Reaction to Dr. Ann Burgess on Freeing the Menendez Brothers

foreign welcome to another episode of surviving the Survivor the podcast that promises to bring you the very best guests in all of True Crime and today is no exception uh you heard last night we had uh Dr Ann burgesson of Netflix mind Hunter Fame one of the original uh members of the behavioral uh analysts unit at the FBI uh she also uh testified in the first case um on behalf of Eric Menendez and on the on the show last night said that she believes both Menendez brothers should be freed as does domestic violence attorney Wendy Murphy so we're going to weigh in and hear from uh two more Fame criminal defense attorneys and get their take uh and some of the legal wranglings that are going on as well I tried to get uh Mark garagos who uh is representing both brothers who reached out I apologized he could not make it today he will come on the show in the very near future to discuss this but um for those who do not know Lyle and Eric Menendez were convicted of the grizzly 1989 shotgun murders of their parents Jose and Mary Louise Kitty Menendez that of course happened at the family's sprawling Beverly Hills mansion they've been behind bars ever since I think they've actually been behind bars since around 1989 1990 so it's been quite some time the question now is do they have a new shot at Freedom after this bombshell letter surface from uh the menendez's cousin which we'll get to as well as a new documentary that's out um with some claims from the a member of the boy band menudo who says he too was raped by Lyle and Eric's father Jose Menendez without further ado best guest today Ann Bremer Bremner is a trial attorney one of the nation's most recognized legal analysts in her 35 years of practice she has been lead counsel for many highly publicized court cases she was a prosecuting attorney for the Criminal Division of the King County prosecutor's office in Seattle from 1983 to 1988. you've seen her everywhere Fox CNN MSNBC and headline news and speaking of everywhere Tim Jansen was just on CNN talking about the uh Trump indictment uh he is the famed Tallahassee criminal defense attorney he's a partner in The Firm that bears his name Jansen and Davis he's handled all kinds of complex civil administrative and criminal litigation and he spent five years as a federal prosecutor Tim Jansen to you first uh just before we get started uh these guys like I said have been behind bars I believe since 1989 they've been in jail or 1990 um have they served their time should they be freed in your opinion or are they uh a pair of dangerous Killers what do you what do you say well you look at the facts and you know their defense was able sexually assaulted except the fact that they claimed and gave false information to the police said they went to the movies said they came back and found their parents and they were only discovered because of a psychologist whose girlfriend or end up talking about the confession um the second trial was a different than the first trial obviously had separate trials sexual abuse was allowed in the first Trials of each the defendant the next trial came and uh the judge combined the trials no sexual abuse was allowed and they were convicted so now we have new information new evidence and new evidence is the letter to the cousin who recently died the question the Court's going to have is it really new evidence or why didn't Eric bring it to the attention of his lawyers at the time that he wrote the letter um and then secondly we the New Evidence is the menudo um member who was their band along with Duran Duran and Eurythmics were being helped by the father Jose at RCA records so there's credibility there that menudo would have been involved in around Jose Menendez I think the habeas corpus by by uh garagos is perfect because the appeals have run out I think um a judge could possibly and the state could come back and commute the sentence and say listen we really think this evidence should have come in it's unfair they really had a reasonable defense that was not kept allowed in now they might have been convicted of manslaughter which might have been 15 20 years they've served over 30. so I think there is a basis for a court a prosecutor or even the governor to maybe commute the sentence but unlike Wendy I wouldn't throw a parade for him like she exposed last night we do want victims to come forward but we certainly don't want to have parades for people that shot god and killed their parents shooting them like 15 times we don't want that and uh good good to hear uh your side there Tim um we'll get into some of Dr Ann burgess's testimony um you know she says that the children were basically irreparably irreparably harmed by both their parents and uh really felt fearful and it was kind of a uh bad pun I'm about to say didn't mean it but a trigger moment for them um especially leading up to the murders uh there was a moment and talks about where a foyer door was closed and Eric thought that they were about to be confronted uh potentially killed themselves and that's why they reacted the way they did um and Bremner your uh bird's eye view of this uh you know you've been around a long time you've covered a lot of high profile cases um what are your thoughts do you think that these boys now men uh deserve to be freed at this point well you know I it seems to me there was a change in the law where basically the Hideous would be well grounded because if a defendant was not allowed to put in an abuse you know excuse we've called it defense um and then there could be grounds for the ground behavias petition and the last time I looked at this case and I've actually talked to Eric at one point on the phone he was very sympathetic but I think that they were disallowed in the second trial I mean it was severely curtailed their claim of their own imperfect self-defense defense so it seems to me that this could be successful I've always wondered why they shot Kitty even if they talked about a trigger moment or anything else the fact of the matter is they were focusing on their on their dad Jose but they killed their mom too and really gruesome crime so I think they should be set free legally probably um but morally I look at this case it's one of the most gruesome crimes we've seen in this nation you know over many many decades um can you tell us a little more how long ago was it that you talked to Eric and was he looking for some legal advice you know I can't remember exactly it was part of a documentary that you can find on the web but it was um produced by Nancy saslow in San Francisco and it was called um Eric Menendez speaks I believe and and I I found his rendition of what happened to be very sympathetic and then with this bombshell uh new information about others being abused or it was one of the person being abused um and he didn't talk to me as a lawyer but he was you know looking to explore what I've just described which is is that there was a change in law saying if you at any time it was basically retroactive at any time you were disallowed uh imperfect self-defense um substantially then you may be entitled to habeas or some relief and uh Tim uh for those of us who are not lawyers or legal Minds myself included uh what is a writ of habeas corpus why did garagos go down that road and he says uh that typically uh the court will respond within 45 days and that that timeline is definitely coming upon us very soon but in broader terms what is garagos angling for legally here well he has no other legal mechanism because all the appeals have run out the habeas basically in Latin has produced a body produce the body uh we have a body here that knee is is improperly where it should be uh it gives the court jurisdiction to review uh I think it's the proper motion um and I think the law has changed that if sexual abuse was not allowed and there's ample evidence to to prove it or at least enough that a court would probably allow it in at a trial I think the habeas will be very very successful now whether they get a new trial or they get a commuted sentence or time served um you know the governor could always go back and commute the sentence I believe I know in Florida he could I don't know what California I think he could uh I think that's another possibility maybe the last last thing but and the state attorney who's handling that matter now who the elected official could review it and they could join in the habeas and ask for a credit time served um and to you uh by the way Julie fruit in the UK love Tim Jansen no comment about the hair yet but I'm sure those will come in momentarily Tim um so uh just taking a step back uh in history here the the two boys were tried separately then young men um and both juries were deadlocked so then they joined uh together and were tried um as one entity and uh that's when they were found guilty but in this second trial uh testimony related to the abuse allegations was sharply limited uh by the judge and even when it came to um and uh burgess's testimony in that trial and I'm looking for the direct quote here um the judge basically I don't say admonish the jurors but uh said something to the effect of don't take her testimony as gospel because they presented her as this expert witness um and Bremner are we living in very different times could you ever imagine a case today where they would completely omit or not completely but for the for the majority of the trial uh omit big portions of all this sexual abuse of all these allegations of sexual abuse no and of course this is a long time ago but remember this second judge was I think very upset with the way the first trial played out and wanted to correct what he saw as not an injustice but something that was not appropriate I.E he wouldn't allow poor TV cameras I believe in the courtroom a second time you know severe liquor tailed the the imperfect self-defense which is the sexual abuse and and um self-defense that today would be very acceptable as a defense but back then this judge was saying I'm going to totally have a straightforward trial and what he did was basically allow a conviction by accommodating on this expert but also disallowing evidence which would have supported their their defense hmm I think Anne froze up there a ton go ahead Anne oh I just I'm just saying that the second judge tried to correct what he thought was uh an imperfect unjust trial because there's TV coverage it was the first I think it was the first Court TV trial yes and it was also one where there was you know all this evidence that he thought shouldn't come in so he went it's like the penalope swings he went exactly the opposite direction no TV cameras none of this defense and by the way this expert you know there's not a lot of foundation for what this expert has to say so it was inevitable I think that there would be guilty verdicts in the second time and uh of course the OJ trial came in between and uh that was a circus so I think that weighed as well but uh Tim um to you same same question I mean can you can you imagine in 2023 if um if suspects were sexually assaulted in the manner that Lyle and Eric claimed to have been and a judge not allowing it um do you see a courtroom today um you know disallowing that kind of testimony I don't think they would today but I will tell you in my experience I've tried hundreds of cases judges make decisions on cases and you can tell in their rulings how they feel about a case and some they they sometimes they're supposed to be fair but they they're partial too and and they get sometimes too involved they're supposed to be the referee but like a baseball umpire they can control the game um they have they're active they can be very controlling on what testimony if that judge says don't treat her testimony as gospel I would have gone to the bench I would have asked for a mistrial that the judge was involving himself in credibility of a witness before the jury uh I recall one judge where the jury acquitted the defendant and before the jury left the judge said I just want to let you know he did this crime before like five years ago but I wasn't allowed to tell you that I just want you to know that before you all leave horrendous basically killing the jurors saying what crap they were we don't need judges like that we don't need judges like that this judge looked like he wanted to fix what he thought was wrong in the first two trials he wasn't going to have TV he wasn't going to let the shenanigans of his so-called sexual abuse and look what happened the boys didn't get a fair trial now they should have been convicted of manslaughter but their sentence would have been completely different than what they got uh and I found that quote actually but uh Eric Menendez uh testified during that trial that his father had molested him uh from the age for 12 years beginning at the age of 6 to 18. uh prosecutors used the word uh fiction when it came to abuse and Stanley Weisberg who was a judge judge Stanley Weisberg he warned yours not to take Ann burgess's testimony as gospel so knowing that would you have done the same thing as Tim just uh alluded to would you have gone up to the uh bench and asked for a mistrial right away how would you have handled it well probably and I think Leslie Abramson was the heroine the hero of the first trial and was not involved in the second so that was a different dynamic dynamic as well she's very dedicated and did an excellent job in the first trial I mean fiction and prosecutors shouldn't use those kind of words anyway I mean you should basically do the people's representative and you win when you made out justice so for a judge to basically come in and say something like that sure I'd be up there asking for a Miss trial because there was a lot of unfairness in the second time um Tim to you let's get into some of this evidence here uh the first is this letter and we went over this with Anne last night so some of this might be a little redundant to the audience but there was a letter um Eric sent to his cousin who is now deceased I believe he died of a drug overdose his name was Andy Cano um and somehow this surface got into his mother's hands Andy's Mother's Hands who then gave it to a journalist and it came out recently but this letter and this is a direct quote now from Eric uh to his cousin back before the crimes took place he says I've been trying to avoid Dad it's still happening Andy but it's worse for me now I cannot explain it he's so overweight that I can't stand to see him I never know when it's going to happen and it's driving me crazy every night I stay up thinking he might uh come in and I need to put it out of my mind I know what you said before but I'm afraid so obviously had conversations here Tim uh you just don't know Dad like I do he's crazy he's warned me a hundred times about telling anyone especially Lyle I mean Tim that gives you a real window into the fear um the trepidation and the obviously disgusting molestation that was going on um now with this letter surface sing um is it justifiable for a judge to look at this or will they simply kind of say why didn't Eric present this 30 years ago well you got to look at it now in Nevada you got to look at it right now is it evidence that would be relevant and admissible in a trial and I think everybody will look at it and say he was describing his present sense at a time prior to the event it's clear what he's discussing he's not talking sex but when you look at that my father is disgusting I can't it's clearly and it was eight months I believe before the murders so he wasn't pending this letter like 24 hours before he did it I think it's reliable I think it would be admissible um and I think the question is why didn't Eric bring it to the attention of his lawyers maybe he did and maybe the cousin you send an investigator out they talked to the cousin he goes I don't know what you're talking about um then you had it you had a dead end you you know you wrote it or maybe he forgot with all the abuse he went through um maybe he didn't recall it but now that you have it it's clear that lawyers didn't have it Leslie Abrams no one would certainly have moved to get that document in and introduced it so I think it's clear I think it's relevant I think it um could be admissible and I think it's a good basis but then you add on the menudo band member and that's a separate person and distinct from family member who corroborates the activities or actions of Jose Menendez um it's STS nation is always keeping me straight here um and Mia says he died in 2003 although ironically I feel like 2003 is recently but it's not and uh and then Heather tells me uh Andy's mom found the letter while cleaning his room after his death but that was a long time ago um and then it resurfaced recently but what kind of uh legal water does a letter like this hold in now well I think it's Tim just described but in a lot it's the president's sense impression and it also could be used to revive what may be argued to be recent fabrication by the defendants there's a couple ways they can come in under the evidence rules and it's very striking I mean corroboration cooperation cooperation that's what you need in a case like this they can come forward and say you know we we were scared this was you know imperfect self-defense and the state comes back and says yeah you were like you know spending money on fancy cars and Rolexes and everything else and you did it for money so it's important to have this kind of corroborating evidence come in for the defense and do you happen to know uh anything about the inheritance here or laws regarding this are there any laws preventing inheritance even if it's Manchester or at least in in Washington state oh absolutely Slayer statute I mean if you've caused the death of the person you're going to inherit from um your Sol I mean you're not going to get the money and and so um but in this particular case you know that they they would never have been found out if they hadn't there hadn't been basically a disclosure to the psychologists or psychiatrists and and then this argument by the state that there was a threat Etc and all of a sudden it comes in that there was a confession so if they were doing very well until that huge mishap in their case um where they completely toot themselves I think and it's just amazing to me that with the privilege with a therapist psychologist a psychiatrist that that evidence also ultimately came in against them uh Carolyn uh tell me she joined patreon thank you so much uh your name is not lighting up in green I will have the chief technical officer resolve that we're uh surviving the Survivor at gmail if you're still having a problem uh reach out but thank you again and look at this a global show with henchy held tuning in from Israel the Holy Land wow um watching us all the way there so uh there is a documentary uh that came out called uh menudo and the Menendez brothers boys betrayed and uh Tim in that um the band member Roy rosello and there's a lot of band members of menudo who kind of uh went in and out uh over the years but in this docu-series Roy russello alleges that Jose Menendez of course Lyle and Eric's father that he molested drugged and raped him um when uh a teen when he was still a teenager Roy was uh performing with the band of course Jose Menendez was the head of RCA records um and Roy rosello says and I quote here that's the man here that raped me that is the pedophile it's time for the world to know the truth um and went on to discuss that uh at Great length um is there an issue here number one of credibility because it took them so long although it takes people who are sexually abused a long time to come out and Burgess was saying in a lot of cases especially men they never come out but um how does this hold up in a court of law I think that's true um I had a case one time where a young man I was representing a defendant and the young man did not want to come in and testify at a trial that the older gentleman gave him alcohol and performed oral sex on him and I'm waiting for a sexual battery charge and lo and behold the state files an information for a misdemeanor battery and and I found out later it was because the victim said there was no way in hell he was going to walk into a courtroom and say another man performed oral sex on him victims do and I can understand why a band member who's publicly profiled out there going around in a you know he's not going to want to say he was molest and raped by the head of the record company one he could have ruined his career with that record company and other companies and it would have portrayed him in a very poor light probably with his band members and his fans so I think there's reasons that reasonable especially way back then now I think victims are more coming out because their people are believing them giving them the counseling and not judging them um but we still have sometimes we have rape cases where it's regret and it's not rape so you got a dichotomy that's going back and forth all the time is it really rape or is you just mad because the guy's not calling you anymore and he feels like he took advantage of you or is it really really rape um and then when you get a kid that was really raped and doesn't disclose it well was it really rape you never disclosed it so hopefully and most juries really figure it out um no one acts the same no one responds the same but maybe this he came out after what happened and this letter he came out I don't know when that documentary was uh documentary was released very recently I think it was this this past year um I am not T-Pain uh Anne Bremner uh would their sentences be overturned if their appeals got approved or would they have to have a new trial or do we not know well we don't know but I think most likely a new trial I I can't imagine that their sentences their convictions and sentences would be completely vacated I mean there's a lot of relief they could be granted but I think we definitely put the Behavior's petition too from our care go somewhere really if you requested but I think every trial with that evidence coming in would be the remedy most likely um Roxanne a says Ann Burgess is great nothing but respect for her however she was hired by the defense and she did what the defense experts do um and is this a valid point um from Roxanne I mean Ann Burgess is a world-renowned um you know sort of profiler and abuse expert but is it a valid point because she is working for one side yeah Roxanne makes a great point and a lot of times in trials is that these experts cancel each other out I mean that's just that's a danger on the other hand you know these experts she's got great expertise and her testimony is helpful to the jury the jury gets the jury instructions saying how they can weigh expert credibility and there's a lot of factors their experience um any bias they may have you know what the what they're armed with in terms of information you know Etc so the jurors are going with experts every day look at the um the George Floyd trial how many experts testified in that case there were a lot pulmonologists there were Pathologists there were respiratory experts Beyond pulmonologists as I recall tons of experts on both sides but yet the jury breached a verdict um very strongly and quickly in spite of the conflicting the expert testimony uh so Tim that's a good point A lot of times um do you find that jurors are leaning uh into their emotion more so than the expert testimony Tim they have a gut instinct I think they do um I know when I hire my expert I hire one that the state hires all the time who is Credible because it'd be hard for them to come back and say he's some some quack and you really don't want to hire some expert if the expert calls you and says hey what what's your defense no no it doesn't work that way you do your evaluation you tell me what you come up with and then we'll determine but whenever they say hey what tell me what your theory is before they even review anything you got a Hired Gun there you want to be careful because they'll go fold like a cheap suit um and I never do that I I tell them you you do it you look at it give me your best experience what's your view and if it's consistent with what our defense is going to be we'll use them if it's not thank you so much um Good Luck uh unless you think we are not a global show mecla chakrabardi hello from Mumbai India never fail to watch your show this is my first time live this is why the YouTube is amazing uh can broadcast around the world uh so there are some quotes here so Lyle and Eric Menendez were both interviewed about this uh testimony from Roy russello not really testimony but what he had to say uh in this movie and uh the quote goes I always hoped and believed that one day the truth about my dad would come out Eric Menendez says um but I never wish for it to come out like this the result of trauma that another child had suffered and then Lyle goes on and says we'd heard rumors that something might have happened with menudo Through The Years you know that that would have made a difference at trial because the entire trial centered on the Public's belief belief about these events um and you know these are smart guys one went to Princeton on a tennis scholarship I forget where the other one went but um he says that you know the court of public opinion it was all everything was centered on whether these abuse allegations were true or not um again how much Credence does in your opinion does a guy like Roy orsello you know nearly 30 years later coming out um how much Credence does he lend to the legal argument here well I think one of the biggest things we see with with victims male and female and otherwise and I used to be a sex assault prosecutor and have a lot of civil um sexual assault and child abuse sexual assault cases the biggest thing we see is Shane so you see it's not surprising like Tim says or said that you can have a delay in reporting or or some that never reports so I think that's explainable I think jurors they get that I think everybody gets that and child abuse damages their lifelong and people are very reluctant to come forward because of shame I don't know why the shame is there I mean I'd like to have an expert really explain that to me but I understand to me everyone I've seen almost every one of my clients and victims I have and as a prosecutor in essay cases had some measure of Shame yeah and again Ann Burgess on the show last night basically said um in many instances especially among males they some they just never come forward because they're too shamed by it and Tim was talking about his case uh back to you and uh legally this is an interesting question is it legally acceptable or allowed for a judge to not allow abuse evidence in their trial is there any argument to be made some was let in it was just a much lesser degree but um is there any kind of legal argument to be made about what was allowed or not allowed or is it just too far gone at this point well I think the argument's being made now under that change in the law that I talked about that says if you were disallowed an imperfect self-defense which is basically it's not true self-defense because if there was not immediate threat to the Menace Brothers I mean it's more imperfect based on the history of sexual or other abuse so I I think it's a it's a valid defense and I have to understand that back then it was pretty novel to have an imperfect self-defense I mean this has evolved over a long period of time they called it the abuse excuse um it was ridiculed in the media and in legal circles today we accepted that it wasn't that long ago that it was not accepted the self-defense was purely what it states or appears to mean which is you have an imminent threat to yourself and so therefore you're entitled legally to defend yourself imperfect self-defense is different hmm look at this uh good afternoon from Jersey of course my home state but uh bugs that is uh that's a chief technical officer right there I wonder what she's doing here she should be handling all the Technologies get out of here bugs and go work on the uh on the show um Catherine asked a question Tim and we'll start taking some viewer questions here why isn't this simply self-defense when you're terrified after years of abuse and feel like there's no way out what guy at the time of the trial want to talk freely about it back then um so what about a self-defense you know that that's kind of what um the defense argued but I don't think they were able to argue it as vigorously as they wanted to well they would have had a better case if uh his body was found in Eric's bedroom uh he had no clothes on when he was shotgunned there wasn't an imminent threat um could have been I mean if you're if you feel you're going to be raped you have a right to defend yourself but that isn't what happened I mean what happened was parents were watching The Ten Commandments but Charlton Heston when they were shotgunned in the living room um so it's not a self-defense case in that manner but it wasn't I mean their mindset when they did it clearly you see these cases where people are stabbed like 50 60 times it clearly was personal they certainly wanted to make sure that they were dead because they it was such a horrible crime scene so that mindset the defense should have argued that they were reliving the sexual assault and they feared every time they fired the gun they felt what was happening to them for years and I think they could have got something more less than a first degree murder in less than a life without parole no one is arguing self-defense and that would be Mark is not going to argue that on the abias his position I believe is they would that evidence would have proven they were convicted of a lesser Advantage they've served more time than they could have possibly gotten if they got convicted and Justice is equity would be not new trial but releasing give them time serve that's what I think his argument will be uh Michelle cavernos uh love from Cape Town South Africa a friend of the show she's she's always uh either tuning in or watching on the replay so thanks to Mish and look at this she's already changed her name STS Chief everything uh as she is reaching out to people here uh she told me she was working out I guess her workout is over already baby doll a friend of the show hey y'all SGS fam um so Ann to you I had a guy named Hector Pharrell on the show not long ago he is a former corrections officer and uh he was a lieutenant in the department of corrections and he oversaw the yard where Lyle and Eric are now reunited in a prison outside San Diego at the Richard J Donovan Correctional Facility he came out publicly and said that uh the brothers have a quote-unquote sense of entitlement and refer to them as narcissists he basically said that anytime a camera would come into the yard because there's some other high profile uh prisoners there like Suge Knight is there that they would try to get FaceTime um try to get their story out uh does this hurt them uh maybe not in the in the court of law but in the court of public opinion that you've got this guy who claims he says he didn't know him well but he and he purposely kind of ignored them because he didn't want them to have the feeling that they were special but um just the fact that a guy like this goes public doesn't hurt the case I mean publicly maybe but you see that with Betty Broderick or Mary kale turnout you know different high-profile defendants were there in prison you know everybody oh I know them they're totally entitled they're totally guilty I mean I kind of take that with the grain of salt we had one with America Letourneau and the tabloids that said Mary came to turn on beauty secrets from prison you know I mean it's just that kind of thing where you think well somebody wants to talk someone wrote a book about her that men were in prison it was called Mass with Mary because they went to Catholic mass together but I I was just like a general cinch I mean I don't know it's I I don't find it to be credible but in this day and age you know everybody's a journalist nobody's a journalist someone's coming out and saying they know what's going on and they know these people and they're entitled arrogant and guilty uh and back to you Anne from Mary Patterson do the lawyers think at this point having a new trial or their sentence is commuted can be for political reasons is there political pressure to free these guys oh um I the last time I checked Gavin Newsom turned down Leslie Van Halen one of the Manson girls even though the parole board recommended her release after how many years since what 1969 70 or 71 whenever she was convicted she got the death sentence I think and then they commuted that because it was thrown out in California um political I don't know and this is a very controversial case I find them to be sympathetic I think a lot of people do given them the Injustice that happened with the second judge we just can't stand for that it doesn't matter who it is you know the bottom line is is you've got to have a fair trial for each and every person that's tried this country you know whether they're privileged you know whether they're guilty whether they're innocent I think that the line from the killer Mockingbird imposing argument from Atticus Finch was we're not created equal you know some are smarter than other people some are richer some are poorer some ladies big better cakes he said I don't know jury but the bottom line is we're all free to April in the courtroom including the Menendez brothers can you imagine telling a jury that women bake better cakes today you'd uh you'd be canceled immediately Tim Jansen um look at this comment from Kimberly C been seeing Ann Bremner on TV for a long time always been a fan of Foreigner work best guess STS Nation uh Mia says here um it's been 30 years years since the trial and Ann this is Ann Burgess is still saying the same thing it's not what defense experts do she really does believe the brothers um Tim kind of moving over to some of the uh testimony from Ann Burgess I went back and watched a lot of it by the way she is I want to give her age but I will she's like 86 years old now and she looked younger back then and she's still going incredibly strong she's she's amazing I wish I had half her energy but um she said uh it is very common uh this was her testimony for abused children to feel precisely the way Eric Menendez said he felt just before killing his parents without any adult to trust with no place to go and seemingly out of uh options a combination that produces intense fear and then goes on to say on the night of the killings the parents and the sons meaning lion Eric got into an argument in the Mansion foyer and the parents closed the door to the TV room Eric Menendez viewed that action as a sign of imminent danger and Burgess testified an outsider might not view the closing of the door that way she said but Eric Menendez was hyper Vigilant after years of abuse his brain biologically altered to be attuned to cues that Outsiders would ignore um so she really pinpoints it to this time uh when this door shuts and he literally feels like this is the end like he might be attacked um it's it's pretty emotional it's it's pretty heavy uh do you think again if the parameters were different and the judge allowed more of this testimony in this would have carried a lot more weight back then I think it would have and I think his fear would have been reasonable considering the evidence that would have been admitted and how it occurred over years and the fact that I think Lyle or someone mentioned they were going to go public um that the father he would be in danger the father would lose everything and it is quite clear that um he felt that way um I don't know I I think the facts I don't know where they got the shotgun if it was dad's shotgun I know there was evidence I saw a little bit of the testimony that they had two shotguns in the Dad's closet but I don't know if those are the same ones that were used um but I'm curious where he got the shotgun if he got it from his dad's closet after he heard the and he was going to take an active uh preemption to prevent himself from being murdered but do I think it was a reasonable fear based on all the evidence we have now yeah someone's abusing you sexually for years and everything to lose and it's gone on and on and on and your brother confronts him and then you hear the door shut um there is a reasonable fear that uh danger lies ahead but was it reasonable to go out there while they're laying on there in the that's why it's not self-defense okay it's not self-defense he wasn't in imminent danger if the father walked into the room with no clothes on in his bedroom he probably could have claimed self-defense but that's not what happened and the killing the mother that was clearly not self-defense I don't think they were in fear of the mother harming them uh so I don't think it's self-defense I wouldn't have I don't think there was any chance at all self-defense against a mother well Tim and Burgess brought that up last night that uh the mother was complicit in that yeah the fact that she knew it she ignored it she turned a blind eye she's also an alcoholic and a drug addict um and you know had her own issues going on but again is that enough is that enough for a courtroom to say well she just she was complicit because she basically denied it was happening the jury and the and the women on the jury will not think highly of kitty because as a mother your number one role in life is to protect your child and even though we've changed or everything today is different that motherly protection still goes with with mothers and the fact that she heard and turned the volume up or her children were being molested by the father that's really troubling very problematic she didn't deserve to be murdered but um she certainly was complicit uh today she would be arrested she would be charged um department of family Children's Services if you know your children are being harmed and you don't take steps to do anything you can be charged with a crime um and today you have to report it so she should have had to report it she did nothing and she her mental and alcoholism may be in a problem she may have been abused physically um but she still could have been charged um Wendy Murphy talked about how Jose Menendez also had a porn addiction he had unlimited finances he was allegedly getting young prostitutes it was a it was a mess of a situation um once again unless you think we are not Global Montessori mindset hello from Beijing China for once catching alive usually in the replay crew uh happy to have you here live and then we go straight from Beijing to Germany look at this Tim and Anne bringing out uh the global crew here um and to you this part gets difficult uh but I think it's important so Ann Burgess who spent over 50 hours it's important important to point out uh speaking to Eric Menendez said that uh sexually abused children uh always have a label or in almost every case a label for the ACT in its case Eric referred to sex with his brother with his father as a knees he would call it it's time to go to do knees uh because of the posture he had to assume um so they had their own terminology and um again Burgess offered this testimony this is graphic everyone uh Eric testified that he used to put cinnamon in his father's coffee and oatmeal hoping to make oral sex more palatable in her interviews with him conducted the last several years while he was in jail Eric Menendez had his own quote-unquote special way of describing the abuse talking about knees so Ann Burgess makes the point that there is no way he'd be making this up it's one thing to accuse your father but to have these sorts of sorted details about the lengths he had to go through to survive this abuse it's impossible um these details basically are a truth serum of sorts to show that he was in fact being honest about all this abuse but I don't know that uh the jurors took Anne's word because of what the judge admonished him to you know to do which is not take it as gospel what say you or right and you take an excellent expert like this with very important things to say for the defense but then you don't give the defense a chance to back up what she has to say with real facts I mean that's a lot of what happened in the second trial so um it's one of those kinds of things you look back now when we're cognizant about mental health about sexual abuse about understanding victims we didn't have that understanding back then I mean it's been a long time about that this case was trying and we've come a long way and I think that if there's retry today it'd be potentially a different result but you know the fact is Katie like Tim said you know Katie was killed and that's a hard sell for imperfect self-defense it's not a self-defense case there's no imminent threat but it's basically something where it's imperfect when you say you killed because you were basically provoked to do so by years of sexual or other abuse part of it was a bed and women's syndrome that's how it first started you know in DV cases where you know what about women it could be any intimate partner but back then there's a better women in the defense basically saying he beat me up so many times I just had to kill him The Burning Bed of Farrah Fawcett I think was the kind of seminal movie about it to just show that that can happen and it actually is legally justifiable on the side potentially um some more testimonies so there was a guy named uh Tim there's a guy named John Conte who we had on too he's a very well-known uh social worker doctor in the field of domestic violence he testified on behalf of Lyle and um the the state brought up some Pro some inconsistencies and and testimony and I don't remember the exact inconsistencies that that came up however John Conte says uh he rejects these inconsistencies as being unimportant because there was so much confusion uh and and great anxiety as he puts it uh in their lives the state came out and said if they were so confused why did they immediately hide their shell casings um it's a good argument by the state uh how would you counter that being that you're a uh an amazing defense attorney what would you say to that would you go with your uh expert witness who says look they're confused some things they they could process they knew to get rid of the shell casings but other things they couldn't necessarily figure out Well you certainly couldn't go to an insanity defense um they knew what they were doing they were covering up the crime scene um they laughed um they pretended to come back they put on this act Eric was crying when the police showed up they said they were going to go to a movie he forgot his ID so that is all uh premeditated that I was all planned that shows they're trying to cover a crime that doesn't show that they were so mentally out of it so stricken in fear of life they probably would have been better if they would have just called 9-1-1 and said I thought my dad was going to shotgun and or he was going to rape me again I couldn't take it anymore he probably would have done better and instead there and stayed there and said we were sexually abused and we were threatened that they were going to murder us because we were going to go through the law enforcement that would have been a better fact for them and they probably would have got a a resolution by the state attorney that they could have lived with and they'd be out but they they didn't they they came up with this facade they went out and spent money like drunken Soldier Sailors and it and then they had no no one gave them any sympathy they all came across back then TV buying Rolex watches buying Porsches going on trips that they that they did it for the money and they played right into that theme that the state had and when they lost their defense of abuse they were done and and Tim brings up a good point so uh there's a famous photo then uh courtside at a Lakers playoffs game uh not long after the the murders took place um and the state argued it was about you know money and Burgess said last night that those Rolexes that Tim just mentioned that they they gave those away uh and John Conte um who is this expert witness a real a real expert in the field of domestic violence uh by the way I I think he's up in your neck of the woods and why yes yeah yeah um said that uh Lyle Menendez was never dishonest with me and said that you know they were just in a kind of an altered state of mind but how much does it still hurt them that there's this photo of them at the Lakers game and the the notion that they were driving in sports cars and spending this money in Beverly Hills how much does that hurt them cute it's huge I mean it was the state's case you know like the tunnel you don't need a motive we always say that but they certainly had a motive to argue which was financial gain and keeping in mind that Jose was a pretty strict parent they had kind of a history of some burglaries and some mistakes in their own neighborhood he was very ashamed of that and he went and paid off as I've read in the account so when I paid off some of those alleged victims I mean he ruled that house as an iron fists aside from the mother back there was sexual abuse so the minute that he's gone I mean they just went wild like Tim said like drunken Sailors they were spending on everything it was just a wild and very visible and visual spending stream based on a crime screen so as a prosecutor that's golden to argue with a jury I mean Financial motive inheritance I mean it's perfect in an imperfect defense self-defense case and Dan right back to you from Andy's school here um after all these years is unfair to others who've committed murder for any abuse who don't have the spotlight on their case if they're still in forgotten about these men have been humanized does it set a bad precedent or is it unfair and unjust I'm sure there's other people sitting in prison under similar circumstances what do you say I mean I think we have the best system in the world but it's not perfect I mean entitled to a fair trial but not a perfect trial I think Supreme Court has said sure everyone should be able to Avail themselves what the Menendez brothers are doing with a high profile lawyer can they do that a lot of times no they don't have the financial resources but the fact is we're paying attention to these kinds of defenses now and recognizing they cannot be disallowed and hopefully that spills over to other cases where the defense and a habeas would be well deserved and relief would be deserved in a new trial or dismissal uh Tim Jansen and we'll start to wrap up soon uh Kimberly says uh does anyone think there's a chance for an Alfred plea uh Tim if you can explain what an Alfred plea is and if there is a chance here well Norman Alfred please you admit what you did but then you claim you really didn't commit the crime but you're doing this uh reserving your innocence while you're admitting your guilt I I don't think that's the case I think what they would do is say they would they would plead to a manslaughter charge and credit time served and they would admit to the manslaughter they they're not going to get self-defense um I'm I don't think if this gets any traction this habeas I think it's going to be worked out between the state attorney and the and the defense Mark they're going to work something out uh there's no reason now 32 years later to say we want to retry this case you know I don't know if they could even find the witnesses half the witnesses may be dead um the evidence may not be uh protected after all the appeals a lot of times these police departments they get rid of evidence they destroy it because they don't have the room for it so yeah I I think it's going to be a matter of either they're going to get a credit time served to manslaughter or a commutation from the governor um but you know back then 20 years ago 30 years ago no Governor would have commuted this sentence um Gavin Newsom is quasi of presidential candidate uh he's out there talking it but he's not really announced he turned down the Manson murderous which was a high profile case back then um we had Squeaky from in prison here in Tallahassee for a long time so I don't know if Newsom would do it he might be in a public outcry if it proves that these people didn't get a fair trial then he might do it and what he what is he doing he's commuting the sentence to 32 years not a lot of bad political politics there good point very good point and he may very well run on your everyday sheep says there were rifles in the house but they bought the shotguns two days before tenant brought that up that's a bad fact that's a really bad fact if they bought shotguns two days before that's premeditated yeah yeah um so and to you it's interesting how lawyers look at it right away Tim is uh rethinking things um to Ann Bremner from Mia have you worked any cases I think you said you had where battered women woman syndrome was used as a defense for a murder charge and what were the circumstances and the outcome of those cases well it's actually one that my ex-husband tried and it I think it was the first battered women's defense case in Washington state and it was very novel at the time um he's somebody that actually represented Ted Bundy back in the day up here in Washington state so he took on this kind of Novel defense and was successful in bringing it forward so I know it by osmosis but very interesting because back then when he had that case it was just something people just didn't accept I mean and I can't even remember the outcome of the trial I just remember how novel that defense was which is basically my husband beat me up for so long you know that I had to kill him I just knew he was gonna really kill me and you know with domestic violence cases this the pattern of violence we know escalates often to death so that was a reasonable fear on the part of the alleged victim slash defendant in a murder case uh Kimberly Collins says I believe if you kill your abuser there should not be prison you have no idea what victims is of sexual abuse go through it's so debilitating emotion physically it is not uh self-defense so uh the court of public opinion weighing in uh the mother sexually abused Kitty sexually abused Lyle which has been discussed why don't people know this um I don't know if that played a role Kitty Menendez herself talked about how she was sexually uh molested so this was uh not a healthy family it went back generationally uh maybe that is why she turned a blind eye not condoning it but uh she herself was a victim uh that came out um her I I think her sister or sister-in-law I want to say sister has come out and said that the brother should still be um in prison but other members of the family say they should be released uh one other big thing and then we'll begin to wrap uh Tim Jansen at the trial there was a gentleman named Dr Leon Jerome Ozil he was a therapist that Eric confessed to He was ordered to go see Dr Ozil but Dr Ozil was a shady character he made uh Eric signed something that he could go back and tell his parents everything he also tried to basically get him to confess on tape long story short this guy ended up losing his license and does uh some sort of sex seminars in Oregon State now but uh what about this X Factor Tim because he played a big role I mean he was the quote-unquote expert but he turns out to be uh basically a you know a charlatan of sorts so how important is that factor well I don't know how the evidence was admitted uh I don't know what they signed if they were adults when they signed this waiver he had this patient I guess he was having an affair with she was sitting outside the room and she overheard the conversation and then he abused her she went to the police and said oh by the way I've got these tapes of this confession I I didn't get delve into it I'd love to know how that was admissible under and it wasn't protected by doctor patient uh it wasn't a future crime it was a past crime um but he should have lost his license for many reasons and I can tell you when you have a client you want him to go to a psychiatrist or to talk about it because when you have these horrible offenses they're looking at a lot of prison time they can't talk to their parents they don't want to talk to their parents you don't really want to talk to them until you have a defense because they say something it limits your ability to call them on the stand so the only person they really can talk to may be a priest or their psychiatrists but then you're scared to death who the psychiatrist is that they'll end up coming in and testifying against them it's a problem that I have in my practice um because you don't want the person not to be able to talk to anybody while the trial is pending because it's so emotional so stressful they need to get that be able to talk to somebody but in this case it looks like it's the only reason why this crime was solved if they didn't talk and this confession didn't come out I don't think they would have ever had enough evidence to prosecute them and you have a doctor who commits malpractice multiple ways of having sex with his patient releasing confidential information it's just horrendous and it's terrible for the system um and it really doesn't give lawyers who have to make those decisions uh a good a good base is to feel comfortable that you're advising your client to do that comfortably this is an interesting comment by the way will this live stream be able to uh to be watched after uh yes it will they always are Rachel Wyatt my parents use money and gifts to make up for their emotional and physical abuse so I have no uh issue with the brother spending after the murders buying things can be therapeutic a therapeutic coping mechanism so that sounds like a person uh who has been through it um Anne Bremner uh back to you and back to Mark aragos kind of coming full circle um kind of pulling back the legal curtain you know he filed this writ of habeas corpus what is the process now um again he said it would be about 45 days is there anything that he can kind of actively work on or does he just have to sit still right now and wait for the you know to hear from the court well I think it's important for him to keep it in the public eye I mean that's what I'd be doing right now if I was more gear goes to speak because you never know who else was gonna come forward and have information that could potentially be helpful to the defendants this is a very high profile case but the interest is waned waxed and weighing but it's back now why not seize that opportunity to try and see if there's anybody else who can come forward to support the rep Alex here says uh how do they sleep at night I don't know if it's because of the abuse or because of what they did but uh either way they probably don't sleep too well and one of the things that uh annberg has talked about was these recurring nightmares that Eric had about this big green monster that would get bigger and bigger and bigger which was his father as he would shrink and shrink and Shrink um Anna Lisette here Tim to you a bigger question here is does life without parole even serve a useful purpose in this case as was said maybe the defense would go for a lesser uh offense with time served do you agree with that Tim I do I think the horrendous nature of the offense who the people were high profile people a wife and a husband being shotgunned and then these people given the state a compelling argument that they had a motive didn't give the state of any reason to work out any kind of resolution to them I don't know if the lawyers you know not this case but other cases I've seen lawyers in order to build up their own reputation and get on TV turn down plea offers that were in the best interest of the client I'm not saying that happen in this case I'm not saying that but I'm saying I've seen it in a couple cases in Tallahassee and it did not serve the client's best interests they would have been dealt better working on a plea deal one has now life without parole and you know the case I'm talking about Markel case she was offered immunity and went to trial and had no real shot at winning at trial and she had immunity twice offered to her and she didn't take him with the trial and lost she got a life sentence that is disturbing as a lawyer I think I think every lawyer that does this will recognize that haunt you that if you because your inability to convince your client what was in their best interest or if you did something not in their best or interest for your own and they suffered a life sentence you will that will haunt you as a lawyer for the rest of your career yeah that was a a critically bad mistake but uh Tim teed us up tomorrow night uh 7 P.M eastern time Thursday 7 P.M Eastern Tim Jansen will be back with Carl Steinbeck and John Singer 100 plus reasons now like 150 reasons why Wendy Adelson should be indicted in the murder of her ex-husband Dan Markell we'll be discussing that tomorrow 7 P.M eastern time uh Ann Bremner she is a trial attorney one of the nation's most recognized legal analysts she's been in practice over 35 years with a lot of high profile cases she was also the prosecuting attorney for King County the Kings County prosecutor's office in Seattle uh you've seen her everywhere CNN Fox MSNBC HLN and most importantly STS a couple quick comments here Claudette Foster says these young men were in their early 20s when this crime was committed they did it for the parents money and they should serve their time followed by Bonnie Lee Lopez who's been vocal they had the best defense keep them right where they are guilty so you can see the court of public opinion remains split uh Ann Bremner uh if you had a guess legally how does this play out do they uh get a vacated sentence a new trial do they ultimately get out of prison well I don't think you're going to get it it's time to get out of jail free card certainly in this case I mean your viewers and um here have excellent points that that to this day people feel that they're that they're guilty and it's a terrible crime so I think at best they get a new trial or resentencing but short of that or long of that nothing else or it's simply denied it's just simply denying they've been in prison for a long time and a lot of people say throw away the keys well put uh Tim Jansen for those of you who don't know you're living under a rock if you're watching this show because he's on a lot he is the famed Tallahassee defense attorney who works for the office that bears his name Jansen and Davis he's handled all kinds of complex civil administrative and criminal litigation he also spent five years as a federal prosecutor no one knows the law quite like Tim Jansen especially when he gets in uh in his defense mode and you see him going uh Tim same question to you uh how does this wind up legally and do these boys ever see the light of day and I want to say it was a pleasure being on with you you've had a lot of really important cases throughout your career high profile cases you've done it well um you're a good spokesman a good legal analyst and it's a pleasure working with you and being on the show with you it's such a pleasure to be on with you I'm a great admirer and thank you I think the best they're gonna get I think is going to get a commuted sentence um they're not going to be they're not going to have them walking out of the jail with them saying and having a parade I think it's going to be I think right now that the judge doesn't know what to do he's he's hoping that no one does anything or maybe they're pressuring the state attorney there to do something or maybe Mark is contacting the state attorney seeing if they will join in on their motion and see if they can work out a resolution hopefully Mark is maybe contacting the governor's office with all this and hoping that whoever does the Pardons and commutations on behalf of the governor of California will say listen can will he commute the sentence it'll be good for him it'll show that he's caring and he he recognizes that a fair trial was not given and as heinous as these crimes were um they didn't get a fair trial and everybody deserves a fair trial you know no one's Above the Law no one's below the law but I I don't think there's going to be a new trial that will never happen um and if he gets a commutation then a lot of people 50 of the people like everything else are going to be upset that they got out 50 will be happy that Justice was at least fixed so can't make everybody happy all the time no one knows that better than the guy that hosts a YouTube shows I got plenty of good good email and plenty of bad email uh Al alpaca Renee great show Joel always brilliant guest who doesn't love an alpaca great show Joel and then where did this one go I wanted to bring this one up only commenting as I cannot believe I caught alive thank God you did Tenacious P from Manchester UK we truly are a global show big huge thanks to both Ann Bremner and Tim Jansen Tim I'll see you tomorrow night Tim by the way I heard you got a STS hat and some swag I was gonna wear I was gonna wear it tomorrow night I didn't want to put it on tonight but today I'm going to wear it tomorrow night you can't mess up the the hair when you've got hair no people wouldn't want to see my hair well we'll see you tomorrow night I am working believe it or not to do a second show today on this missing submersible um it's tough to get people to talk on this believe it or not because all the real experts are doing TV 24 hours a day they don't realize STS is a bigger better show but uh hope to see you guys back later today follow me at podcast STS and I will let you know uh what time that show happens I think we will make it happen around 7 or 8 P.M eastern time tonight on the missing submersible and then tomorrow Tim Jansen is back on the Denmark Hill murder case until then love you America love you Tallahassee love you Seattle and everywhere in between