Chase Down Podcast Live, presented by fubo: Celtics Offseason Review with Bob Manning

[Music] a [Music] [Music] this crowd Rises to its feet Theo slammed it home darar left wing free ball perfect darar of the lane lock the Bly Po and Allen blocked the shot at The Rim how with the left hand and a foul as media family I'm your host Justin Rowan the chase down is presented by fubo the official streaming partner of the Cavs watch over 350 channels of live sports and TV including B Sports Ohio without cable there's no cost and no commitment try for free at fubotv.com Cavs we are inching closer and closer to the start of training camp just under a month away now uh from camps opening us up and US finally getting some news some things to talk about some basketball some pre-season but until then we are still firmly in preview time of year and joining me today is my co-host Carter Rodriguez Carter how you doing buddy uh I just burped directly to the mic without muting so I don't know I'm not my sharpest I'll tell you that much well we'll fix it in post as I so often do but that that's okay buddy you know it it's still still is before even preseason you know this is when you're going to kind of iron out some of those kings so it's forgivable and by that uh you mean just be terribly out of shape and yeah I'm more of a Shaquille O'Neal type of podcaster you know I I use the first couple weeks of the season to work myself into shape right now I'm just smashing hogies and and beers and you know whatever it may be uh and I'm not I'm not in game shape at all brother God bless it's the summer that's that's how you should be treating it we we don't need any of that but I am very excited to introduce Our Guest one of the teams I'm most looking forward to talk about as we do these previews of course when we talk Boston Celtics we're going to bring on Bobby Manning from clns how you doing Bobby welcome back to the podcast great guys how you guys doing uh we're doing great we signed Luke Travers my my my my crush my draft and stash stash Crush for the past three years Bob has been signed to a two-way I I'm riding High I can't believe Justin didn't lead the Pod with it I I was actually going to introduce Bobby first and then I was going to let you have the floor completely going to make Bobby be completely disengaged I was like if we start with this he's just going to be sitting there looking pretty on the YouTube stream sitting quietly people on the podcast are going to have no idea until he chimes in in like 10 minutes I have to introduce him first Carter you have the floor just for a little bit get little excitement give give the people what they want about this Luke Trav signing listen man as I've said before I just I when I watch this guy I just don't I just see all the ways that he could fit needs that this Cavs team doesn't have proper Wing size at 67 uh a a uh you know an intangibles God a man who gets his hand on deflections makes has unbelievable Vision uh as a passer and just unbelievable feel as a cutter um obviously the three-point shot is the swing skill that will determine whether he's an NBA player or not but the reality is unlike a lot of Shooters who are useless if they are not hitting their open threes on offense uh I think his passing ability as a as a connector uh his cutting ability and his athleticism in size will make him a useful offensive player pretty much no matter what especially with some of the lineups the Cavs can play him with and I just I thought we weren't going to learn any more about him in Australia and I think if the Cavs were wanted to figure out if this guy had a chance at being an NBA Talent this was the way to do it and you know I think I said this to you maybe offline but I think that with your two way spots what you really want is a combined percentage chance of one of them being a proper NBA player of being over 50% so if it's like a 20% chance and a 20% chance and a 20% chance I think you're probably making pretty good use of your two ways because it's hard to find NBA players uh that are that can be actual rotation guys so I I think the Cavs two-way strategy you know is hitting that Mark so far I'm really really excited about Luke on this team all right sorry Bobby thank you it's okay it's important for Bobby to to hear a little bit of this because if there's one thing the past few years has have told us guys the Cavs like promote from the G league and whatnot will come back and kill the Celtics at some point whether it's Dean Wade or or some of these other guys Lamar Stevens from within like they're they're going to find ways to kill you yeah and then the Cavs they had like a Craig Porter last year right so you'll find some guys there who make impacts and I I love the two-way thing Carter because it's hard it's difficult I feel like for years all Celtics fans were saying why can't we get one of those two-way guys like the heat do and some of these other teams do and then last year they finally did with the Mayes kada so when you hit on it it's amazing because you have pretty much free season from a guy and I think that's important now in a league that's more depth oriented I think than having you know two three stars um making all the difference at least at the top end you still need the stars but you need the dep too so developing finding unsung guys at least to get through the regular season is important and now Carter we both have favorite players named Luke there we go baby we did it and and you know the thing I like too is you know there's been so much conversation about how the Cavs need to add wings and when you look at now Luke Travers and ammani Bates confirmed as Cavs two-way signings there's some reporting that that JT Thor may join that group we'll wait for that to be confirmed but you got three guys with wing size then you add Jaylen Tyson who you know is a wing that's the same size as a Jaylen Brown in the first round of the draft and you just kind of Hope from a Player Development standpoint you can do that because when you look at the top teams in the East and Boston in particular you guys have no shortage of wings uh I I want to reflect first uh Bobby on kind of the year that was I I know I had come on your podcast a couple times I was probably more optimistic about the Celtics than you I that's probably a form of self preservation but what was the most surprising thing for you uh when you look back at that Celtics Championship run the level of consistency the level of dominance it never stopped I 16 and three they looked like the regular season version of themselves pretty much the whole way through and we can get into some of the easiest path ever injury break stuff that people are tossing around But as time goes on you forget about that stuff and you just look back at the numbers and you look back at the dominance on both ends of the floor uh that they played with throughout that they played with without christas porzingis for pretty much the entirety of the run it was amazing to watch in real time because as you know from our conversations Justin it was hard to believe that it was going to last or that something wasn't going to go wrong along the way until you're sitting there I'd say about the point where Denver went out and Celtics are starting to make their way into an East finals against the Pacers instead of the Knicks where you're like oo all right and then it's Dallas starting to come on the other side and you like all right that's a pretty good matchup and that's where I started to say all right this might be happening here and then it happened in the form of a East final sweep and a five-game NBA finals which is still hard to believe and honestly the Celtics might have got a tougher push in round two against Cleveland than they did in the East finals or the finals which is pretty amazing to think about so yes you're anticipating my rundown you anticipating my rundown because that was one of my questions which was how did the Cavs kind of rank among the the most challenging matchups that they had yeah they were the most challenging I thought by far especially since they put a defensive test out there that I thought prepared the Celtics pretty well for some of the stuff they saw later on help around the basket multiple bodies inside I feel like Tatum struggled through that second round and his passing at the very least even if his shooting didn't come around based on what he saw in that series and the Pacers were a little bit of a different challenge uh their defense wasn't as strong as two of the other teams they saw in those final three rounds but still different kind of look there and the Celtics saw a million different defensive coverages against them all year and they always knew how to solve them and I think the quote that I look back on that Derek white said at one point was we have all the answers we just have to get to them and their ability to quickly get to them when other teams were adjusting huge credit to their growth especially Brandon tatums I think Joe Missoula hugely affirmed by this run because his game plan his philosophies worked and they worked methodically to just destroy the competition this year and they clearly had the best roster in the league but they took it to another level by winning the east by 15 games then just tearing to the playoffs the way they did again without porzingis which is so hard to Fathom if you said going into the playoffs that you weren't going to have him for Save three four games effectively where he's right it would have been tough to imagine them winning it all but they overcame pretty much anything that the league or the injury bug or whatever put in their way and then just that final moment the final week there where it hits them it hits us it hits everybody that they're actually doing this you know game five ended up being one of those like 2008 style Clincher blowouts which was cool cuz I didn't want to be watching obviously want watching it down the wire game yeah yeah it was amazing and it it was a long wait not Cleveland 2016 long but it was a good almost two decades that you had to wait for that and they did it at home the parade was out of this world I actually got to ride in the parade which was really cool and a story into itself but uh it was fun it was really cool to be a part of the locker room celebration was really cool to take into uh and then you know you go right into the summer and the Olympics and all that stuff that happened there but it was definitely a memorable run I think you know I'm I'm a little bit out of the fan mode at this point just haven't been in the media side of things for four or five years now but what sticks out to me is that all summer line the fans have just been reposting the moments you know whether it was like holiday Steel in the East finals or you know some of the things Tatum did Browns three against the Pacers and those have just been rolling non-stop throughout the summer so it was definitely a memorable team memorable run great personalities and for brown and Tatum we had a million conversations Justin about can they work together do you got to break them up or what do you do there and for them to be at the center of uh this thing and for Brown to be the MVP which I don't think many would have predicted going in either it was really cool well I you know it's so interesting that the Celtics team because you know as a longstanding Celtics hater I really should have seen this coming because you know it's like I almost let my hate blind me to what I was to what was happening because for the past like three years a big thing I've said on this podcast is that I think this league is much less about having two guys that are Uber Elite and instead much more about playing nobody who sucks like when you when you have no one in your rotation that is bad at basketball in in this modern League I think it matters more than having you know that a onea tier talent and you know and that's one of the reasons I think I was a little lower on Boston last off season was like you know they have six guys they really really trust and then what if pton Pritchard or Sam Hower doesn't work out you know what if Al gets old and can't hang anymore and one I mean the great work from the Celtics front office cuz all three of those guys were still great and and super helpful um but also they just had so many places that they could attack from you know I really you know I'm not Jason Tatum's biggest fan uh but like you know he doesn't he didn't have to be a 1A player every game to to win a title you know uh and they just had six or seven guys that kind of just were able to meet the moment on On Any Given possession let alone any given game I I feel like the the story of this Celtics team to me is the value of import of of of of collecting top end depth like when we talk about death we're talking about eighth ninth men like the the Celtics just had seven or eight guys who could give you an A minus game any given day yeah and it went both ways they could expose other teams weak points weak lengths and you could get into that in the Cleveland series a little bit guys who came out the bench who either weren't able to shoot and you expose them on the defensive end or you can go at offensively Garland and some others in that back court and the Celtics just did a great job exposing that every step of the way and Swinging It Forward is there that level of attention to detail the commitment to everybody to their roles I think those are all things that made them so dominant this year there was such a collective emphasis on winning the only guy on the team who' been through it and won is holiday and he's he's holiday he there's never any worry about him doing what he needs to do so everybody else had been in spots throughout their careers or reach points in their careers and everybody on the team talked about it this year they were willing to do whatever it took and that started at the top with Tatum who became a pretty selfless player dealt with his own struggles dealt with a lot of noise too and that continued into the summer which is pretty amazing to think about too it winning didn't quite affirm him but I think he internalized what he wanted to accomplish and came out of it feeling pretty great despite criticisms or his shooting percentage or whatever um people want to say about this run the way he celebrated like you just gotten picked apart throughout it but I'm sitting here and I know the whole Olympic thing happened too but to go back to your point about tatm Carter you're not biggest fan of him I've had my criticisms of him too I don't think he's the most consistent offensive threat sometimes I don't think the shots always there and he relies on it a little too much there's a million things you can say about him but he's dedicated himself to doing whatever it takes within the flow of a game and he's capable of doing anything within the flow of the game so when you have that at the top and then like you said Carter guys at the bottom of the roster who you can't expose you look at the finals Lucas trying to go at Hower Lucas trying to go at pritan those guys held up amazingly even Xavier Tillman when they had to go to him without porzingis was able to stand out there against Luka a little bit and you weren't devastated by those possessions and that was another thing that was super memorable about this team is everybody could guard everybody could at least not get exposed out there at the very least and it made them a pretty compelling defense as much of an as an offense yeah I mean they could just load up I mean I thought that you know I thought this was one of the most Styles make fights playoffs that I've ever seen uh and I just thought I you couldn't make a worse match up for Luca and Kyrie in a lab than that Celtics team you know I just think you know they are you know when you can load up the way the Celtics can load up without sacrificing your back end like and with the level of pressure they could put on ball it just felt unfair at times and like I I do think that that defense was pretty unbelievable and if I if I may since we have a Celtics fan on even though I'm not the biggest Tatum fan I feel like I The Narrative has swung so far that I feel like I got to defend the guy uh like the the Olympics thing really bothered me and what is it is is he boring is he not flashing I I don't get I think there's this degree of people there's the Kobe stuff which I think always puts up a red flag like the idolization of someone else and modeling your game after someone else there's always just a little bit of like I feel like people don't like that for some like certain people really don't like that there's the um there's the effort to kind of escalate him as the best player on a marquee team um but but you know throw all that aside I thought the Olympic stuff was just really nasty um and really off-putting to me uh because this is the most talented team maybe ever assembled in the history of the sport you only have 40 minutes a game um and like you know for what that team needed it just T him like I felt like I could I could could watch that team I could watch Tatum not get minutes and be pretty okay with it without thinking Tatum is some loser or like like deserving of derision and I can tell I'm being way too nice for Justin's taste because he's made nine faces but like I you elevated them over the 2017 Warriors you just did exactly what what like I was about to say Oh I thought be a listener be a listener Justin you're so eager to get off slander that you don't listen yep proceed and so anyway I just thought I just thought there was a there a shark was jumped with the Tatum stuff where I'm like I've seen like certain you know personalities on Twitter make 20 Json Tatum jokes and no tweets about enjoying watching the team play and it was like just felt very nasty to me too many people online just don't enjoy anything and you know Bobby it's funny how you mentioned like the discussions we had over the years of of Tatum and brown do do you keep them together do you break them up and I was always you know for for people that think I only do it for the Cavs like I I was a big advocate for continuity when it came to Boston as well and I I think some of the disconnect with Jason Tatum and I'd be curious to hear if you agree with this but like so frequently I think people you know we look at experiences and we look at things happening ahead of us and through the context of the past right through kind of how the history of the league what we've seen happen before and Tatum is really like the first time that we've seen that I can remember the best player of a championship team not really get elevated in like the eyes of the consensus right like usually like you know joic wins and he's the best player in the league Giannis wins he's the best player in the league right you had those conversations with Steph like it's always the case and Boston's a really interesting thing because even if you you know have Tatum just outside your top five or whatever the case may be like they won in a different way because it was such a well team not because of not not in spite they won with him right and you know embiid had that shot where like I think Tatum went like five to 25 or something like that and embiid said well if I shot that bad we would have lost by 20 and usually that's the case with a lot of stars but if you don't have that Bonafide like top five noou in the argument for best player in the league type talent you have to put as much insulation and as much talent around them and really it's a credit to the Celtics team building but I think people because so much of the conversation when it comes to basketball gets reduced to you know Michael Jordan LeBron James Steph Curry like we're only going to give credit to one player for winning a championship here I think the new reality where there's just so much talent in the league and it's the best team construction and as Carter said Styles makes fights that like cognitive dissonance here is causing people to like almost push back and be like well no Tatum wasn't even the MVP in the East finals or the NBA Finals like why are are we giving him this kind of credit it's but in reality like when you're building in a different way the way you build is have as much All-Star Talent as possible and insulate so that you know when you have a star like even a Paul George that isn't going to you know give you a consistent 35 points per game like a LeBron level Talent um like you need to have other guys that are there to pick up the SL and Boston did a really good job building a team that way you know who should be elevated on the back end of this though is Jaylen Brown Jaylen Brown I felt like he I feel like he was considered like a tier three tier four guy and I feel like he's right up there with Tatum at this point like I I just I don't know if I've ever seen a player I mean if if you're a Cavs fan rooting for Evan Mo's you know progression or uh or Darius Garland's progression like talk about a player that like feels like the dream outcome I don't know if I've ever seen a player get better in such a linear fashion as Jaylen Brown where like just every year he's been 10% better at basketball and 10% better at every skill and then all of a sudden he shows up to the playoffs and he's just murdering teams like I feel like he he earned more validation than any other Celtic do you agree with that yeah especially given what he dealt with last off season coming off the eight turnover game s and the biggest contract TR ever he dealt with a more extreme version of what Tatum's dealing with now and you wondered whether that was going to spell the end of his time with the team if they didn't want to give him a contract or at least just set him on a more uneven path into the future and that was his big weakness was the ball handling and the turnovers and it's still not perfect but he cut it way down moved into a more I think to the point role where he's just catching shooting finishing around the rim playing ahead I think he's one of the best or uh most possessions had the most possessions among players per game in transition so he lived on the move and really I thought set tones for Pace defense his defense was so much better this year so much more focused so he came into this year with a pretty good idea of where he needed to impact and again committed to that role didn't have the ball as much didn't shoot as much as the year before didn't make all NBA uh but still became a super impactful player and after getting snubbed in different spots throughout his career or overlooked maybe ends up winning Finals MVP which I I still go back and forth on the stats probably pointed toward him being MVP and the vote was pretty decisive I think it was like seven to four but I would have voted Tatum just because the Mavs were loading up on him they were forcing him to pass everything was flowing out of Tatum the pressure they were showing Tatum he had 11 assists in the clinch so I know he didn't shoot great throughout the series but it could have gone either way I don't knock Brown winning it I think he set a tone and had a I think the decisive shot in game three which is what made it three nothing so it was a tough vote I would have went Tatum after his game five um but they went Brown and it might be a curry situation that where Tatum has to get his Finals MVP before anyone respects it maybe and and you know Tatum going off in game five I think because that game wasn't as close as that made it tougher right like brown was better in the games that were more tightly contested and I think sometimes that holds a greater weight but you know J Brown really was kind of that perfect companion for Jason Tatum and we know all about perfect companions on this podcast only you can do your best work Zoom AI companion can help you do the rest like automatically taking notes answering meeting questions and helping you respond to your co-worker available at no cost with eligible paid plans work happy with zoom AI companion new zom baby let's go I I want to take it back though to kind of that Cav series because I I found it really interesting you know you look at the metrics from that series compared to the NBA finals and Cleveland had a better offensive and defensive rating than the the Mavericks did uh even in those games without Mitchell and Allen uh the Cavs managed to maintain the same offensive rating which is surprising as hell but you know it it's obviously frustrating uh I I think we saw some of what could have made that a really good series if both teams were healthy obviously you know Donovan was playing through the knee issue uh Moy the high ankle Garland was still working his way back from injury um but I I did think that you know there were interesting components of that like you mentioned how the Cav defense was able to challenge them you wouldn't think that uh when you know Jared Allen's out and the the two smaller guards for for Boston to kind of pick at on on the defensive end of the floor but the defensive rating held up with both guards even with just Evan Mobley uh they outscored Boston in those minutes with Garland Mitchell and Mobley uh what did you kind of learn from the the cavy in that matchup and do you think that this could be you know a series of challenges Boston down the road for sure because when you take the pain away from Boston which Cavs did effectively there I think it challenges the Celtics shooting variants a little bit more and they have to shoot well to be able to win a series like that and they're capable of it I mean they finished the series 37 from three and you get the 43 from Brown you get 39 from White holiday was pretty good especially toward the later end of that series and pitard hit some threes in that series too so I think that's probably where you want to lean against Boston I mean the Pacers try to do the opposite and I think they can take the rim with relative ease if you're going to give it to them and that's what got Tatum going in that series but the Cavs made Tatum uncomfortable I think they they obviously came out won game one of that series and set a tone from the start and if Mitchell's healthy I think it's more likely to go won six maybe seven game game two yeah so they get one in Boston then Mitchell goes down in the Cleveland side and It's just tough from that point on because I think almost got game four I I will complain about the free throws in game four until the day I die but we almost C game four that would have felt great that you know that was the closest any team came to to forcing you know a six-game series against Austin yeah did you leave did you leave the series being like feeling differently about the Cavs than you came in and cuz I know compared to the national uh you know narrative you tend to I feel like skew more Pro Cavs I remember before the series you were talking on Twitter about like hey guys don't like a lot of things Cavs do could give us a hard time be careful and so like even coming from that perspective did your opinions change on any individual Cavaliers or the Cavaliers on the whole not the Cavs on the whole because I think about them was a pretty good read yeah so Mitchell was the best player they saw along the way or the most dangerous player to them I think he hurt them the most of any player they saw along the way and obviously some guys were missing nart would actually probably be number two which is funny nart was nut so you look at him he's obviously able to beat the way the Celtics play defense but the guy who impressed me and changed my thinking on him a little a little bit because I felt like you need to have a great series and he did was Moy who started slow again had the issues with Horford going into it and then figured it out as it went along tricky part there is I felt like the Celtics led him in the shooting Aton to try to get the three-point advantage and that's still going to be the difficulty for the Cav so I felt like early in the series did a great job matching Boston's three-point um volume but as the series went on and I thought it was a great credit to Missoula they started playing a defense that was a little more oriented toward putting the ball in Mo's hands and forcing him to beat them and he did and he did a great job with it and it made some games close down the stretch there so he showed that he's able to put points up if he's forced to shoot and he obviously was with some of the guys that were missing and Garland going through some struggles and the way the Celtics were playing defense so that was a key step for him because I wasn't sure going in and I'm still not a th% sure is he going to be an all NBA level guy that you can build your team around or is he this great defensive player who isn't the best offensive player in in his position or in the league and right now I know you're still searching for that Wing you're playing double big you're recommitting to that by keeping those two guys so the tough part for Cleveland is that three positions right now you're not looking at much three-point shooting there and when you go against a Boston team that's five out and built on volume three-point shooting and everybody can shoot out there at all times that's tough and they did a good job matching it their own way stylistically uh but the math caught up to them and that was the story of Boston season is they just analytically had a game plan that was better than everybody else is along with their talent yeah and I think you know when it comes to moy that's going to be the biggest question for this season right like I I don't think you can win with a smaller back court being your primary offensive engine unless you have that front Court play initiator right and Evan Moy needs to step up and he needs to be that guy for them uh when it comes to the three-point shooting I think that's one of the things were're really keeping an eye on uh Cavs were eighth last year in attempts um obviously you know as you you have the the two big lineup really what you're hoping for with that starting unit is Garland Mitchell and streu are hitting from three because all three of those guys can be high volume three-point Shooters and are very good three-point Shooters but you need them healthy and producing at that level which they didn't have uh you know down down the stretch and then you know from the rest of the standpoint like the I think after November they were getting up about 38 threes a game which is a great rate uh but you are hoping for some positive regression there right like obviously Garland was going through what he was going through Mitchell took a step back streu was about where he was at with Miami but they they had quite a few shooters that had down shooting ears and I think the hope is you know with a little more structure on the offensive end you're going to get some positive regression on that end and that's going to help eliminate some of that Gap but um um I I I I I think your assessment of Moy is fair you know I I think even though he had a strong Series against Boston It's Still Remains to be seen if he can take that leap I think it's worth noting that Chris STS porzingis was out for that Series right like that's a lot of Rim protection that that's kind of missing there Horford had given that man uh some fits earlier in his career it felt like a boogeyman was slain just a little bit yeah yeah and you know you you compare that to the Nick Series where there were times where you know as much as Mitchell Robinson was dropping back he wasn't impacting the shot and Moy was just flat out not taking the shot so I think it was a major kind of step forward in terms of assertiveness and I'm interested to see how he grows uh from that but I I do think that the fact that you know the Cav's defense held up like they had a good defensive performance against the Celtics despite you know some of the issues with with personnel and injuries and all that like to me that's encouraging like I I feel so often people talk about adding a big wing for the C for defensive reasons where they're like you know like they have no one go up against like the Tams and Browns and all that and I always say well they haven't had an issue defensively in the playoffs they didn't against the Knicks they didn't against the Celtics they didn't against the magic they defend these teams well in the regular season I like when I talk about adding a big Wing as much as I'd like to have a bigger Wing out there to throw at a Jason Tatum part of it is we always say big playmaking Wing you need those kind of front cord Playmakers with length to help make life easier for the guards and uh I I just feel like so often the conversations when when it comes to like we got to break up the two guards and whatnot uh come down to defensive explanations when in reality the defense has held up with those two guards it holds up at an elite level with one big it holds up with two bigs it holds up in the regular season it holds up in the playoffs getting the offense on track has been the whole thing when it comes to the Cavs in the playoffs yeah and I'm going to point out a guy who might not solve all these issues but I think has a good chance to help them out a ton with them and it's the draft pick I I think the draft pick Jaylen Tyson was outstanding we are very big Jaylen Tyson so just yeah just just keep keep going yeah keep going don't go away be like Vince McMahon in that in that gift falling out of his chair I couldn't wait to talk about him yeah I got so hot and bothered he's a guy I wanted it it would have been a reach picking at 30 but he's definitely a guy I looked at among many wings and perimeter players that the Celtics maybe could have gotten in on but Cleveland takes them Midway through the round and I think he's the perfect player for them does he have a Bonafide three-point shot no I feel like it's going in the right direction based on his college trajectory but he is a guy who's comfortable with the ball in his hands and plays well off ball I feel like so if you can add him into this dynamic in the back court there and I feel like Kenny Atkinson C certainly will if he goes to some smaller lineups he's he has such a flexible offensive game and he's a good Defender he's super athletic and I I met him at Summer League briefly I have a friend who worked with him through some of his training sessions out there in Vegas and he just seemed like an average guy like I wouldn't even know when he was an NBA player just interacting with him he was just a super laidback and we St a hum King yeah so I love I'm I'm as high on him as any rookie in this class I feel like he could legitimately be especially with the opportunities he might get on this Cleveland team given the need they have at wing and I guess okoro might be on the way out here based on some of the reporting I'm seeing but he has an opportunity to potentially start for this team if he hits a stride enough early and so can does he shoot does he bring some secondary ball handling and can he defend as you mentioned you need to defend every position out there and have guys who can survive playoff minutes it's asking lot of a rookie but when you don't have any money to spend when you don't have major trade assets to go get a Bonafide Wing which is probably the toughest position to get in the league got to get lucky in the draft and if you got lucky with him he's not gonna be a star but if he could be a star in his role you talk about the Derek whites and Drew holidays of the world that could change this team this year and the coaching is going to be a big thing too here I don't know how Kenny ainson is goingon to run this team compared to how JB bicker staff did uh but getting a wing who I think has a chance to impact minutes this year that was big especially with where they were picking from I think they really hit that pick out of the park yeah and a draft that didn't really have a ton to love you know it wasn't a great draft so the fact that they landed a guy like that and you're right I do think like his highest upside is exactly what the team needs and like is it likely he hits that upside based on his draft slot and you know in the strength of the draft he was in maybe not but the fact that it's there is so exciting and then summer Le gave you no reason not to think it couldn't he couldn't get there monstrous performances out there yeah and uh and you know ultimately uh you know I think that he can he just is so different from the rest of their team you know he's this big strong hyper physical player he's a great rebounder at the on the wing like the Cavs have not had great rebounders at the guard or Wing position in in a couple years so the fact that you know he's able to do all these things he just solved to your point Bobby solves a lot of problems for them um something I wanted to ask you about was you know so if Story one of the Celtics season to me was get topend playable depth I think story two is choosing whether or not to blow it up or to consolidate or to change it up you know and something in this new CBA environment where you know these top teams are going to start getting penalized harder than they've ever been penalized for these crazy uh for being over that second apron and the Cavs are you know not anywhere near that even after a round of extensions this offseason I think the value of hanging around is higher than it's ever been how where as as as an outside Observer where do you land on kind of the Cavs long-term future do you think that you know how how do you think they should decide more than anything whether they should hang on I look at Boston they they had a thousand to trade Dylan Brown they had a thousand opportunities to trade Jason Tatum and they didn't they just held firm and they stayed good every year like where where where do you land on that uh in terms of how the Cavs could should build their roster and what indicators they should take to to make a call one way or the other you keep the most Talent possible and I think it made sense for them to keep everything together this summer if there weren't upgrades via moving some of those players and I don't know what would have been possible Garland to the Spurs I don't know how much you're getting back from San Antonio at least in near-term Assets in a situation like that and Allan what kind of Market is in there for an expensive center around the league I don't know so I think it made sense to keep the whole group together but I don't think it's going to be their choice and fortunately everybody remained amicable enough here among the players to say that includes Garland and Mitchell and Allen staying alongside Mobi there I feel like any of these guys if they made a big enough stink could probably push their way out Mitchell certainly this summer had every ability to do so and they all remain patient which I think is important now I didn't love the coach firing I like JB I liked what he built here I like the defensive approach he took and M it just might be I'm more of a defensive guy than an offensive guy it comes to coaching and he was an exceptional defensive coach and I felt the same way about going from eay to Joe and Joe's offensive Innovations and his ability to spearhead improvements for players that had some offensive stagnancy really moved the team forward and so even though I'm a defensive guy I see where the League's going I see that some of the more defensive oriented teams end up behind the teams that are innovating offensively and I think that's probably where Cleveland was so to bring in an Atkinson that makes sense to me you could have done much worse there and Atkinson had many opportunities to go coach other teams and pass them up so for him to take this one I think says a lot I you know just listening to him talk in his introductory press conference it seems like he has a pretty good idea of how he wants this team to play I'm interested in seeing how it plays out is he going to have moob shooting threes more regularly is he G to be playing some smaller lineups here I think that's all going to be interesting to watch but I love the job he did in Brooklyn with a much worse roster they were super competitive super analytical I think competed above their weight because of that uh how do he work with the Personalities in the room here and all that I think that's another question but in terms of the basketball I think I think he's a great fit uh so you keep this together you see how it goes this year and it's going to be a year-by-year thing with this team if they're still stuck in the first and second round I think it's going to be tougher to convince every one of the big four to stay year in and year out and obviously mob's going to be the long-term core piece that stays here more likely than not H but I love that they're getting another run at it because as Justin talked about all year long and you two Carter you didn't see it last year everybody was hurt they didn't play enough together and sometimes that's the last word and you just never get an answer on what it's going to be but for them to get a second chance that's huge yeah and like I I agree with the approach of you know especially in this new CBA and whatnot and the parody that that's there throughout the league I think you got to just kind of hang around right and wait for your opportunities those opportunities may come in the form of injuries those opportunities may come in the form of a trade market right like there there may be a chance in in the next two years here where you know an All-Star Talent becomes available and the Cavs move on from some of their core pieces but when you're trying to build a championship Contender and you don't have that you know best player in the world caliber guy uh that's in that conversation you don't bridge that Gap just like you don't Bridge it from the Celtics standpoint by turning All-Star Talent into role players right like you oh yeah you you might change uh some of that All-Star Talent out and you know find a better fit for you know a compar terrible talent but when you talk about you know like those Spurs deals for Garland like yeah they got a bunch of 65 wings that that are role players in some draft picks in a knock great draft like that's not moving the needle um yeah and then those stars go elsewhere and they blossom and you're like oh gee yeah that that did that didn't look good that didn't feel good right like you if you look historically like as much I I think people sometimes over index on how do you win with two small guards or how do you win with two bigs when like the conversation we should be having is how do you win a championship without you know that best player in the world type caliber Guy and um you know Donovan Mitchell is certainly capable of being the best player in any individual series just like Jason Tatum is but when you look at like the example kind of set by the Celtics you want to have a lot of kind of All-Star Talent around those guys so that those guys can step up they can pick up the slack right they can take advantage of these opportunities and I think historically when you look at at like the Pistons team uh that one both of them uh right like it it's having a variety of Allstars and when you look at historically how teams without a LeBron James go out and win a championship it's maximizing the All-Star talent you have and as Carter said earlier surrounding them with rotation guys that you don't worry about being on the court uh in those kind of Playoff scenarios or at least if someone's having a tough series having the depth to go away from them and you know pivot to other players within the rotation so so do you feel like they're in a better spot this year or are they in pretty much the same I I think they're in a better spot only because like you know there there's going to be internal growth right like I I think you know last year was the first season where Darius didn't take a step forward right and I think that was largely to do with injuries yeah I think it was largely to do with injuries I think his 22 23 season alongside Mitchell was the best in of his career I think Mo is going to keep getting better and then you know you you look at some of the kind of moves around the margins like the the fact that Tai Jerome like we love that addition coming into the summer you know getting a 65 point guard that that defends never turns the ball over and shoots well from three well we got a game and a half out of him right back this year yeah he's you know he's under contract he's back in the mix Jaylen Tyson that's another body that you can have back in the mix I think from a two-way perspective like having a Luke Travers you know as Carter said a a six we're back to him we're back to Luke Travers baby but like you know just looking at kind of the the two-way spots like I I think there's more of a chance that some of these guys can contribute like if if the Thor you know reporting ends up coming true that's a guy that played a lot of NBA games that that took a step forward as a shooter that you know uh 610 611 with a massive wingspan that can shoot in as a great athlete like that they're more likely to be able to fill in the gaps if you need an option at the four which I think backup four has been kind of that area that we we've had our eye on especially if you're going to stagger The Bigs the fact that you have just more bodies to to throw at that position I I think is really beneficial and then of course Jaylen Tyson who I like to call jameh hakz with a three ball right like I I think you know if he can give that kind of impact there I I think that that's going to make a big difference and going back to what you said about Kenny like when we talked to our friends that that cover the Warriors T them saying how much you know his defensive philosophy helped the Warriors win that Championship a couple years ago uh to go along with you know the the the offensive Acumen that he has you hope that at least the defense can hold up but I don't think you can necessarily take that for granted but at least there's those positive signs there yeah I think what I would say to that to answer that question of are they in a better spot than they were is we're going to find out very quickly what the future of the franchise needs to be would be my argument uh because if they're not better out of the gate then we'll kind of know that the current you know form of the team maybe has run its course you know I I think that's really what you need is you you basically have a a a year of bad data last year where it's just hard to pull much out of it you know like something like the thing I I was obsessed with all year and I really never got to see it was the Cavs never found their A++ lineup they never found out found their knockout punch lineup you know the starters weren't bad together but they weren't like plus 13 at per 100 better than everyone else um you know they never they never like hit they never found their that that killer mode and a lot of this you know it's not like they had a bad season but they had a worse season than the year before with worse personnel and a worse fit so it's like either something kind of you know something broke the league figured them out yeah either something broke they got figured out to some extent or you know the Alchemy isn't quite right like we'll know if you know if we have another year where the team just isn't as good at hit isn't hitting the heights that we thought they would hit because again by pretty much every metric the Cavs were a better regular season two years ago with you know Isaac okoro and Jetty Osman and all these other these other Wings playing heavy minutes with you know a team that ended up being so uh so starved for depth in shooting that they were playing a one-legged Danny Green heavy minutes in the first round against the Knicks so it's like when I look up and down the roster I see way more Talent way more pedigree way more fit for the things the team needs and they were worse so either something ain't right or they were just hurt or a little bit of both so I think they kind of a little bit of both so I think they're kind of hedging their bets on both sides like they didn't they have more you know if if Isaac okoro ends up signing that qualifying offer they will have literally the top like 11 guys in their rotation back which like never happens in this league unless you win a title like it it would be a frankly unprecedented level of run it back um but they so so that tells me hey we believe we believe in our roster but then they did change the coaching staff which is to say but we still think the Vibes weren't quite what we wanted them to be so I think I think they're kind of playing in the middle just a little bit unfortunately for them the Celtics are running back 13 players from the chionship team so well you won the title so when you win the title you get to run back whatever you want yeah right yeah and that was my question for you guys with Boston because I'm torn as you look ahead to where they're going to be going in the next year because you win the championship everything's great there's nothing a question but there is stuff at play here when you look at do they rest on their Laurels is there Championship hangover is there fatigue Factor but also porzingis potentially missing half this season I think it's something that hasn't been talked about enough we're probably not seeing him until like 25 right 30 40 games yeah yeah so they're gonna go slow with that you probably can't run Horford into the ground in place of him so it does create a question at the five the team's depth and their ability to withstand injuries was really good last year so I don't want to overreact too much to it but I think it's a thing and I think Championship hangover is a thing too so I I wonder what version of the Celtics we're going to see going in this year because as much as they answered all the questions last year and achieved the goal I don't think the bad version of this team is completely out of sight yet I think some of the flaws especially with the two stars always going to be there to some degree it's just how much they can mask it yeah I mean the fun thing about doing these previews right like in the past you know I I've I've probably been higher on Boston sometimes than you right like I'm almost like pumping you up and giving those talks now I'm I'm looking for Flaws in everyone because I I truly like this is the first year where you know even if it's like a 5% chance like I do think the Cavs have a punch chance of winning a championship this year right like if everything clicks and they get their breaks I think you know this is this is the year you know we went playing we went first round we went second round if you make a Conference Finals which honestly I think if they landed on the other side of the bracket uh with with like Indie and all them like I think they would have made a Conference Finals so how would an inseason Championship feel you know I'm I'm here for those brother I'm here for those too but you know like I I think there there is that outside chance so of course you look at every team kind of through the lens of okay what can go wrong and you know you mentioned porzingis being out till 25 uh Drew holiday was talking about retirement before he went to Boston and he got his championship is he going to be his motivator right and you talk about you know just Championship fatigue and Olympic fatigue uh lobed on top of that right where you know they didn't really have a whole lot of an offseason and you saw the impact that that had on Boston uh Jaylen Brown not congratulating his teammates when they they won their medals uh and and being left off that team does some of that and kind of like you know the the old Bill Simmons disease Amore uh that that he or not I know Bill Simmons I know it's Riley but Simmons always references it so that's where my mind is here when we're talking we have a Boston guy in the Pod but my God yeah I know I know they also lost and it's not always something people think about but they lost an outstanding assistant coach in Charles Lee too which is which is something he part of two're hoping the Knicks are way worse after we ganked their offensive assistant yeah like so you kind of have all those factors and yeah you can make a lot of kind of All-Star Talent work when everyone's sacrificing but does that same level sacrifice be there uh after you've kind of achieved your goal of winning a championship so it's going to be really interesting to to see with Boston I'd still you know put them as the favorite in these I still kind of have them like a half tier Above the Rest but I I want to get your rankings I I want to hear in terms of your confidence and their ability to make an NBA Finals obviously Boston's going to be number one or at least I would sure hope so like if it's not you got to be more of a homer and that's coming and that's coming from a pro Homer right here uh give me your East rankings here give me your top eight yeah it's tough right now obviously I think the Knicks or the hot pick is the number two and I'm looking at from a perspective of who can challenge Boston the most more than what the standings are going to be because like you said just Boston should be considered yeah the one and then it's everybody else doesn't really matter where they slide in it's more who's going to challenge Boston and I do think you put Cleveland in a pretty good class in terms of being a top four team in the East that can challenge them now where does that leave them two to five I'd still probably put them more in that four or five range right now than three or four put numbers to it put numbers to it you're you're giv too much explanations I want rankings the people want rankings that's what this time of year is but you got to rank them in the tears I am going to put them five because I it's tough because I think Philly is the big swing team there and I would put Philly four among these teams right now and that would be an interesting series if it came to it so that's bucks three I'm going bucks two I do think this is gonna be a Giannis Revenge year I respect him so much he's been hurt the last two postseasons things got so weird there and I still don't feel great about the whole dock thing but I think Giannis alone focused aggressive healthier cast around him two underrated moves too uh a couple underrated moves with Trent coming in and you know they got a backup point guard and I thought their draft picks were interesting two young guys but some guys that could potentially bring some shooting and some other stuff to them so I think more stability there healthy Hest doc having a full off season and a more robust staff I'm sure I think things would just be a little bit more steady there and again I'm looking at this in terms of who can threaten Boston the most even with everything that went on last year and schedule porkiness went into it too but the Bucks destroyed the Celtics twice on their home court and probably were one of the top five most challenging teams during the regular season Boston win against to play so I'll always respect them middlton had two surgeries this summer I don't know what direction his game's pointing in and Lillard you know the defense is always going to be something have to worry about there but I'm going to put them two I'm going to put New York 3 I think they're for real Do's a fatigue injury thing with them two under tibs that I'm a little concerned about you saw they broke down last year but there's some flexibility on the wing now bringing in bridges that was an outstanding trade and again built to beat Boston multiple Defenders you can throw at the wings Brunson can you repeat what he did last year that's going to be a tall task and I think it's an important one for them and I think they lost a ton in hardenstein I I thought that was an underrated I think think that's I actually don't think they're built to be Boston I think Boston is better equipped CU I I think anyone who has only one way to attack which I think Brunson is the one way to really attack Boston uh I think they're they're so well suited to make that person's life hell yeah and the Celtics P I think they played them five times last year beat them pretty handily in the first four but the last one with OG and I know the Celtics had clinched already at that point but the Knicks destroyed them in Boston late in the with OG so I'm interested to see those match ups a little more randle's another wild card too I I I I respect his game he's a borderline all NBA guy at his best but in terms of the direction they're going in I'm not sure if he's a great fit for what they were doing last year not that they were better without him or anything like that but they found a style without him that I thought was effective and I don't know how he's going to fit back into that and can rob Robinson's effectively the only Center can he stay healthy that's that's a concern so they could slide that's an opportunity Billy again if embiid's healthy they could be two but if he's not healthy they slide down in like playing level as you saw last year so that's that's another really tough one to gauge I guess I just split the difference and put them at four but the Cavs to me are still in the middle of that conference pretty you know stuck in like that Miami Philly class there um New York like I think they're rung below I take I take exception to Miami being in that yeah why why why why are you putting Miami in there they everyone's got so much Scar Tissue with them yeah yeah and I do we we were helping Andrew claudo from uh Nicks film school last week get over his Miami trauma like they've gone worse every year you know just because they they beat some teams with injuries in the past you know what are we doing here you're right Indiana Define your tier Define your tier because I'm I'm I'm already a little hurt about being number five but do you have kind of that two through five as being within the same tier or did I hear a little bit bit of a separation where you had Milwaukee above them yeah I do think I have Milwaukee in a second class if they're able to reach their potential kind of a tier of their own yeah because the Celtics are in a tier of their own too at the top so it could be like a first tier Boston a second tier of Milwaukee and then a third tier of New York Philly Cleveland which I think makes sense because even though the Pacers made these finals I'd probably put them more in that Miami class in like the I got them seven and then you get into your teams that were mediocre before and I think are probably trending in the wrong direction so the East could legitimately be worse this year I look at the Hornets as a team that could sneak into that play territory very easily if the big Mark Williams and Brandon Miller guy over here yeah and the Pistons stink the Nets are tanking the Bulls are tanking um the Magics I think they think they're not uh the magic are another team you do have to mention there but I was a little disappointed they flatlined offensively so badly in that Cleveland series and defenses man I I got a gripe I got a gripe how come everyone you know I I think was it wolves and uh I forget what that series was in the west but it was awful the scores were just as low as Cav magic and everyone's like oh this is great defensive basketball this is the way playoff basketball should be and then the Cavs and magic did the exact same thing and everyone's like this is unwatchable scores below 100 I put it on ESPN I can't handle this not that that was real flirting versus harassment and I took note of it that that's some West Coast elitism there yeah it was it was definitely a rock fight I would say two great defenses going at it that's what that was all right yeah I know and and it went the distance and I think Orlando you get a kcp and I think the kind of move that can make you uh take a leap but their offense was very sporadic last year so I think that's going to be a challenge in terms of the standings here they're they're probably in that Miami Indie tier and then you put everybody else below that so yeah six 678 would be like Miami indie or uh Orlando Indie Miami I got I got Miami 8 until they actually make a move I have a question much this is going to be decided by injuries and stuff too I mean wasn't C uh orando up to like three or four at one point they even had a chance to get two on the last day of the season so everyone did everybody did end I did want to ask you one last question because it kind of came up with uh with Andrew on our last pod and I just want to ask you how many teams do you think could earn the one seed this season in the East three I think Milwaukee could I think Philly could at full health but it's probably going to be Boston again just just because they were so dominant down guys last year now keep going see I I actually think it's a huge range I think six teams could I think six teams could do it uh I just don't I don't think six teams could win the East but I think getting the one seed I think it's going to be I think we're actually especially with Zinger missing half the year um I think but they went like 31 and six without him it was crazy yeah but I mean everyone else in the East was dead you guys were the only everyone was dead and Al is 38 now I mean he's old old so that's the big thing right I looked last year when porzingis was out Al played 30 minutes a game they'll obviously be back toback for he's not playing at all so he won have both of them but on the nights he does play he's probably closer to 25 at this point than 30 a game with porzingis out so it's great you get Tilman back I think that's a big help if he's healthy if he's I could believe how young he was at the minimum yeah so that was huge I didn't expect that I thought he was gone he keep cornette at the minimum kayada I'm really excited about kayada with the full off season because he got to Boston pretty late last year after the Kings cut him and he still had a pretty good year uh in NBA action he wasn't even in the G League he was playing like 50 games on the two-way for them so they have guys there that played well last year they need to repeat that they lost their four you guys mentioned backup four and sh or he's still out there but it doesn't seem like he's going to be back so that's a little something they're going to have to figure out in that mix too there but um it's it's staggering because porzingis he'd miss a game here or there he had the extended stretch in the playoffs but everybody's playing 40 minutes a game in the playoffs so you don't feel that as much when you're trying to manage minutes during the regular season when you're coming off that Championship run and guys aren't playing 30 40 minutes every night in the regular season that's where it becomes tougher to overcome a guy just being out for 30 40 games like he's going to be here so it's a factor I think it's going to be a bigger Factor than people think and it's definitely an opportunity for some other teams in the East along with if there is a hangover to jump at but sometimes coming off the championship you go on a burst too like the Celtics coming off 08 went like 27 and three to start the next year or something like that so and you also got the whole thing that you know they haven't been elevated in the eyes of people right like you motivation yeah you have that motivation coming off you know all all kind of the slander of the offseason I can definitely see that you know kind of burning them forward uh so that's a good thing right fans were pissed about all that and defending T you guys are always pissed though Boston fans are always unhappy like you guys you'll you'll put on the cross you guys will will act like you you have such tough luck as sports fans it's you're always pissed but you're always making red socks and Patriots right now come on oh sorry you got to go through a little rebuild I mean I don't know what's going on with the Red Sox I don't pay attention to baseball but come on you got just got Drake Drake May a beauty you you'll you'll be fine in a couple years I hope so well thank you so much speaking of beauties thank you Bobby for coming on once again I I know you got a fantasy draft coming up speaking of Drake may you know segue segue is out the Wazoo here I'm still in be picking him I'm sure someone will and stash him away because we're Boston guys in this league but uh I'm I'm trying to get like a Herbert a you know Allen one of those types I don't think I'm gonna have may on my team that's that that's perfectly Fair especially if this is a redraft league but thank you so much for coming on before we let you go let the people know what you got going on yeah same deal this year I'm back for a fifth season covering the Celtics for sness media which for bl by Bubble started yeah so we're back again Boston Sports journal every week and uh Celtics blog as well occasionally and we do a show after every Celtics game on CS media's YouTube page the Celtics postgame show the garden report and we'll have plenty of shows leaning up to the season I think I might bounce around to some of the teams around the league and maybe we'll get one of you two on to talk some Cavs on our side uh so stay tuned for that I I you know I am never going to turn down an opportunity to sit in front of a mic so that that would definitely be appreciated we appreciate you coming on we appreciate everyone that's tuning in Live on YouTube make sure you guys like And subscribe click the notification Bell so you know when we're going live if you're listening via podcast and you want to support us leave us a rating leave a review subscribe unsubscribe resubscribe and help cook those books if you want to be part of chasetown exclusive Discord chat send a screenshot or review to chasetown poot gmail.com however you choose to support us we really do appreciate it make sure you guys are staying safe out there until next time go Cavs [Music] [Music]