Congressman Roma thank you Mr chairman uh Mr secretary thank you again uh for a very very uh helpful and thought-provoking uh statement that you gave us I want to probe and push a little bit harder on two things that you've already talked about a little bit one is the decision to uh fire the missiles into Sudan at the alifa plant you've outlined in very specific detail three or four reasons why you decided to do that and why you might have regretted doing that at a later point no I I I I never regretted doing that why why why there were three or four reasons you are glad you did it uh and why those things could have come back to haunt you if if okay all right okay you can clarify my question and your answer with respect to Sudan every single person in the Clinton Administration has told us that it was a very difficult decision that they didn't have regrets about it as you have not had any regrets about it and that they were roundly criticized for it not only because there was some theory on Capitol Hill about Wag the Dog which you have clarified I think in your remarks but I want to push you harder on the other part of this a couple of the people including Sandy Berger in the private sessions with us said they remembered the editorials across the country saying they didn't get Bin Laden they created according to e an economist article uh The Economist accused them of maybe creating a hundred Usama bin ladin because they did not kill them with the cruise missile strikes how does that not imp impact to some degree your decision subsequently when you're having these kinds of decisions come forward uh to to make the the tough call as you did in this particular instance uh it had no impact uh I looked at uh the the question um I was satisfied you I regret that one life was lost during that particular attack um we we were very precise we timed it as a matter of fact so there would very few of any people uh at the the plan it was at night time it was timed uh simultaneously with the attack virtually uh in in Afghanistan so that we didn't lose the the surprise element uh and we tried to minimize any collateral damage to the extent that we could but we were prepared to take that down the Wag the Dog um issue I I think was unfortunate it was untrue but that was something the reality what was taking place on Capitol Hill as far as the criticism was concerned it had no deterrent whatsoever in terms of our commitment to look for hunt for and to capture or Kill U Benin Laden I do want to U I want to urge one cautionary note and that is that even though uh it's important to capture or kill Benin Laden uh I think that we should understand that doesn't end it um any more than capturing Saddam Hussein has stopped some of the terrorist actions I think that we have seen Al-Qaeda is not doesn't have a central headquarters uh it doesn't fly a flag uh it has spread through many countries um and I know it may argue that because there were not prior action taken this even uh more um uh uh disseminated now U but the fact is that uh we would take action against Ben Laden or his associates wherever we thought we could do so successfully what we didn't want to do was to take action that satisfied The Passion of the moment that gave us a sense well we're doing something but in fact had the effect of Simply generating opposition to what we were doing undercutting the sharing of intelligence cooperation making our goal of actually capturing or killing him more difficult so that was the only hesitation we had does this action that is being proposed have a probability of success is it likely to achieve our goal or is it more likely to undercut our efforts those were the only consideration that we had I'm very happy to hear that let me ask you the question to look forward secretary Rumsfeld who will be with us momentarily wrote a memo that uh I think outlined the problem in the future absolutely to the point and he said as you have just indicated that the military is not the only weapon that it's one of many arrows in the quiver one of many tools in the toolbox to use I'd like to push you a little bit harder on a country that is absolutely critical to the United States and our future and that's Indonesia What specifically as these training camps produce this uh Wrath of hatred and jihadis what can we do even if we're out there with the military killing people and trying to eliminate the terrorists and the geodist what can we do is they're cranking out these human conveyor belts of terrorists and education in a place like Indonesia to uh replace the madrasas with a practical education or what can Indonesia do what can we do on imet what can we do reaching out to the moderates in the government there how can we begin uh to put new types of uh military and State Department department and Intel efforts uh uh to reach out to uh these types of critically important countries in the future thank you Aron RoR you had Secretary of State here earlier secretary Powell and I think he laid out some of the quote diplomatic initiatives that have to be undertaken Summit involves diplomacy it involves the use of economic uh both incentives and disincentives it involves sanctions it involves a variety of things but most of all it requires engagement on the part of the United States in a very aggressive diplomatic fashion U Shake zman who is the Crown Prince of Bahrain if you any of you have not had occasion to meet with him I'd recommend that you talk to this young man he's one of the most Progressive young leaders that I have met um certainly my travels but especially in the Gulf region along with King Abdullah of Jordan but Shake zman made an observation a few months ago which I uh I endorse uh basically Al pointing to the problem that the United States has in dealing with this issue that much of the Arab world looks through two lenses one lens focus on how we conduct ourselves in Iraq now that we're there how we are successfully resolve or achieve success uh in Iraq and treat uh the Iraqi people in that process and the other happens to do with the Middle East conflict that many Muslims throughout the world also look through the lens of the Israeli Palestinian conflict and so I think we have to become much more engaged there as well and that's why I mentioned I don't think it should wait until November elections are over I think that we have to energize that process now and I have my own thoughts about what needs to be done and have written about that uh in addition to that we have to engage Indonesia um diplomatically militarily the imit program is one of the most important programs that we have uh the sharing of educational materials excises planning with other militaries because of the superiority I believe of the men and women who serve us because of their their excellence and education discipline uh uh leadership followship all the things that we that make us the greatest Force military force in the face of the Earth we should be trying to share that Talent technology techniques with other countries and yes they may be accused of not living up to our standards of Human Rights all the more reason why we should engage them all the more reason why we have to persuade them that this is the way a military has to operate not with clubs and batons not with the the law of rule but the rule of law that also has to take place so im's important I think we also have to go uh to other countries who support the madrasas and say that you are feeding the Flames of future destruction here uh that in requires education it requires giving countries ALS also a hope now I'll come back to Palestine just the Palestinians for a moment um unless you see people who have an opportunity for either sovereignty uh dignity uh and opportunity you're likely to see continue uh festering of violence in the region so you have to give people a sense of hope economic hope uh individual liberty uh in terms of their opportunities all of that is involved so that requires us to be engaged in a very aggressive way diplomatically the military by the way plays a role a great role in diplomacy we have our state department and they do an outstanding job with very limited resources but the military also plays a very big role when our men and women in uniform go to a country and people are able to judge them and see how good they are how disciplined how well-led how technically uh capable Etc how good they are as human beings they make a judgment about us and they say we want to be like you we want to we want to have the same kind of capability want to develop a CO relationship with you we need to do more of that and so every time there's an issue that comes up on the hill and say well Abus of Human Rights cut off imit we should be holding on to imit uh I could carry on at length about this particular requirement and I know that there are people on the hill who would object to that but I think we have a better chance of influencing people in their judgments about us and helping to persuade them that the way of the future is to to uh have a military like that of the United States and and our allies uh to subordinate that military to civilian rule to educate the military to help persuade them that they have they are in this war against Terror with us all of that comes about with diplomacy uh and a very strong military capability uh and diplom diplomatic effort thank you very much I hope this committee uh this commission will take into consideration those very provocative and thoughtful recommendations and our recommendations at the end of the day thank you secretary Cohen thank you very very much not only for your testimony today but I know you have given very generously of your time to this commission and private sessions and with the staff and uh for that I thank you very much I hope if we have additional questions and I know we're going to want to talk to you a bit more as we get into our recommendations