[Music] this is mish mash a weekly conversation where we try to unjumble an important and sometimes under the radar Statewide story that affects you I'm Shaya Roth and I'm Zach Goro Michigan public schools have gotten back their third grade reading scores and the results are not great the reading scores are at a 10year low the Michigan student test of educational progress or mstep results were released this week the results showed that only 39.6% of third graders across Michigan passed the state's English language arts test this is especially disheartening considering that there have been efforts to try to raise these pivotal test scores we spoke with Peter spatap for who's with the Michigan Alliance for student opportunity and this was his reaction to the results I think like every Observer around Lancing and across the state we were disappointed in the numbers but also not entirely surprised to see the lingering impacts of the covid-19 pandemic the state superintendent talks a lot about the impact of virtual instruction um when we were not able to beat in classrooms having an impact on those early Learners when we're trying to get at them um soon and and and quickly to to grasp those early reading skills um virtual instruction is not like entirely to blame here there are are great ways to do virtual instruction but as we looked at who's being tested um in this window it's not surprising to see that the students that sort of started out their careers during the p pandemic um are the ones we're seeing lower test scores the third graders who took those tests last year were mostly in preschool and just starting their school careers when their year was cut short by the covid-19 pandemic and then many of them had their kindergarten years upended with many school districts still conducting remote learning for much of that school year the state has been pouring hundreds of millions into funding for districts to hire reading interventionalists for the kids struggling the most but it's unclear to what extent school districts have successfully filled those positions and how many students they can actually help Michigan had a law that in the early 2020s forced some third graders to repeat the grade because they could not read a grade level about 5% scored low enough to be eligible to be held back but under the exemptions in the law just half of 1% of all students actually were required to repeat third grade Democrats in 2023 repealed the language allowing third graders to be held back and instead allow more additional interventions for struggling readers Republicans say that was a mistake at the state level the question is how will Governor Gretchen Whitmer and majority Democrats in the legislature handle this problem they already have searched funding into it it's not clear that more money even if they can find it will provide an answer schools while state funded are locally run and between traditional public school districts plus charter schools there are more than 800 individually run local school operations trying to figure out how to get students back on track something that won't be easy given the pandemic interruptions still affecting students there's been such an emphasis in Michigan schools for the past decade on science Technology and Engineering and math also known as stem one wonders if it isn't time for a pivot to rebalance the scales toward reading and writing Michigan State University put out a report in July that found more than 2third of kindergarten through fifth grade teachers are using curriculum resources for reading and writing instruction that are unrated or rated subpar we're going to take a short break but stick around because when we come back we're talking with Peter spatap for executive director of the Michigan Alliance for student opportunity welcome back to mishmash I'm Shaya Roth and I'm Zach porow we're here now with Peter spatap for one of the capital's foremost education policy experts he's worked for groups through the years representing principles school board members and superintendents he's now executive director of the Michigan Alliance for student opportunity a coalition of urban school districts he's also a member of the laning city council Peter welcome to Mish bash thank you Zach thank you Shannon it's good to be here so Peter walk us through your reaction to the reading test scores that came out with the mstep test results recently a 10year low in those numbers I think like every Observer around Lancing and across the state we were disappointed in the numbers but also not entirely surprised to see the lingering impacts of the covid-19 pandemic the state superintendent talks a lot about the impact of virtual instruction um when we were not able to be in classrooms having an impact on those early Learners when we're trying to get at them um soon and and and quickly to to grasp those early reading skills um virtual instruction is not like entirely to blame here there are are great ways to do virtual instruction but as we looked at who's being tested um in this window it's not surprising to see that the students that sort of started out their careers during the pandemic um are the ones we're seeing lower test scores I do think um we need to realize these test scores are not the whole picture um we can't just look at uh we have a vaccine we know how protocols work so we have to move on and say that everything will go back to pre-pandemic levels and expectations and those types of things these students have lived through a trauma like no one else in history um in our country um and we can't just move on on the next day so there is a lot more that goes into uh teaching and learning than just the reading test scores it's very important don't get me wrong but I do think that um our educators are working hard to make sure that all components of teaching and learning are being addressed including that social and emotional learning piece that is important not necessarily reflected in those reading scores but sticking with those test scores I mean they've been pretty troubling for a while now but this is the lowest that they've been in 10 years and students have been back to school for a couple years now what was being done to try to improve these scores and and what isn't working sure I think one of the things that has been sort of frustrating and confounding for educators is is policy turn from the state capital constantly changing how we um how laws interplay with with curriculum and instruction for instance the third grade reading Law um that has a lot of positive components including intervention plans and those types of things but had the um retention component that we just recently eliminated um and I'll say we believe too that perhaps our screen tools that we have been using to identify students um that might have learning disabilities or reading disabilities excuse me and uh show characteristics of Dyslexia those screening tools might not be perfect so you're hearing about some conversations in Lancing about bills that would address this some of those bills are a huge over correction um with a lot of micromanagement uh steps what we're advocating for is is looking at those screening tools and making sure we have the best screening Tools in place to to identify students with reading disabilities and those that show characteristics of Dyslexia and then move them into those intervention plans that have been identified in the third grade reading Law past um I'm gonna forget the year now Zach Zack knows I've been around a long time so all the years kind of blur together here but um we've done that and I think we need to make sure also that goes with any of these changes in Law changes in tools is investment in solid professional development and giving our Educators the time they need to understand how the tool they're being asked to use work um and those types of things will help with um reading scores and um standardized test improvements Peter you I think you were referencing these screening bills that are pending in the House of Representatives right now the Michigan Senate passed them to to set a new standard on how to screen for dyslexia is is that what you're referring to and and how important is it that the legislature move those bills this year well I think it's important that they move the bills when they're right right now um they're overly prescriptive and change a whole lot of state law when really what we're seeing is if we would have a better screening tool to identify students with reading disabilities and characteristics of Dyslexia I think that's when um we could be supportive of legislation right now it's it's overly prescriptive and kind of discounts all the good and positive aspects that are in Michigan's third grade reading Law um those two the screening tool and the the intervention plans can play nicely together they the intervention plans identify what students will need once they are identified as as needing those interventions um we're what we're seeing from folks in the field and experts that are far more schooled in this topic than I am is that that screening tool is inadequate so it's not that the whole law is broken it's that we're not identifying enough students early enough to give them the interventions they need so I would not say it's imperative that bill moves quickly I'd say it's imperative we get that bill right and then move that bill and get a new screening tool in place um Peter so you were talking about the pandemics continuing influence on education and and how kids are doing it in school um the students who were in school in March of 2020 when the governor ended the school year at the start of the pandemic uh I think would be now like fifth grade at this point how How likely are we to see test scores just continue to struggle to recover for years to come you know Zach that might be outside of my area of expertise but I do think it's going to take a while to regain that um that that that time period in terms of um seeing results turn around um I don't want to say this is encouraging but what you're seeing is results are down across the board right it's not like a certain subset is seeing worse than the rest in comparison if if that's making sense so it is definitely seeing it's a it's a shared experience across the state so um I think that's going to take some time I don't know how long of that's going to take um not a great podcast answer but I do think that's outside of my um my area of expertise to say how long that's going to take sure the state has pumped a lot of money into K through 12 schools in recent years what's the case that this is having the desired effect well so the state has pumped um a lot of federal money in uh to the schools and I think when you look at our budgets they've remained um still underfunded from a sort of nonpartisan unbiased observation through the school Finance research collaborative which identified billions and billions of dollars in underfunding for meeting the standards that we've set for our students um the federal money was extremely helpful um with sort of one-time programs and and um purchases a lot of money went into HVAC improvements which is now one of the top recommendations from the CDC to help avoid spreading uh diseases like covid-19 is to invest in HVAC and we we've done a lot of that across the across the state with that Federal money um we know every researcher in the country um even those that were skeptical of Money Matters have changed their tune to money does matter um and it's not a matter of just pumping money into the system but it's a matter of putting the right dollars into the system and then having qualified Educators in front of students and all sorts of things that make sure we at the right curriculum that the the temperature is is comfortable that they're that they're eating that they're being fed while they're there that they can they can concentrate on teaching and learning um so I think the case if I if I'm circling back to your question which I'm trying to answer and maybe dance on a little bit but is what's the case that this has made a difference it is making a difference um but we are still underfunded and you know I think that's one of the criticisms of the school Lobby is that it's never enough well we've actually not seen enough come to the schools based on what they need to do their jobs effectively schools are pretty amazing uh entities and the people that work in them are pretty amazing individuals they do what they do with what they're given you know they make it work but they've been asked to make it work for quite some time while being underfunded so we will continue to advocate for new revenues um to uh bolster school funding and every year is more money than the last year because that's how generally speaking since we've pulled out of the recession our budgets have worked and tax collections have worked but we're still $13 billion under the Headley Revenue cap and I think only on mish mash can I talk about the Headley cap and and the listeners will understand what I'm talking about but that's that's a that's a staggering number that's almost doubling the school aid fund I'm not suggesting that's what we should do although I'm sure schools would would wouldn't mind an extra 13 billion but there's room there as the point to raise more revenues and invest in insurance ing that we provide the resources needed to educate the child not run a system so we've got a system of schools right that the the the funding formula implies every student costs the same amount of money to to to to educate with exceptions now we've got some categoricals that are starting to make differences in that weighted foundations and things like that but they're still not at their target weights so once we start fully funding those then we'll start I can start having a serious conversation about we've been providing adequate resources right now we've been providing more res resources than the year before but it still continues to fall short of what is needed to meet the standards we have in law so I think the you know average mishmash listener probably has a better knowledge of Headley than than your average person I'll just for those out there who may not know uh what what Peter's referring to was the headle amendment to the Michigan constitution in 1978 which did a lot of things but for purposes of this conver conversation uh set C apps on how much revenue uh Lo governments can raise and right now the state of Michigan is way under that cap so a number of folks in uh that provide various services like you know education and local government services have said hey look this has been too restrictive and we actually have a lot more room to grow so that's what that's what that's all about um there will not be a quiz at the end I think there's a saying Zach that if you think you know Headley you don't know Headley I think that's that's kind of and that's 100% accurate um are you you delved a little bit into the policy side of this equation as opposed to the budget side and I was curious to ask you are you surprised that the governor and this first democratic government in Big D Democratic in 40 years has not gone more deeply into the policy side of Education you know they have stepped up funding uh but as far as changing systems the governor and legislative Democrats have not really touched school systems curriculum or really much of anything in the school code other than repealing the potential for third graders not reading at grade level to be held back I know that was a mouthful but again are you surprised I'm following your question um I I'm surprised and not surprised right like you know we got a lot of Educators in the legislature right now and that's been working I think in our favor to help folks understand um good policy in the classroom right they they recently removed from being in front of the students and working in the legislature we saw a lot of um sort of Labor policy changes at the front end that that impacted the classroom related to tenure and evaluations and things like that I do think to some extent I will I'll Grant some credit I think folks in Lancing now are recognizing that maybe policy churn isn't so good and we've come back I think working with unions and other management groups to make recommendations on what should change things like repealing uh the third grade reading Law so in some cases I think our motto has been provide us the the adequate resources set some guard rails and let us do our jobs and to I I I think that's what we're seeing right now are there some laws we probably like to change yes we'd like to repeal some things like Labor Day start I think we' like a little bit more flexibility around the Merit curriculum and things like that but some of those are big lifts and some of those are not and some of those are issues we've learned to work with we understand the law we understand how to work with it so changing it again creates a whole new churn so to some respects it's almost a relief that we're not seeing a lot of policy bills because it allows Educators to focus on educating instead of learning what the state is now asking us to do while educating so what's on your wish list for Action before the end of the legislative term oh you know I think we're looking at we want to see um it should surprise no one on this on this uh group that we want to see the rate cap reduction that the legislature passed and the governor signed into the budget passed into statutory law um in some way shape or form so Peter let's I'm gonna stop you there you're goingon to need to explain that for people what are you talking about don't they they they must read ganger right so they steeped in what this is so school districts um several years back uh during some retirement reforms uh paid unlimited amount of money it was it was not capped how much they were going to pay towards the retirement system to fund retirement and other post-employment benefits for their employees um that cap went into place around 20.9 6% and it's been that way for about a decade um recently um it was discovered that there was um an overfunding of the OPB the other post-employment benefits so Healthcare dental and vision for school retirees um that freed up about $700 million about you know 680 I think was the the the total number um and that was going to could be used for other things uh the school Community coalesced around buying down that 2.96 rate cap by the full amount um to provide relief to school districts who are paying that almost 21 cents on the dollar for payroll for the retirement system and lowering that freeing up money to be used in other places the legislature put that into the budget the governor signed that and so now that rate cap has been reduced um in the budget but in order to ensure its longevity it needs to be done in statute um alongside that the legislature provided a reimbursement for what some employees are paying towards their retirement benefits uh currently some employees pay 3% of their salary to the uh office of Retirement Services we collect that on their behalf the legislature provided money to reimburse those um employees that 3% um it's creating some confusion out in the field because folks think the 3% went away when in reality what happened is they're getting reimbursed for it so we are still as a district required to collect that 3% um and then we give them a check back on a schedule yet to be determined OS just the office of Retirement Services just released a memo um late last week or possibly early this week uh clarifying that we still have to collect it and that we should expect our first reimbursement payments in November but that that date is subject to change and um we don't know yet whether it will be in all of our state aid whether we'll pay uh reimburse employees on a monthly basis give them one large check at the end of the year um so that's why it's important that statutory fix gets gets done um there's a few other um you know sort of things we'd like to see um repealing the Labor Day start is one I I knew you were going to ask me question and I don't have my list in front of me but there's just most of it is probably going to be around budgetary items um there is a a quirk in the law PA 152 established a cap for Health Care um uh how much an employer a public employer could pay so it was either 20% of the premium or a certain dollar amount cap there's a hard cap or or 20% cap 80% cap excuse me um that was expected to go um up by CPI and this year CPI is going to be 0. 2% so that's going to result in some really large increases for employees so I I I don't know that it's on my wish list but it's certainly something that administrators are dealing with now and employees will deal with later so potentially um some healthc care um tweaks are probably on the lame duck agenda um but you know and then as far as the budget goes we'd like to see a supplemental to sort of invest in some of those line items that we were not able to see dollars in um in the original budget that passed in June so a couple of follow-ups on that um when you say talk about the Labor Day start you know Michigan's current law has been the case for a while where uh Friday before Labor Day is a mandatory no school day and some districts start in mid to late August then do the four- day weekend while other districts are go old old school no pun intended and they start the day after Labor Day which is how were for many years are you saying you want the schools your members would like to go back to everybody just starts after Labor Day or or something else no so um what actually is going on Zach is there schools are required to uh get a waiver from the Department of Education to start before Labor Day right now many many schools do they have to go through this process we're advocating for just eliminating that process um it it was up for a vote um and it got pulled early on so that's just one of those that we've been trying for years I think it's it's an easy policy win but nothing um not not going back to a post Labor Day start so Peter thank you so much for joining us today on mishmash it's been a pleasure [Music]