrawn all of this raises serious questions as to whether defense is committed to making change in the best interest of its members or whether they're just going through the motions we've heard contemporary lived experience accounts of abuse assault bastardization bullying harassment discrimination misogyny and physical and sexual violence within the ADF we've been told of perpetrators being protected by a Code of Silence and an opaque military Justice process the defense abuse response task force which ran from November 2012 to June 2016 Shone a bright light into dark places within the ADF it examined 2 439 complaints of abuse bullying and harassment within defense prior to April 2011. 1751 or about 72 percent of those complaints were found to be credible and most received some compensation the dart report or defense abuse response task force as it was known should have been a wake-up call a pivotal moment that did not happen struggling to imagine that such Behavior persists in any Modern Day workplace what is even more alarming is that an employer could neglect or mishandle a complaint or misconduct or Target the complainant leaving them re-traumatized yet that is exactly what we're hearing former Air Force chaplain Reverend Dr Nikki Coleman told us how reluctant she felt the defense hierarchy has been to act against the male colleague whom she had accused of abusing her in 2019. we heard that Dr Coleman felt the institution protected her alleged abuser to the detriment of her own career reputation and mental health in concluding her testimony Dr Coleman sent a strong message to the defense leadership and I quote you lack the moral courage to stand up to the bullies he abusers and the sexual perverts who prey on the men and women who've signed up to protect their country and serve under you you lie when you say you take unacceptable behavior and more serious abuse seriously you lie when you say that people are your most important asset end quite we've also heard how there's who serve in the military can experience what's known as moral injury after witnessing something that goes against their moral or ethical values or when they feel betrayed by Those whom they've served witness br2 who appeared at our Brisbane hearings spoke of recovering the bodies of Asylum Seekers as part of his role in the Navy and the guilt he felt after those they managed to rescue ended up in offshore detention we've heard evidence about the link between physical injury and poor mental health outcomes including countless stories of sick and injured service Personnel being labored labeled malingeras and ostracized by their peers for declaring their injuries and seeking help seeking help early and engaging in effective treatments can lead to improved outcomes and prevent future problems unfortunately putting your hand up for help in the ADF is all too often seen as weakness in a male dominated culture that reveals strength we continue to hear evidence of the deep-rooted cultural and system-wide issues within the Department of Veteran Affairs that are impeding timely access to the support and services veterans and their families so desperately need we've heard many stories of veterans and their families being driven to the brink and in some tragic cases Beyond while waiting for years for their claims to it to be even looked at one frustrated veteran described a situation in a submission to the Royal commission and I quote there is a common saying that the paperwork hoops and hurdles you must climb over is deliberately designed to be that that hard veterans will either just give up or do themselves in either way the problem goes away end quote we note the positive impact of the recommendations contained in our interim report handed down in August last year government has moved quickly to harmonize complex legislation governing veterans entitlements and the DVA has been provided additional resources to clear the backlog of unprocessed claims at last count there are still just over 30 000 claims yet to be processed but that's down from around 43 000 a year ago we're not convinced based on the evidence that the level of fraud then claims justifies the often strongly adversarial approach taken by DVA in approving claims that has to change while it's good to see some progress being made we're very much aware there is still a lot to do for work for DBA to improve its ICT and Data Systems it's customer service and that adversarial culture which exists and which has left many veterans re-traumatized when forced to justify their claims for compensation Victorian Premiere Daniel Andrews told our mail been hearing that our service men and women are second guessed by DVA when lodging claims and I quote for many veterans there is a sense that they are not believed that agencies that ought to be working for them are operating more like an insurance company and not an especially good insurance company there are many ways that system can be improved and it starts with believing veterans and that when they make claims that they are supported not second guessed and not treated as if they were trying to cheat the system end quote during our Adelaide hearings the Secretary of DBA Alison fraim acknowledged she could not take away the hurt and distress that sub-optimal practices within DVA had caused many veterans but she said and I quote going forward we are committed to continuing to try and improve wherever we can end quote we will watch this face closely as we frame up our recommendations to be included in our final report I want to remind you that this Royal commission is not just looking at the ADF defense and DVA the scope of our inquiries covers a broad and complex landscape including commonwealth state and territory governments oversight bodies as well as health ex-service and other support organizations among others we recognize there are roles and responsibilities for state and territory governments in providing Health Services housing education and other services we're heartened to see a ministerial group for state and territory Veteran Affairs ministers which although in its infancy will examine ways to better coordinate and collaborate this is crucial we've also recognized the role of ex-service organizations which is crucial also and while there has not been effective collaboration I'd like to acknowledge the initiative taken by ex-service organizations towards establishing a national Peak body to represent and advocate for the needs of esos both large and small as well as veterans and their families it's a good example of a sector not waiting for the outcome of this raw commission instead listening and learning from our inquiries to date to make change which will have positive impacts on the mental health and well-being of our serving and ex-serving members Australia's defense capability primarily comes from the brave men and women who pull on the uniform of our Navy Army and Air Force and go to work each day to protect us serving an exterving ADF members must be treated fairly with dignity and respect with access to high quality And Timely health care and strong prospects of meaningful employment once they transition out of active service it's not hard to see that fixing the entrenched cultural and systemic issues that are impacting the mental health and well-being of members would also go a long way to solving the adf's Recruitment and Retention crisis at a time when Australia is trying to bolster its uniform Stocks by 30 percent to close to 80 000 by 2040. let's be clear this road commission does not seek to undermine our defense capability in any way we seek to help build a more resilient stronger and better ADF with a psychologically safe workplace to meet Australia's future defense challenges operationally when we first commenced this inquiry we did not expect to be stymied and stonewalled along the way we have faced significant delays in the provision of vital data and information sought from the fence as well as other challenges such as cabinet and confidence public interest immunity and excuse me and parliamentary privilege claims and the need to sensitively gather evidence without impacting issues of National Security this Royal commission is responding to a national crisis decades in the making despite the government establishing a royal commission and the legislature wanting certain issues investigated obtaining critical information from Commonwealth bodies in a timely manner has been difficult our success will require government and its agencies including the ADF defense and DVA to once and for all get on board and act the Stark reality is that despite 57 previous inquiries over the last 20 to 30 years examining the risk factors for suicide in our military community at almost 770 recommendations arising from those inquiries very little has actually changed people are still dying to this day we urge the Prime Minister relevant ministers and the leadership of defense and DVA to see this raw commission as an opportunity to drive the long overdue change that is required to ensure our brave men and women in uniform and their families have the support they need and deserve it's important to recognize that there will be no quick fix to these issues and real long-lasting and meaningful reforms will take time and the focus on these issues must not end with the work of this Royal commission accordingly we Commissioners believe in enduring powerful independent body is necessary to hold government the ADF defense DVA and other relevant agencies as well as state and territory governments to account to make sure that they prioritize the major long-term and complex reforms that are needed this body must not only be independent it must have the confidence of serving an ex-serving ADF members and seek direct and significant insignificant input from them it must be an either side body but not one that usurfs the leadership of the DVA or ADF nor one that absolves that leadership of its primary responsibility for veterans well-being and it must have sufficient power to deal with the issues it faces we will release a report on this entity in the coming months and consult further with key stakeholders before finalizing a recommendation to government bipartisan commitment is going to be required to ensure mistakes from the past do not continue we expect strong decisive leadership from both sides of Politics as well as cross-pension fees and Senators to ensure the final recommendations of this Royal commission are implemented and that the ADF defense and DVA are forever more held to account so that the well-being of past and present members and their families Remains the focus going forward it's not enough to support and reflect on the sacrifices of our veterans only on days of commemoration and Remembrance the theme of Suicide Prevention Week this year is we all have a role to play and nothing could be more true in relation to defense and Veteran suicide we do all have it all to play in holding government to account when it comes to ensuring the mental health and well-being of those who risk their lives each day in the service of our country voters in the media must maintain interest and demand action that has been lacking every one of us has an important role to play in protecting those who protect us Australia has let down its Veterans for far too long this Royal commission must be a call to action no longer can we allow the preventable deaths of our finest to be ignored thank you very much ladies and gentlemen um Nick can we just have you back at the coding for questions thanks sorry I've not done this before so much for the protocols they're with me that's good um look thank you very much that we now turned questions from our media members and um but also your fellow Royal Commissioners uh Peggy Brown and James Douglas who are here today they're available to um also chime in um as well if uh to elaborate on your answers um I'll start with the questions and you've been critical of of defense and defense leadership in in this speech and and comments at the Royal commission hearings the outline there things like um stonewalling receiving data through to sort of um too much talk not enough action on on responding to to Suicide Mental Health crisis in defense um you point out 57 inquiries into this issue and very good it was change what do you put it down to though in among defense and defense leadership for why there hasn't been changed is it culture is it lack of resources is it defense doesn't have the bandwidth to do with the various challenges it has to deal with what what what are you it's probably all of those things Andrew um we we want to acknowledge that there are many many good people and many good people in the senior leadership who are really trying hard to fix these problems but both historically and in contemporary times it hasn't been a huge Focus there hasn't been probably as much effort devoted to it as as many other issues that probably are just expressing in different ways but the reality is nothing will change and nothing will improve unless there is a strong Focus that there are accountability accountability mechanisms and that there is public reporting of the outcome so everybody knows who's doing what and whether it's being done well or not and then we hope to maintain contact with these issues and statistics and figures and the public and the media should take more interest than they have in the past one of the reasons problems Mount and fall over is when nobody's paying attention sometimes it's just neglect we're all busy you all have other things you know what you want to do and this isn't something and it walks through the door for you and says I've got a problem here you must deal with it now um that has to change um and then the final point I'd make and it's in relation to the accountability framework and investigation and disciplinary processes within the ADF there are certainly issues there that appear to have been weaponized on many occasions it appears a lot of people were punished or at least ostracized or has some sort of negative impact on their lives very unfairly and out of the thousands of submissions we've had the hundreds of private sessions we've had and the hundreds of public evidence that we've heard there is no denying that fact cool all right I'll send you our our book members here now and uh first question for Matthew Knott uh thank you very much for the speech Matthew from the city Morning Herald and the age uh you have the ahead of the Australian Defense Force uh here and I'm sure if he was up on the podium he would say that there's no higher priority than the health and well-being of other people who work for the nation's military uh what would you say are the things that need to be done right now to improve this because it's going to take a little while until the final a royal commission comes out I think we've probably said that both to the leadership and others what the probably the biggest issue I'd want to raise at the moment is that they must all see this raw commission as an opportunity not a threat not an enemy but a a group that's been set up to genuinely try and fix these problems arrive at Solutions which must be embraced acted on and implemented to the fullest once we finish our journey cool next question from Ben packer thank you commissioner for your speech um knowing what you know now would you recommend a career in defense to a potential recruit and do you think that a defense will ever get on top of its recruiting challenge in the absence of deep reform in this regard so for the first question I I wouldn't put people off from joining but I would be giving them if it's someone related to me or otherwise someone I cared about I'd be giving them a lot of advice and I'll be hopefully monitoring as they go along to make sure that if anything does go wrong that it's acted on appropriately and in a timely manner and the second question do we think they're ever going to go and get on top of their recruitment goals I think they can but the first step there's probably two steps one is a genuine recognition of the extent of the problem the magnitude of the issues and then the second step is actually dealing with them in a more timely and hard hard sort of fashion so that um once all of those issues are sorted I don't see any reason why people won't flop to join that they hear these stories and no doubt they know people who they can speak to on a personal level and they hear about what's happened to some of the people who were treated unfairly and it's off-putting but there has to be a recognition of the problem and then it has to be a serious dealing with the issues how do you find um coming out of a background with police you know it's probably in some similarities to defense you know dangerous work very blokey environment very stressful environment do you see para he'd be drawn parallels there between your ex professional experience in the policing and and what happened in defense we've had a lot of um we've done a lot of thinking about that and with my background I can certainly sympathize with the both uniform services with a highly tiered and you when you leave you it's like you feel you're leaving your tribe after 35 or 40 years it affects you it definitely affects you to answer your question there are many similarities and but there are many differences as well but certainly in issues of looking after people and mental health PTSD and the way people are treated which lead them to go down this dark Road the similarities are starting it's very very similar we have met and spoken with the chiefs of police from Iran Australia and New Zealand and we're trying to learn what lessons they have what worked what didn't and just to see what may be suitable to apply to our space in the military space but it's certainly an issue that it has to be looked at uh next question Karen Middleton hello commissioner thank you for your speech Karen Middleton from the Saturday paper I hope you'll indulge me I have a couple of questions firstly it's pretty unusual to have a royal commissioner address the national press club before their Royal commission is completed you've leveled a lot of criticisms today and that's interesting I'm wondering why you felt the need to give this address does it suggest people aren't listening to you and secondly when we in the media put questions to defense about some of the evidence at your Royal commission as I did recently we get a fairly stock standard statement in response that says defense is very committed to addressing the tragic scourge of suicide in in its ranks and among veterans but if I weigh that up against the criticisms you're making about the Department of Defense the ADF and the Department of Veterans Affairs it suggests to me that the actions are not matching the words defense has a range of processes formal processes to address and investigate matters brought before them either events or incidents or allegations primarily their inquiry officer inquiry reports and the Inspector General of the ADF as well I'm wondering given what we've heard at your Royal commission a number of times and preceding that about suggestions that those inquiries don't always get to the whole truth it starts to look like a pattern and it reaches back two decades in my experience I'm wondering what you think about those processes the effectiveness of them are they properly designed to get to the whole truth or are they designed to be seen to be looking for it but maybe not always finding it um I'll probably answer the first question first if I can remember it so why why did you yep we made a conscious decision to speak out at the moment because we're at a point where we feel that the issues that we've uncovered have not been noticed absorbed people have not been all that interested in them and one of the things that must happen for things to improve is that there must be more interest both from the public and I have to say the media on these issues and when reporting begins then people begin to notice and certainly politicians take notice as well this is these are decades long in the making these problems we're not blaming individuals and we're not blaming anyone individually but what happens is there's an accumulation of wrongs and then the longer it goes the worse it gets for the individuals we have to bring it out now we have to talk to people about what's going to happen when this Royal commission ceases to exist because otherwise we'll be just the 59th inquiry and there are people in this room who have accused us of that you're just another inquiry you're not going to achieve anything they won't establish anything after you leave and nothing will change and there are probably some who feel that's a good thing or just sit tight this will pass and we'll just go on doing what we've always done so we had to bring it all out into the open the second question in relation to the investigative process and I'm familiar with investigative processes the the thing is there are clearly issues and if you saw the evidence last week we delved into the Inspector General and their operations and again there are good people doing their best there but and we haven't reached any conclusions yet so I can't tell you yes it's flawed and we're not happy or this is what we think ought to happen we're not at that point yet but we took a lot of evidence last week that causes grave concern including issues where families of loved ones who had had inquiries conducted into their suicide or death were not told of the outcome and it was discovered by mistake that they hadn't and then they've gone back and are obviously fixing it now that there are definitely issues in that space and it is something that affects families deeply thank you next question from an artistic economy thank you very much for your time today the backlog of veterans claims may not be cleared by the deadline and part of that reason is how they are categorized would you support changing how the backlog is classified for example only including claims in it that haven't been processed within a certain amount of time I think the answer is yes but not only is there a great deal of work going on at the moment in DVA and I think a recognition that the problems are such that they need to be dealt with fairly quickly and promptly and and efficiently but there's a whole range of initiatives that have been looked at and some have commenced that I would hope will also help bring the number down and more importantly we have discussed with the secretary who's present with us today and and there are moves to look at more and more digitization or making things more electronically you know suitable for people to say they don't have to fill forms in but do things electronically perhaps even on a phone that sort of stuff is happening in other places they are being looked at we understand and hopefully they'll land somewhere where they can be employed across the board to make things better I think that the backlog will disappear I'm hoping as soon as possible but there are issues apart from the backlog that DVA is trying to address at the moment and it's the same as the ADF it's culture it's about how people feel I could act it's about how people feel they can you know do the wrong thing perhaps and not be held to account they're the issues that will probably be harder to solve than the backlog thank you have you been surprised with DVA are there many actually former veterans working in within DVA who sort of have an understanding of these issues and perhaps some sympathy you talked about like insurance it's treated almost like an insurance sort of agent in terms of dealing with with with cases and stuff like that I mean uh the other people in DVA have much knowledge of what's actually going on yep there are many many good people working there at the moment and achieving great results there's also some not so good but there is a percentage of people and I can't remember the exact number who are in fact veterans and there are targets and I understand the DVA is actually targeting recruitment from the veteran Community to get them in there in there and one of the things we looked at in the United States of America is that a much larger percentage of the workforce and in fact in the federal Public Service something like a third of the workforce are veterans that doesn't just happen though it has to be there has to be a strategy it has to be a plan and then it has to be supported from above both from within the the Defense Force and then the later on from the government departments to make sure that it does happen it is a very positive thing and with commend it uh next question Daniel Hurst Daniel Hurst from Guardian Australia commissioner um the Albanese government recently knocked back a request for another extension of the inquiries work what would you have been able to achieve if that extension had been granted that you can't achieve with the current reporting deadline and On a related note you talked about the stonewalling from defense when it came to document requests who do you hold responsible for that is it the secretary of defense is it the CDF or is it happening at a political level in the defense Minister's office the request for an extension was made by us we felt there were some issues we could have looked at in more depths but we also accept that it's important for government to begin to implement major reform and it's difficult to do that not impossible but difficult to do that if we exist we accepted that we've got a plan and we will get the job done in terms of delays and and the inability to access documents and so on I I think I'm probably going to be a little bit controversial here we're not the first Royal commission to to come up against these walls um we have looked at other raw commissions and we've made inquiries about what their issues were and it's very very similar there is simply a bureaucracy if you like particularly in Canberra but probably in the states as well and you know frankly there are a lot of legal efforts made probably with the best intentions but they are so strictly focused on a strictly legal aspect that things that move as well as they should or as quickly as they should and it's certainly been our experience so it's not Richard miles or Peter Dutton no I don't think I'm not aware of any interference from a political level thank you yeah is it a documents though is it sort of like um is it an exercise in backside covering by people or is it just a sort of bureaucratic um you know goes to the cultural secrecy that it infects so much of government I think it's probably all of that next question from Melissa code hi commissioner Melissa code from the Mandarin I'd like to ask about this Horizon body that you describe after the Royal commission wraps up which is this recommendation for an enduring and Powerful independent body which must have the confidence of serving an ex-serving service personnel are there comparable models you considered that this body would emulate and also what do you mean when you say powerful how do you envisage it will capture trust among this desperate ecosystem you describe of ADF defense DBA but also the state and territory jurisdictions sorry what was the first part of the question again what does powerful means powerful means I think they need raw commission Powers as far as why we recommended and what we think it ought to look like you know as the old saying goes what's the definition of a Madman someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the result to come out differently we can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and the suicide rate does not budge does not shift we have to do something different and from all our research what we found is that if you have a mechanism a strong mechanism that follows up on implementing recommendations that demands answers to certain questions that reports publicly Sunshine being the best disinfectant then you might get somewhere in terms of Precedence there is a committee of experts in the United States that reports I think it's annually to Parliament to their Congress and is an act of Congress that empowers them to do so and the report can't be delayed or denied or altered by any bureaucrat or anybody else that sort of mechanism is what we think would work there's also another example in Victoria the state coroner publishes as I understand it a quarterly Report with all the inquests they've held the recommendations made who's responsible for them and what they've done or haven't done it's not rocket science it's simply saying someone's looked at these issues here are things that need to be done who's responsible so you have the column with the person responsible the the organization responsible and ask them to report on a regular basis to make sure it's finally acquitted that hasn't happened in Australia do you imagine that any of the sort of stumbling blocks to access information efficiently by the commission might be also experienced by this proposed body you recommend sorry say that again so some of the complaints that you had which are very common to Royal conditions um cabinet in confidence public interest immunity parliamentary privilege do you think there might be any challenges with this independent body in collating data and accessing information that the Royal commission has also experienced I mean I'll be getting way ahead of myself but I would expect if such a body was accepted and was established that they would ask for powers to surmount those problems so they can do their job more effectively thank you uh next question from Leah McLennan at Leah McLennan from the ABC have you had a chance to meet with relevant minister to discuss the issues that you're addressed today and and if yes what sort of response have you been getting so far we have met with now all of the ministers who are involved in including the Attorney General on a couple of occasions look the response has been positive by and large but they also have their own restrictions and they have their own issues that they must address and and acquit but the reality is there has been a failure in political leadership over a number of decades in in anyone taking enough interest in this and making sure that things are followed up on we did visit the United States and we noted that there is more interest in our view from the political class in these issues to do with veterans in the military to be fair they have a much larger percentage of elected members who are in fact veterans in the US and it's probably just a cultural issue um but there seem to be much more systemic deficient follow-up on recommendations demands for acquittal of all ads issues people nearly everyone was back who said they have to report regularly go up and give evidence on the hill as they call it which is Congress about what they've done about recommendations from previous inquiries and quite a number of the people we spoke to said they were also called on regularly to brief the White House not necessarily the president himself but his staff so there is a great deal of interest from the president and the Congress in the U.S about issues to do with following up on recommendations that affect military and Veteran communities we would hope that can be mirrored in Australia thank you on that point about did what you've learned from the US you mentioned you've gone to the other five eyes countries as well or Partners as well about what is is there anything they're doing in particular that sort of has struck you as the sort of the right approach and and go yeah this is what we should do right now or could do in a few years sort of thing there are many many good ideas and probably far too many to discuss today but the Canadians have a very good approach to helping veterans Lodge and appeal against claims being rejected the British have a an organization called copsio CRV SEO which is a true umbrella group for all the ex-service organizations it's accepted as such it demands collegiality and cooperation and collaboration as well as governance from all the organ you have to register with them if you want to call yourself an ex-service organization so there are pockets of ideas New Zealand have a very good idea they change their sort of ab initio training the initial training that they have about eight or ten years ago they're still yelling at people the parade ground on the pack marches and all of those things but they also have sizable elements in the training about critical thinking emotional intelligence and a whole bunch of other things that help equip people give them the tools to look after their staff we thought there's some good ideas there as well okay our next question from Nick Stewart thanks very much for your speech I'd like to probe into the exact location where these sort of things are occurring um you as you know the military is a series of little families there are ships there are there are battalions and there are squadrons I I was wondering what sort of differences do for example the Air Force as I understand have a far lower rate of this sort of thing happening if so why are there particular factors that are working to protect the Air Force which are not working in in ships or in squadrons and also looking at it if you have a a cultural issue which is within say a particular Battalion you you would expect something like that is something that that the military could take uh actually affect change in but if this problem is diverse and and permeates the entire military um uh surely it's something to do with the people we're recruiting uh you mentioned the difference between the reserves for example and the the the are we selecting a particular group of people who may be more at risk of this sort of uh uh suicide or or such ideation um to answer the first question I I don't have clear in my head at the moment any stats that I can give you in relation to how things are better or worse than one or the other but certainly the initial impression we had is that the Air Force was somewhat lower in terms of complaints and so on but you also have to bear in mind there are people here who could talk about this in a far more informed way than me it's a different environment if you're in a submarine for two or three months human nature being what it is conflicts the rise and so on um if you're in a conflict Zone and you're literally living out of each other's pockets for weeks at a time these things happen the Air Force just have it obviously operate in a different environment and you'd expect that to be a little bit gentler on on people um sorry what was the second question whether whether or not uh it's a matter of a self-selecting group right yep it's um we've certainly had some evidence particularly from the U.S that even those who had some issues perhaps mental health or otherwise who declared that before they were selected and came in and they helped them deal with those issues and fix whatever problems they had the the chances of them having problems down a track we're not we're not any worse than anybody else so I don't think it's a problem with selecting the wrong people I think there are issues pretty much from retraining onwards that contribute to those issues arising in the damage sometimes that happens to people but we have said and I'll say it again at the vast majority we think of people who join actually have a positive experience and come out and go on to life but there is a sizable group who have had issues which are absolutely Dreadful and they must be addressed we're going back to the top of the batting order and uh Ben Peckham uh thank you commissioner Ben Packham from the Australian again um you talk about that long list of past inquiries and um and and the impediments to change a culture lack of political will I guess money as well would also be one um do you fear a situation where the Albanese government doesn't stump up the uh the money the investment needed for the sort of deep reform that you are calling for and I guess what is your message to the government on that front um I guess my message and we delivered in fact very recently is they must see this raw commission as a call to action they must see this as an opportunity not a threat we're not an enemy we're trying to help the ADF be a better organization in terms of resilience caring after people giving them the ideas that they need hopefully to implement to make all of that happen um I I'd I would be disappointed if the recommendations have come out of this Royal commission simply form the 58th inquiry and are filed we're the first raw commission and many people have pointed that out to us and they've said there is great expectation and we feel the weight of History following on all those other inquiries where not enough was achieved we have to make sure that as I said you can't keep doing the same thing and expecting the result to come out different we've got to do something different and for us having an entity that monitors this space reports publicly raises awareness in the community in the media the public has got to be a better way of doing it uh back to Karen Middleton hello Commissioner Karen Middleton again um you handed down an interim report last year and one of the recommendations was seeking something to address uh what you I think described as the legal obstacles that prevent a royal commission from receiving evidence or information that's been presented to a parliament it's something we hear regularly relating to quasi-judicial bodies that's either evidence to a committee or given in the chambers or in a report that's tabled in the Parliament and I'm wondering is that part of the reason we do keep seeing inquiry after inquiry because they have to keep reinvestigating the same thing they can't use some of the evidence that's been presented like that before have you raised that directly with the government separately from it being in your report what do they say is there any Appetite For What would be quite a significant legal change to allow a royal commission like yours to access information that's already been gathered I think the short answer is is being considered but we don't have a definitive no or a definitive yes yet but if I could just raise one example about three or four years ago the uh the National Audit office did a report on whether the defense generally have followed up and complied with recommendations from previous inquiries and he had some criticism he found them one thing that report is significant for us it's nothing to do with suicide but it discusses whether defense generally have been following up on inquiries and it would have been a good point of discussion for us with them that report was published on his website and it was I think there may be a press conference and it was discussed widely probably thousands of people have seen it but it was stabled in Parliament therefore attracts parliamentary privilege therefore and it is accurate the Commonwealth argued that you can't use it rely on it question anyone about it um you you have to find a long way around to ask questions about it because it has parliamentary privilege because it's been tabled in Parliament I'm not a lawyer and I don't know whether my colleagues James Douglas may want to add to what I'm about to say but it just seems to me as a Layman this isn't a satisfactory situation for inquiries that have been commissioned by the government to look at serious issues James would you like to add anything this is James Douglas my fellow commissioner and a former Supreme Court judge from Queensland who knows a lot more than me about legal stuff it is a an issue which we have raised with the attorney and to use Nick's example for example we might be able to receive that report into evidence but we can't draw any inferences from it and we wouldn't really be able to cross-examine Witnesses about it or see we're gone so it's from our point of view a significant issue that we are still talking about we have been talking about I would just add that we are not the first Royal commission to raise these issues formally and otherwise and I understand the Australian law Reform Commission has also commented on this and saying it needs to change thank you uh next question Daniel Hurst Daniel Hurst from the guardian again just on a potential structural issue uh do you believe the Department of Veterans Affairs has been over reliant on external labor and to what extent do they need to rebuild their internal capability and Workforce um I don't think they had any choice there was Staffing cap brought in as I understanded by the Abbott government and the work did not stop it simply escalated the number the demand for around for services went through the roof the answer the only answer available I think at the time was to revert to labor hire but I also understand and I won't speak for the department but I understand they are consciously moving away from that to full-time staff and there has been an injection of 500 people uh coming or have come already on book on the books as permanent employees to address that issue but I agree with your proposition it's not good to have temporary staff who are not invested in the work or the clientele or the agency Yeah final question for today from Morris Riley the club's chief executive thanks Andrew and thank you commissioner for being here today mine's a sort of a broader question on media reporting about suicide is does is you're inquiries you're looking into how media reports on suicide and should there be a differentiation between the area that you're looking in versus civilian suicides is there is there a question there for Australian press Council or others to perhaps review the way in which we report suicide you know balancing out the public interest um I think they should all be treated in the same way and perhaps I could ask my fellow commissioner Peggy to comment on it but before she does I just the Canadians have published guidelines in a little booklet that the media use which actually address the issue of how to report on military suicides there has to be some sensitivity attachment from a previous life I know there are guidelines and the media by and large were some exceptions abide by the sort of accepted rules in terms of doing the right thing and not causing harm by publishing details of how and whatever that you wouldn't want to to be out there that may actually upset someone or cause them to emulate it in some way but so there are Frameworks in place but it's it could always be improved I don't think it needs to be differentiated between military and civilians but Dr Peggy Brown would you like to say anything he's been put on the spot I don't really have anything to offer in addition to that I think Nick's absolutely correct in terms of reporting about suicide veteran suicide in that sense should be treated the same as the rest of the population I think what we do need to stress however is that we shouldn't be stigmatizing veterans by by singling them out in a way I mean it's important that the issue is recognized but each individual account um potentially how it how it is dealt with and reported in the media can either add to the stigma or the sense that all veterans are broken or it can help to to kind of normalize it in in not in you know normalizing suicide but in terms of seeing Veterans as part of a broader cohort of vulnerable individuals who ultimately take their own lives I knew she would have something much more valuable than what I said thank you I thank you very much and I think just a reminder again for current and former Personnel their families you can contact open arms on 1-800-01046 or lifeline on one three one double one four please everyone thank you very much for today's address foreign [Music]