when you lack character you're a poor judge of character nowhere was that more obvious than in Trump's attempt to steal the election with the aid of a stunning cast of not ready for Prime Time Players what we are really dealing with here and uncovering more by the day is the massive influence of communist money through Venezuela Cuba and likely China our votes are counted in Germany and in Spain by a company owned by Affiliates of Chavez and Maduro we aren't going to let this election be stolen by Joe Biden and the Democrats president Trump won by a landslide he could take military capabilities and he could place them in those States and basically rerun an election in each of those States they were convicted and parted criminals like Michael Flynn and Roger Stone the my pillow guy the overstock.com guy Judy Giuliani Marjorie Taylor green and Sydney Powell the attorney whose meritless lawsuits and conspiracy theories didn't release the Kraken so much as incriminate her and jeopardize her law license Jeffrey Clark who proposed to take over the justice department and use it to bolster Trump's fake accounts of election fraud and who ended up having his house rid for election interference while he stood in his driveway in his underwear all those people empowered Trump and worked to facilitate an attempted coup even while well let's remember other people in the White House like Trump's own White House Council Pat syone tried to stop them I opened the door and I walked in I saw General Flynn I saw Sydney Powell sitting there I was not happy to see the people were in the oal office explain what well again I I don't think they were providing well first of all the Overstock person I I've never met never never knew who this guy was actually the first thing I did I walked in I looked at him and I said who are you and he told me I don't think I don't think any of these people were providing the president with good advice and so I I I didn't understand how they had gotten in I'll tell you how they got in P syone the president of the United States invited them in he wanted overstock.com guy right there there was a reason that Donald Trump cleaved to the most whacked out power-hungry reality denying weirdos in his inner circle instead of listening to his more cautious White House Personnel or his top lawyers the Department of Justice or his vice president and his vice president staff as he felt his power slipping away Trump very consciously invested his energy in people who would indulge his insecurities people who would encourage him to follow his worst instincts and cling to Power by any means necessary up to and including staging the first attempted coup in American history remember Donald Trump was so mad he left Washington without even attending his successor's inauguration lasting image of his final days in power was him inciting Insurrection egged on by the cooks who he invited into his Entourage that happened that's scary enough but but but but here we are again so look who he is keeping around him now for instance farri media personality Laura lomer a self-identified proud islamophobe who says she's pro- white nationalism she's called kamla Harris a drug using prostitute and who has been called appalling and extremely racist by congresswoman Marjorie Taylor green of all people now yesterday we told you how lomer who's called for the execution of Trump's political enemies and celebrated violence against migrants got a ride from Trump on his private jet to this week's debate how she then accompanied the former president to a 911 memorial observance in Manhattan despite or who knows maybe because of the fact she's a 911 truther we told you how elected Republicans and campaign officials Allah patalon have grown concerned over Trump's increasingly um close relationship with lomer they certainly seem very close many Insider saying she's encouraged Trump to push the conspiracy theories he's now spouting on the campaign Trail one thing is certain Trump is kind of enamored with lumer right now it's great to have you and you've been really very special you work hard and you are you are a very opinionated lady I have to tell you that and in my opinion I like that so I appreci I appreciate all of your support and You' been and everybody appreciates your support thank you thank thank you thank you so much for inviting me to sit with you today pleasure you're the best I love you it's kind of sweet in its own weird way now all this came to a head today at Trump's latest press availability where after a few days of people asking like what the hell is going on here he was asked Point Blank by reporters about his closeness to lumer and her nutty extremism what would you say to your Republican colleagues or your allies who are concerned about your close relationship with Laura lomer well I don't know what they would say I Laura's been a supporter of mine just like a lot of people are supporters and she's been a supporter of mine she speaks very uh positively of the campaign I'm not sure why you asked that question but Laura is a supporter uh I don't control Laura Laura has to say what she wants she's a she's a free spirit well I don't know I mean look I can't tell Laura what to do Laura is a supporter I have a lot of supporters uh but I so I don't know what uh exactly you're referring to okay yeah please I just don't know Laura is a supporter I don't know she is she is a strong person she's got strong opinions and I don't know what she said but that's not up to me she's a supporter let's see she's a she's a free spirit can't keep that burden in a cage she's got to be herself she got to express herself and say things like 911 was an inside job she's a strong person and maybe 100 times she's a supporter so what can I do doesn't matter what the person does they're a supporter that may all be true but it's not true that Trump is unfamiliar with Lum statements and you know how I know that well because just yesterday he was sharing links to lum's website on his own social media accounts meanwhile today lumer is today today posting more 911 conspiracy theories to her own social media I'm not going to share them with you while some Republicans are grumbling about Trump's closeness to lumer others are following his lead today the bull workk reported that the national Republican senatorial committee a group that's been doing a bang-up job by the way the gop's official campaign arm for the chamber has increasingly relied on the video content lumer produces since July the nrsc has promoted eight of lum's videos featuring her reporters who shout loaded questions from the street at Democratic senators up for reelection in Battleground races make no mistake if Donald Trump becomes president again Laura lumer is gonna be there on day one she might even end up in his administration Laura lummer has turned out to be a warrior for your dad y some you pulled up the scpt screen I hope she's press secretary when yours listen she's she's a bulldog man I'll say that she gets after it you know I I'd love to press secretary just to watch DC just explode that was Don Jr back in November of last year again this is not I can't stress this enough this is not like incidental trivial stuff it's not guilt by association thing oh you like some tweet no no no no no no it's Trump's Mo openly embracing supporters with the most extreme vile authoritarian bloodthirsty impulses to match and deepen his own and then empowering them and using them to facilitate his own worst impulses we saw it already we've been through it it's not theoretical on January 6 6th that's what we are heading for again very obviously that's why it matters that a free-spirited openly racist deeply troubled 911 truther who wants to prosecute perceived opponents for treason is getting so very very close to Donald Trump Michael steel is former chair of the Republican National Committee and co-host of the weekend here on MSNBC Olivia noty is Washington correspondent for New York Magazine for latest piece she spent some time with Trump at Mar Lago after the assassination attempt anding to lead up to this week's debate and they join me now um Michael you I want to read for you what Tom Tillis who um yeah it is sort of I guess clinging to like some bulkhead of normal a beach head of normal republicanism although not really guy's very extreme guy but he says today Laura lomer is a crazy conspiracy theorist who regularly utters disgusting garbage intended to divide of Republicans a DNC plant couldn't do a better job than she is doing to her president Trump's chances of winning reelection enough I imagine that's widely shared and yet and yet and yet yeah and yet and yet some more I mean because where was Tillis when Trump told the proud boys to stand back and stand by where was till us when Donald Trump said they're fine people on both sides and yes he did say it and where where were any of these folks as this calade of crazy moved closer and closer around Trump they were nowhere why because they didn't care why because they were making a Moola they were getting the votes they weren't turning on them and so they were useful tools by the useful idiots who made as much as they could of it the interesting thing about all of this and I find the most compellingly amusing and I know you will Mr Hayes is that Marjorie Taylor green seems to be a little bit out of sorts about all of this and I wonder why that is I wonder why that is cray cray is upset about even more cray well the reality of it is that's all a part of this this ongoing you know dance of you know who's going to be the housewife of Donald Trump kind of thing who's going to be the closest to him who's going to have that influence but note this and you put your finger on a lot of it Donald Trump has these people around him not because he's seeking advice from them not because they're offering any pretty any particular ual Insight but because they affirm his worst instincts they affirm his bad judgment they tell him what they want you show that picture of lumer sitting standing up under Donald Trump first question crossed my mind was where the hell is Melania because that's a little too close for a pick but it's it's that kind of it's that kind of closeness that Donald Trump's like so here we are on a Friday night getting loomy let we go well the the point about rer green Olivia you've obviously covered the man for uh almost a decade at this point and this there's two parts of the mo here that are that are very consistent one the point I made about January 6 where you know sometimes really deranged people get very close to him but he also likes it when the people around him fight each other and fight each other publicly and fight each other brutally because that is that feeds the kind of ego addiction like they're doing this for me and it seems like he you know this all happening in front of him and in front of the nation is kind of what he enjoys yeah yeah I mean he is a reality TV host let's never forget that but let's also not forget that his political rise on the right began uh in in this era anyway with his promotion of the racist conspiracy that Barack Obama was not born in this country he was one of the central promoters of so-called birtherism he claimed that he was sending uh investigators to Hawaii I happen to be talking about this recently with Sam nunberg who who worked for him briefly on the 2016 campaign and had worked for him before that at the Trump organization and ber said something like yeah we never sent investigators it was all made up he was playing into this sort of racist backlash uh of the tea party uh to Barack Obama's Rise um and so none of this is like aberant Behavior to have Laura lumer around um to have any of these types of people around him uh they're not there because they're bringing A New Perspective they're there as Michael said because they are affirming what was already his worldview and the the aberant stuff is when he had more measured people around him people with more actual political experience so all of this is just sort of a return to what it was like in in 2013 2014 2015 yes that's a great Point yeah and then the last days of that Administration you know the the sort of run up to January 6 and post when the the the kind of HR McMaster Pat sealon were they weren't there it was the more it was the Overstock guy the pillow guy you know your your lomers your bance and your Stones go ahead Olivia and and even just his is more is more just sort of run-of-the-mill White House staffers who who traditionally he might ask them what they think about something if they were telling him sir you lost they he would yell and scream and they really didn't want to be anywhere near him and in that void you had the city powels and Bry giulian of the world and we also saw how that worked out um but when his back is up against the wall he likes these sort of Creature Comforts I think it's why he has people like Cory lowski back in the fold now he wants to feel like this is 2016 again uh because he won that and I will just say this final point that the stakes here are very high cuz if he were to win day one is like we're going to do the mass deportation there's going to be people telling him this is a disaster and you can't do it and there's going to be people telling him no you can't and like that's going to matter a lot uh who who those people are I I can identify some of them if I could just say I mean I think it was very easy to laugh at this at the time but there was always an argument from people working in that Administration if we weren't here you don't have any idea how bad it would right you don't know what we prevent on a daily basis and there was a tendency to ey roll um and say oh of course you could justify any self-serving decision to be in close proximity to power that way but January 6th I think sort of Vindicated that worldview right if if Mike P had been JD Vance how would that have worked out yeah yeah that's where're we're about to rerun here Michael steel and Olivia NY thank you both still to come uh kamla Harris rallies and what could be the most important swing St of the Year Pennsylvania's lieutenant governor joins me on what she needs to do to win [Music] next so Pennsylvania three days ago Donald Trump and I had our debate you watched it you'll remember that night I talked about issues that mattered to families Across America but that is not what we heard from Donald Trump instead it was the same old old show the same tired Playbook we've heard for years with no plan no plan on how he would address the needs of the American people well folks it's time to turn the page com Harris is in Pennsylvania tonight which may very well be the most important Tipping Point State in this year's election vice president spoke to a crowd of thousands in wilbury it's a former coal mining town in LZ County Place Donald Trump won by more than 14 points in 2020 however crucially his margin 20120 was Slimmer than it was in 2016 when Trump defeated Hillary Clinton by 19 points and that keeping that Trend going is the formula for Statewide success in Pennsylvania kamla Harris needs to keep her attention on places like wilbury where she is not going to win outright but she could lose by less than her predecessor did and every little bit can help Harris get over the top and win the all important state Austin Davis is the Democratic lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania Charlie Dent is a former Pennsylvania Congressman now a senior advisor at our Republican Legacy an initiative to bring back traditional Republican principles and they both join me now L Governor let me start with you because you were on a ticket with Governor Josh airo uh in 2022 that that ran really ran what a 57 County strategy in the Commonwealth and it paid off in those margins in lots of counties in which your ticket didn't outright win but but shaved those margins how important is it to get out around the state uh for for the Democratic ticket well thank you Chris for having me today it's great to be with you uh it's 67 counties here in Pennsylvania and it's critically important because you can't win with just Democrats alone here in Pennsylvania you have to build a coalition of Democrats Republicans and independents uh to win this state and so you can't just rely on big cities like Philadelphia and Pittsburgh to carry you across the Finish Line you have to go uh to counties where it may not easy be easy to be a Democrat at times and you have to talk to those voters and connect with them and talk about how we're going to make their lives better uh that's exactly what Josh Shapiro and I did in our campaign for governor and lieutenant governor and you're seeing vice president Harris do that with her stops in wils Bear uh and Johnstown today you know you have to make sure you get out in these counties because we we know this election is going to be closed the last presidential election was decided by less than a percentage point and in a scenario like that the margins really do matter uh Charlie the the the vice president sat down with a local uh affiliate I think outside Philadelphia today or Philadelphia affiliate while she was in the state and gave an interview and she sort of hit this this central theme that I think is part there's a sort of substantive appeals to folks in the center who may not be Democrats and then there's a kind of thematic rhetorical one which which I think has been Central we saw in the debate I want you to take a listen and tell me what you think this is K Harris speaking to a local reporter in Pennsylvania in my heart I know in my soul I know that the vast majority of us as Americans have so much more in common than what separates us and I also believe that I am accurate in knowing that most Americans want a leader who brings us together as Americans and not someone who professes to be a leader who is trying to have us Point our fingers at each other I think people are exhausted with that approach to be honest with you what do you think about the exhausted line that sort of unite or not divider approach Charlie well I think that type of message will resonate I I do think that people do get frustrated with Donald Trump because of his own personal grievances you know they're exhausted with all of his uh complaints about January 6th and now he's getting off on tangents on our people eating the immigrants eating pets in Springfield Ohio they're they're tired and exhausted with it so I think that's actually that's a message that resonates and and Chris I do need to point out and I agree with Governor Davis that you know there are 67 counties in Pennsylvania and between 2016 and 2020 Donald Trump did marginally worse in 66 out of 67 counties from 2016 to 2020 he did a l worse the only County he did marginally better in was Philadelphia where that's right yeah he was beaten he was beaten badly there but he did a little bit better there but every other county is where his margin slipped and I think the Harris campaign is trying to maybe take a little bit of a page out of the Biden playbook in Pennsylvania where you try to shave down the margins in all these other states because the Democrats will lose most of the counties by a considerable margin but they'll win the big counties with the big population centers uh and that's that's where the game is but they have to go to wilbury and Johnstown and other places like that where they're going to lose but maybe by a little less Governor I want to talk to you about something that yeah go ahead no I was going to say just to jump in there I I think you know we as Democrats have to go to places where it's not comfortable to be Democrats we have to compete and every Community we can't leave any Community behind and I think particularly as a party uh we haven't focused enough on Rural communities and I think that's what Josh Shapiro and I have been doing and I think that's what we're seeing vice president Harris do let me let me ask you this just to follow up with you on on it is so it's a little strange to me have to say I understand that there that fracking has been a a large driver of Industry uh in Pennsylvania it's been Central a bunch of people there's a weird way in which like it Pennsylvania equals the issue of fracking is this kind of like conventional political wisdom that I just have a hard time squaring the math on like there's 26 35,000 that people that have jobs in the industry there's 13 million people in the state I understand it's important to some folks do you think fracking is as like Central to the minds of Voters in Pennsylvania lieutenant governor then I'll ask you Charlie yeah look I think overall Pennsylvania is a big industrial State we're an energy producing state uh and I think folks are concerned about their jobs and their family's economic well-beings they're concerned about the jobs that they have today being there tomorrow and so I think when people talk about fracking I think it encompasses a lot of that and I think many times Democrats have not necessarily embraced an all the above energy strategy uh and folks in particularly communities like mine in the Mon Valley region of alagan County that big steel country have seen jobs leave and they know how that devastates a community and so folks want to continue to see a bright economic future and they want a leader uh who's going to fight for that future I think kamla Harris has demonstrated that she's that leader what I would add go ahead yeah the tracking in the natural gas industry really does speak to the industrial Heritage of Pennsylvania steel coal cement this is a state that has been known for basic industry and energy and so I think it's absolutely a front- of Mind issue to a lot of a lot of pennsylvanians and and I I think it's something too where you know Donald Trump you know is uh he's making hay out of it but Harris had to get herself adjusted on that issue because it speaks to a lot of working Americans who can identify with that industry and in Pennsylvania by the way it's we're the second largest natural gas producing state in the nation and we've helped change we Pennsylvania have helped change the Dynamics of energy throughout the world and so I think many pennsylvanians are aware of the impact that is not just in America but throughout the world well fossil fuel extraction under the Biden Harris Administration has set all-time records for any country ever in the history of the world Pennsylvania lieutenant governor Austin Davis former Congressman Charlie Dent thank you both thank you coming up back in 2016 JD Vance called Trump anti-immigrant lies reprehensible now he's helping spread them what you need to know about the latest turn in the Maga strategy [Music] next nearly eight years ago on October 9th 2016 JD Vance who was then a Silicon Valley consultant or something or other posted a tweet about the Republican Presidential nominee Trump makes people I care about afraid immigrants Muslims Etc because of this I find him reprehensible God wants better of us was an accurate assessment of what Donald Trump said he would do if he won that election he ran on building a wall on the southern border making Mexico pay for it he called Mexican immigrants criminals drug dealers and rapists complained about a Mexican-American judge proposed Mass deportation and banning Muslim travelers from entering the country so now fast forward to this election JD Vance is Donald Trump's running mate on the Republican ticket and has turned his back on God wants better now JD Vance is actively helping Donald Trump make the people he loves scared together they are running the same Playbook spewing dangerous lies about immigrants and the pet stuff today it's the plan to be clear to talk about it every single day to make people afraid and put innocent people in danger because they think it's good for the campaign it's why Vance posted today don't let biased media shame you into not discussing this slow moving humanitarian crisis in a small Ohio town we should talk about it every single day well because JD Vance Donald Trump have not stopped talking about these lies the people of that small Ohio town which is like 60,000 people not that small are facing bomb threats for the second day in a row they weren't facing that before this but now they are schools were evacuated today and again municipal buildings were closed again this is the Republican strategy this is how they're helping the people of Springfield Ohio JD Vance and Donald Trump think they will win votes with their xenophobic lies so they are spreading them on purpose and clearly don't care who gets hurt Adam serwer is a staff writer at the Atlantic where he recently wrote about the gullible Mr Trump who will believe or anything as long as it's cruel politically expedient and on TV he joins me now I don't think uh I think you and I would agree it doesn't really matter whether he believes this stuff but it was striking when in the debate he was sort of fact checked on these this sort of slander and said well I saw people say it on TV like well that's good enough yeah the the these people are here legally they are working hard they are doing everything that Republicans say that they want immigrants to do and Donald Trump and J Vance are lying about these people because they are black immigrants and the most cynical part about it is that the plan here is to provoke a lot of criticism that they are being racist on the assumption that white voters will be insulted by those accusations yes and support Trump they have failed to bait KLA Harris into saying something that could make racism the big issue of the election in this way so they're now torturing this small community in the hopes that they can frighten enough white voters to win the election it's reprehensible it's one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen in American politics and honestly Chris it makes me enraged I I feel exactly the same as you and and there's something else about it too that that point is so so smart and true like the inability to race bait kamla Harris uh and get a r on her so now you know you just direct your eye like a bunch of random people are trying to go about their their lives and make their way and and and you know end up with bomb threats at schools but there's also this other thing that happened in 2016 I think it's happening again I think they learned the lesson that being outrageous and offensive and disgusting on this issue makes it the front and center issue and they think as long as it's people are talking about immigration no matter how offensive it is they're winning every day you're talking so and so there's a I think there's a deliberate strategy to say disgusting things because it does that attentional thing that they want well even when you're pointing out that these are this is a racist slander this is a completely fabricated lie that they're repeating over and over and over again even when you are debunking it you are repeating it so it gets into people's heads uh and so it makes the issue more Salient uh and and that's exactly what they're trying to do Chris they're trying to make this the issue even though it's not the issue um they're trying to do that because they hope that this sort of race baiting will give them a political advantage and they're terrorizing the small community to do it it's absolutely disgusting you know the thing I keep thinking about I know you're you're um uh you're black and Jewish Adam and and um have have sort of written about both of those traditions in your life and just thinking about like this you know there's a lot of folks who came here from places like Ukraine and pale of the settlement and whose ancestors literally fled because some um reprehensible demagogue started spreading lies about what their people were doing like this isn't some abstraction like there's thousands hundreds thousand millions of people who are here because the thing that drove them away from their country was someone saying they're doing this disgusting thing this person committed this crime and it's not like some abstract you know strategy it's one of the oldest ways that violence is engineered against groups that we know Chris it's the reason why most of the American population is here virtually every group in America that that is descended from immigrants is was the target of this kind of these kinds of lies and hatred that they were bringing disease that they were bringing crime that they were ruining the country that they were taking people's jobs that they didn't want to work that they didn't want to assimilate and the tragic history of this Chris is that the people who are targeted by these lies then turn around and tell the same lies about other people and that is in part what we are seeing here today Adam serwer from the Atlantic um thank you so much for your time tonight man Donald Trump is still lying about Democrats weaponizing the doj against him meanwhile The Woman flying around on his plane is calling for his political opponents to be tried and executed for treason very real dangers of a second Trump term ahead last Saturday we held the first ever MSNBC Live Fan event called democracy 2024 here in New York City it was a huge success and it was so great to meet all the dedicated viewers who came from near and far to see us I got a kick out of it and at the event I got to sit down with my favorite guest in the world I got to say someone who for contractual reasons I don't get the chance to interview here on my very own TV show my brilliant wife Kate Shaw so uh we're going to talk a little bit about the election that's coming up um and particularly the legal um landscape around it something that you've spent a lot of time thinking about you've been sort of a practitioner too you in a previous life you worked a little bit on the campaign and you worked in the transition you worked in the White House council's office so I wanted to just start with a question about how folks that are not necessar legal experts who are watching this like what you're looking for in terms of issue spotting because obviously there's a lot of litigation in the last 2020 election it was all frivolous um it didn't really amount to anything but what you're kind of like looking out for in the legal landscape both now till election day and then the post elction period sure I mean I think at the outset margins are everything right so we have this idea of a margin of litigation right if an election is close enough in a particular State litigation could turn an L into a w it could actually change the outcome we were spared really having a state within the margin of litigation in 2020 so you had pretty close outcomes in Wisconsin and Arizona and Georgia but not in the couple hundred votes or even low thousand votes which I think might have put us within the margin of litigation and thus you know really thrown into question the outcome in those states that is a key point that I've been thinking about ever since she said it um it was a great conversation an amazing event and now guess what you can watch that and much more because tomorrow night at 9:00 P p.m. Eastern we will Air MSNBC Live democracy 2024 a special 2-hour presentation of that Premier Fan event those are all the people that were there tune in for compelling conversations featuring myself along with Rachel mat and Jens Saki and many of the others you see there about this historic election plus behind the-scenes stories insights from your favorite hosts that's tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here in MSNBC streaming on peacock don't miss [Music] it department of justice has been really busy these in case you haven't noticed they are conducting multiple investigations into the administration of New York city mayor Eric Adams a Democrat FBI searches of some of his closest Inner Circle of led to resignations including the resignation just this week of the New York City Police Chief who had his phone seized doj has also won a corruption conviction against another very prominent Democrat New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez who resigned from the Senate as a result anounced he won't be running for a reelection they both they got both a conviction against Hunter G Biden on gun charges and a guilty plea on tax charges that could send him to prison the doj under President Joe Biden is as you can see from those examples very obviously exercising total independence from either personal or partis and incentives that's the way it's supposed to be ever since president Richard Nixon resigned from office in disgrace after trying to weaponize the doj to his own political ends yet one of the things on the table in this election is that Donald Trump very clearly wants to use the justice department purely as a partisan weapons and Chief Justice John Roberts went out of his way to give his blessings for this in the court 63 immunity decision July those in Trump's Inner Circle Echo this like Laura lomer the far-right woman riding around with Trump on his plane who has said that some democrats should get the death penalty Trump is not trying to hide any of this this is part of his campaign and vision for his second term and a for NBC News David RH writes that Trump is increasingly vowing to prosecute political foes is becoming more explicit in describing plans to use the Department of Justice to prosecute scores of people he has declared corrupt and David Rose joins me now he's a senior executive editor for National Security NBC News he's got a new book on this topic it's titled where tyranny Begins the justice department the FBI and the war on Democracy um David it's great to have you on and I'm so glad you wrote this book because I think in the the Trump era the independence of the justice department is like the loaded gun sitting on the table for the story of whether American democracy survives in its current form what do you think I I I agree and um and we'll talk more but in the end Bill bar of all people did the right thing he stood up and said no bill you know Joe Biden won this won the 2020 election and more importantly the Judiciary held the Supreme Court we'll talk about the immunity decision but the Supreme Court and 60 other federal and state judges all rejected Trump's claims of massive voter fraud and Joe Biden became the president and the question is if we do have a disputed election that narrow margin your wife talked about earlier what will happen what how will the Judiciary respond well there's so there's that there's how the Judiciary responds in you know in contest election but let's say Donald Trump wins say he wins you know outright fair and square wins a popular vote wins a bunch of Swing States this question of of of of the justice department I mean explain to me the understanding and the kind of norms and internal institutions in the Justice Department from Nixon to now that have that have really policed against actively it being essentially just a partisan weapon it's been an extraordinary extraordinarily successful half century 50 years of Democratic and Republican presidents fearing what happened to Nixon they they feared if they meddled in a criminal investigation tried to punish an enemy or protect a friend that they'd be forced to resign and it worked until Trump and he very aggressively um attacked the justice department tried to co-opt it tried to intimidate the workers there um and I examine it in the book the first half is on the Trump era and it's a series of of tactics that he uses over and over again uh one main one is it's a style of practicing law called uh law or LOL laugh out loud nothing matters lawyering and it's a practice that you know it's a I guess Roy con 2.0 but you bring a lawsuit or you make a legal argument to achieve three goals one is to dominate The Press to get your message out your version of you know the law or fact um two to own Libs and three to impress Donald Trump and I spoke to Career doj officials who it took them months and some years to figure this out that it was it wasn't about winning the case legally on the facts it was sort of about messaging and getting a political win that's how you use the justice department you know one of the things he had a long post uh uh on Saturday about the 2024 election the rampant cheating and when he said among other things when I win those people that cheated will be prosecuted to the full extent end of the law which will include long-term prison sentences uh including in that list of people lawyers political operatives donors illegal voters corrupt election officials I mean and one level you can say oh well this is him just you know talking trash and but you know Robert says in the immunity decision that there's you have anything you tell the justice department to do is fully within your constitutional rights as president up to an including it would appear like go prosecute that person and therefore can never be prosecuted as a crime afterwards that does seem to me like giving an enormous invitation to Trump's worst impulses with the Department in a second term in short yes I mean he in addition to what you cited he's talked about recently about Prosecuting um CDC officials from the Center for Disease Control the Food and Drug Administration but to explain the the historical context in this um conservative legal thinkers members of the federal Society they feel that the Watergate the post Watergate reforms went too far and weaken the presidency that this massive country needs a strong president to hold it together and so Roberts and Bill bar feel that you know voters you know a president should have absolute immunity can tell an attorney general to prosecute who they want and they'll be held accountable by voters every four years the problem is you know what happens when the president doesn't accept the election results well and also obviously like the prosecutorial power is just like so right for abuse I mean I you know in a in a sort of presidentialist democracy you can say like for instance like Joe Biden after that immunity decision could have been like called up the justice department and said start an investigation of Clarence Thomas' taxes right now like we all understand that's wildly improper right and I think would would trample on core constitutional protections equal protection due process but like that's not some that's not a theoretical idea and and that's the change that came out with the immunity ruing ruling um judge aen Cannon's ruling throwing out the classified documents case and that did not happen in 2020 I want to go back there were Trump appointed judges there were this this Supreme Court um you know held up the election so judges can make the right decisions but Trump has the power now to indict who he wants David RH uh thank you all that book is called where tyranny begins uh you can check it out now thanks a lot that is all in for this week or is or Al for for m or number Allah was or for for or for