Rich good morning I don't know that we have Andy yet we're trying to find him I think maybe the alarm clock didn't go off how are you rich Lowry good how are you I'm good thank you for getting up very early this morning we keep trying various numbers for Andy so he'll eventually join us uh you heard my setup uh rich and I'll play a little bit tape yesterday the very best dissection of that debate that I've heard came from the ruthless podcast Josh Holmes has negotiated these before I've done five of these debates with the big networks uh they were GOP Presidential primary debates four with CNN one with NBC I know how they're run I know how they're scripted I know how that the preparation goes on 30 to 50 people top brass mure and Davis don't Bear all of the waight for what happened but what I heard I listen to the McCarthy report everyone should I I have not listened to the editor's emergency podcast yet I will today your assessment uh I I know that Trump could have done better he ought have prepared more all that stuff what was your assessment of ABC's role I it doesn't look any better in in retrospect it's it's horrible you know and I I've been looking back over the transcript kind of in The Cold Light of Day a couple days afterwards I don't think Trump's performance is any better I think Harris is actually worse if if you read it on the page but the moderators are just just awful one thing I I didn't notice in real time towards the end there was a bit of a fact check as kind of in between a fact check and a question to Harris after Trump had said you know she she was sent over there to negotiate prior to the Ukraine war and look what happened the war happened anyway and I think it was David M said oh oh so so you're saying she negotiated with with Putin uh you know Madam vice president have you ever met Vladimir Putin and that's not what he said he didn't say he she met with Vladimir Putin he says that she was sent over there which she was she met with zinski right before the The Invasion so again if you're going to fact check you shouldn't fact check at all because it's too hard to do in real time but if you're going to do it you got to be correct one and you can't do it just for for one side and that's what they did and I was talking to a friend who was at CNN prior to the CNN Trump Biden debate and a a big wig from CNN came came over and was chitchatting and said just watch you just watch after this debate CNN will not be the story I guarantee you CNN will not be the story clearly that was a directive from above you're just mod ators it's not about you you're not the candidate at the very least no one at ABC said that to these two and may have indeed said the out now Rich you have been working around the clock because you've done the editor's podcast you've done the uh the McCarthy report podcast you've been writing for National Review you have a job actually to be the editor-in chief of National Review and you're back on the East Coast for some National Review thing so you've been traveling all over the place as you've talked with people is this going to change opinions of the debate because the general review I as I've said to Marth McCall Larry cudow on the air upon further review the call on the field has been reversed by me my call on Tuesday night was well Trump lost the battle maybe he'll win the war uh because of the issues that he raised now I'm just thinking he may have won the debate because the the verdict is kind of a rolling verdict do you think that is happening I I think certainly among Republicans this is the first first thing they say is they talk about the moderation and I was talking to a friend about this yesterday and he says Rich you know we're still talking about Candy Crowley a relatively minor intervention was I shouldn't minor it was a pretty big intervention in that foreign policy debate between romni and and Obama and what else does anyone remember of that debate I mean this this will be remembered a very long time for Republicans it may be Hugh you know you've been involved in these negotiations and these debates after every bad one rep we're never going back to the the same mainstream model everyone that's kind of the point of view everyone has at the moment I'm not it's never stick before maybe it'll stick this time I kind of doubt it but that's that's the take among a a lot of Republicans I don't know whether that's enough to help Trump and the overall impression of who won this this debate because you also know how it works you know people say you lost and and you ask people over time and it's mag the defeat is magnified uh by hearing all the pundits and commentators say I'm not sure how much it it matters you know if you're still leading on the economy and the border and inflation not sure how it matters uh it matters very much but she clearly she cleared a kind of bar uh the other night uh she she did clear a bar uh the question is upon further review in fact let me play for you something I said to Larry cudow uh on Wednesday cut number 19 your take on any of this well I I want to say Kudos on your riff Larry because the oldest cliche in news is also true first reports are usually wrong and the first reports last night are that you know Trump lost ARS one over the course of the day I have been seeing three things emerge Trump was okay not his best but he did get in some hay makers his closing statement was best and anytime you're focusing on migration you're winning comma Harris by contrast what was at her best and it wasn't very good and then third and I think this matters a lot it was the worst presidential debate in modern history I do not believe even an independent or even a moderately Fair Democrat will conclude other than that was an ambush and as that settles in as people study what Alex just referred to the vice president did not answer one question nor did ABC which is owned by Disney asked one question about China not one question I was thinking of their theme parks they merchandising I thinking about the NBI talk about China not one question about Iran they did not bring up our hostage who was executed along with five others in Israel on the 107 I am so amazed with the unprofessionalism and the the deeply disrespectful of America as Katie mentioned performance by ABC I think by the weekend Trump may have won this it's a it's a it's a moving River of opinion that gathers force and at this point yeah I wanted more I wanted Perfection but that was the best of vice president's ever going to be she's not very good Rich you can't hurt my feelings am I wishcasting there or might that happen I'm not sure that's going to happen with the general public among Republicans this this is clearly this process is is ongoing and and began during the debate it was one of the top takeaways that anyone had it it just obvious to everyone where these moderators were coming from and they they weren't upholding their professional obligation to be neutral interlocutors and kind of ask the question and unless unless the question wasn't answered there need to be a followup to fade to fade back into the bush like the Homer Simpson meme but the follow-ups for K obviously weren't there the very first question are people better off than they were four years ago she didn't answer it she didn't even come close to answer answering she didn't even try to answer it and and she got on to terce by calling the the Trump tariffs you know attacks uh and and immediately Trump responded to that uh and unfortunately that sort of set the pace for what the whole night was like she was never challenged by the moderators and Trump didn't do enough to call her out or to call out the moderators in real time you know some of the most effective debate performances yes and the primary contest uh not in a general election have been calling out moderat nuk ingr in South Carolina famously against our friend Juan Williams so I think this is something that that would have helped Trump to call out in real time I heard you mention that and I when Andy joins us when we find him and he he confirmed to me last night he was going to join us but we might have his wrong number he might not have our number I'm going to stipulate that the former president ought to have called out the moderators the way that n did I believe you brought this up in 2012 n called out John King and it in fact began a new way of engaging with moderators did you mention that on on the mccarthur report yesterday was that you I I think it may may have been I may have said it Andy may have said it but that that was electric moment that won South Carolina for for new Kish um yeah but but Trump Trump trump didn't do it I've Got a Theory on why uh which I'll talk with you we're GNA talk during the breaks we're going to put it all on the podcast we're going to put it all on YouTube as well and I'm going to play part of it in hour two so I'm going to talk with Rich and we're still looking for Andrew C McCarthy maybe the alarm didn't go off and maybe we got the wrong number but we'll find him don't go anywhere Rich Lowry we'll be right back America on the H show I am back America and I'm joined by Rich Lowry and we have found Andrew C McCarthy but we got him by video which is very rare uh good morning Andy welcome I gather you have no sell service did you have have you moved to California and the fires took it out or something I'm uh I'm in a delightful place that's uh for a technological Neanderthal like me you I'm having a little trouble navigating it but we're here okay I I appreciate it I first want to stipulate you're the lawyer Richard's been talking with me about this debate I'm going to stipulate Donald Trump could have done better he could have prepared better he ought to have warmed up I loved your discussion on the McCarthy report yesterday about how you how you warm up for trials Glenn yunan on my show a former basketball player told me that before his debates with Terry McCulla he warmed up in a debate model before he went out so that you know like warming up before a game I'm going to stipulate to all of that Andy I'm going to give you just two or three minutes to un to unack what you think the moderators were doing uh there there's I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I have done five of these debates they're very scripted we did 12 rehearsals for the NBC debate in November NBC top brass was there there are 30 to 50 people in the room it's scripted every question is vetted so you don't embarrass yourself I ask my own questions but they're vetted by the NBC team with that background what do you think ABC's plan was well I don't think there's any question that they're they have their thumb on the scale for Harris I I was impressed you by the uh by that clip that you made or that Dwayne made that uh sort of strung along a number of the different uh interjections that they had throughout the evening but I still think that when you read the transcript C off a page rather than listen to it where I thought there was a lot in voice inflection and body language that confirmed the indication that they were in the tank for Harris to me the biggest thing that they did that was helpful to Harris was kind of be training wheels for her I think that they that they gave her a comfort level which is very important to someone who is not a terrific extemporaneous speaker and who was clearly going to be nervous in front I don't know what the the latest uh estimations are of the audience I think it it's somewhere in the neighborhood of over 60 million people but when you have it's over 70 million now it's over 70 million okay yeah all right well you have somebody who is not particularly good at this uh who is in a a almost Super Bowl level kind of audience um she's going to be nervous and I think they helped her get over the hump by making her comfortable that if she fell into trouble they were going to jump in and help her and in the meantime uh with Trump they were going to give him a hard time I would I wouldn't want to say they were going to give him a much harder time than they were going to give her because I really don't think they gave her a hard time at all they were kind of grateful to her for her answers and for being there whereas they fact checked him in real time so I think there's a lot there and I I say this as an old trial lawyer you know juries are always looking for body language and the reason that appell courts as you know don't reverse trial courts on matters of credibility is because the jury was there and they weren't and uh top level courts recognize that there's a lot to be said from body language and the way people act and the way they their demeanor and as they answer questions I think this was all very helpful in the way of a setting for Harris to ease into and then become stronger as the night went on I found that very persuasive I listened to McCarthy report yesterday when I was doing my trundling and I thought that's very persuasive because I've been talking to audience since I was 21 uh and I'm always a little nervous at the beginning even on a hit you know on obscure I'm always the voice warbles a little bit at the beginning then i' I've been doing this forever stay tuned we're coming right back on the network welcome back America I'm Hugh huitt Rich Lowry is the editor and chief of National Review Andy T Andrew C McCarthy is a former southern district of New York associate attorney us attorney and columnist author and frequent guest on my program these two are among the smartest most respected conservative influencers in America cuz they're Fair they're no drop dead trumpus they're not Maga people they're like me they've been in the conservative movement forever and Annie knows terrorism and Rich knows television and and conservatism and has written a great book on Lincoln the only guy that realizes that Lincoln kind of is a is more of a wig than people I loveed Rich's book on Lincoln I would recommend that and Andy's book on the blind Shake trial maybe one of the most important ones ever but here's something I said to Martha McCollum that rich is not going to understand because he's too young and I think maybe Andy will uh let's play Cut number I know you and I are the same cut number 17 Martha McCollum yesterday um Hugh your reaction to what the president has had to say just now I am not surprised Marth and thank you for having me on I think he knows that he is in the process of winning the debate on Tuesday night and I want to explain that uh NFL fans are familiar with the phrase upon further review the officials have reversed the call on the field due to overwhelming evidence well upon further review the American public has decided that debate was rigged it was absolutely in the tank by ABC and Disney to hurt the former president and to help conell Harris and the way I explained this to people and it doesn't need much for Juan and I we're of this age but if you're over if you're under 62 it won't necessarily make sense in 1972 the Soviets won the gold medal against the American basketball team in the Olympics but that's only because the officials and the referees insisted that they win Doug Collins Jim Brewer they can tell you the whole story but it was riged and when you go back and look at the deep deep bias that manifested itself it was as though law fair had become media fair and that dizy right there Rich Lowry do you have any idea what the 1972 basketball game was about oh I I do I do I I I did not watch it but I'm aware of this travesty of of Justice Q so it's it's a great Sports analogy Andy do you remember watching it yeah I I'm not surprised that you decided tond I'm not surprised that you you decided that the Trump's best offense would be Bobby Knight there's something about that that I think makes perfect sense well well they they replayed the ending three times then the scorers got involved and the appeals to the to the ioc was denied 3-2 because the East block voted against the the people said that was a scrub it was rigged at the end and poor Doug Collins almost got killed I think it was that bad now Rich we've all stipulated Donald Trump should have done better should have gone after the moderators and he's not doing any more debate does it matter in the end for the election could matter a little bit you know it's as close as a cliche go as anything could could matter I I doubt it's decid um you know I I think she she might get a little you know one or two point jump bump from this and it may kind of I would guess kind of Fades Fades uh Fades away um but Trump needs to you know continue to prosecute the case against her much more aggressively than he did on that or effectively than he did on that debate stage and and not to beat a dead dead horse Vi about Trump's preparation but the closing statement was clearly something he thought about right um uh it was something that was leas in his head if he if he hadn't rehearsed or someone hadn't told him those lines I just don't know why I didn't have four or five of the closing statement like statements on each of the major uh issues and I think he would have been in much much better shape I just doubt the debate is going to matter that much I don't think he's going to win the debate in retrospect I just don't think the debate is going to matter much he didn't win the debates at least according to the post post- debate polling any any of the debates in 2016 he had a catastrophic debate first debate in in 2020 of course wins in 20 in6 16 it comes very close in 2020 so Andrew McCarthy what will it matter we got about a minute to the break we'll talk during the break we have another segment after the break so we got plenty of time but do you think it will matter Andy yeah I think I'm more convinced than rich I think is that it that it'll matter and it's only because I think kamla Harris unlike Trump's opponent in 2020 or 2016 had a a sort of a plausibility gap that I think this helps her get over um she's a different person than he's run against before in the sense that she wasn't a known quantity and I think to be um to be a plausible candidate she needed to have something like the night that she had this is more dangerous a development for him than the other debates were all right we're coming back with Andy because if you didn't listen to the McCarthy report and Rich yesterday you should go and get it because Andrew scared me again and we're going to talk about that during the break come back and talk about more stuff after the break don't go anywhere I'm Hugh hwit on the Salem Radio Network welcome back Andrew McCarthy and Rich Lowry uh everyone who's listening to this on the podcast or watching it on YouTube uh you should listen to McCarthy report yesterday you should listen to it every day and you should listen to the editors that rich convenes the Smart Guys and Gals over at National Review but Andrew at the end of yesterday as you said we're basically we're ready to get whacked by the bad guys in a 911 sort of way and I could not believe among the things I could not believe about the debate they didn't bring up her Goldberg paen executed 10 days ago American citizen 10 seven glancing nothing about China not one question about China I think that's because Disney's got theme parks there but generally it wasn't a serious debate Andrew and we're in very serious time would you repeat for my audience so that they go to the McCarthy report and listen to your your Exposition about this how much Peril we are in right now well I just think that we're in a situation you that in in many ways is very much like the three-year runup to 911 by which point the leadership of al-Qaeda had had moved from Sudan to Afghanistan except in some way in some ways we have more protection but in some ways the threat is is worse and what I mean is that um what Al-Qaeda needed to project power the way that it did on 911 which uh was more of a devastating strike against the United States uh than even Pearl Harbor was uh and that was actually a hit on the Homeland which no other uh foreign enemy had done in that kind of uh Dimension ever before what they needed was operational alliance with a home government that could not only give them safe haven but make it possible for them to train to recruit to raise money and to plot and they have we we are back to Taliban controlled Afghanistan in fact the only difference on that score between now and 911 is there's the possibility that if the Taliban Falls Isis will actually be the governing regime in Afghanistan which in some ways uh is even more frightening than the prospect of continued Taliban governance in Alliance with Al-Qaeda and I think while it's good that our intelligence sharing is by Leaps and Bounds much better than it was 23 years ago from the domestic side all the way across to International intelligence the Border has been eviscerated and we really don't have any control uh this government has taken no control over who is in our country including whose operatives have get gotten into our country uh so I think that combination of things gives me a kind of a a September T feeling that I'm not able to shake and that that frightens me a lot I I can't shake it either and Rich this brings me too the other takeaway um John portz mentioned this on the commentary pod yesterday John doesn't care for the president's performance at all but he's questioning himself did he throw the spotlight on migration enough and the the eating cats and dogs comment I was watching the debate with a very successful La prod producer and promoter who got up with about a minute to go and said they're eating the dogs that's all I needed to know and he laughed at Trump and he left and that that is sort of you know a lot of people but on the other hand everyone is now looking at Springfield a city of 58,000 people in the 2020 census that has had 20,000 Haitians move into it in three and a half years I love the Haitian people we support missionaries who go to Haiti I I just don't think any small town in Ohio can absorb 20,000 of anybody and not be did was Trump cunning by just hammering this did that actually get people to look at Springfield he did talk about it all the time right almost every answer he got the Border in and it's not the cats and dog saying is not what I would have mentioned about Springfield I mean the three or four facts that you could mention uh that would be more more reliable but it's gotten people talking about Springfield right more than they would have otherwise this also goes to another David mure fact check so he mentioned the cat and dog thing and Mir says well the city manager says that's not true but how did Mir know the city manager was right we we still can't be sure the city manager was right so again it's not his his role to say that we do have a call to uh emergency services from a local resident saying I see four Haitian immigrants taking four geese from from the pond and this guy is doing doing the call doesn't sound praise he sounds very reliable the thing is you that no one cares really about geese right I think you can eat as many geeses as you want because people consider them a pest it's a it's the cats and the dogs that get people's attention but that aside 20,000 or maybe it's 15 some people say 15 but 15 or 20 in an underlying population of 58 is just shocking but when you have as many people who the last three and a half years we're coming back on the air yeah we're coming back on the air PA there this will be on the the network stay tuned welcome back America I'm Hugh hu with Andrew C McCarthy and Rich Lowry they both co-host the McCarthy report which drops weekly I wish they did it every day which does the editors three times a week as well two podcast that will be in my Washington Post column next week is how the broadcast world is changing we were talking during the break about there eating the dogs uh and the cats meme that's come up and whether or not uh president Trump former president Trump was cunning in overstating and focusing the issue on Springfield to draw attention to Springfield and Andy what do you think is he is he tricked this again via his very unusual media technique of using a sledgehammer on a a a glass thimble to get everyone to look at it what do you think Andy well maybe maybe has uh but I think you this more goes to your observations about the unseriousness of this as rich I discussed the other day I about fell out of my chair when she said that there were no American forces currently in combat zones around the globe um you know I'm I'm I I have gotten about as far as I can go in terms of how interested I am in the cats and dogs but why isn't somebody factchecking her on that I mean she's been the number I have Senator Sullivan coming up next hour because I've got family on the Lincoln and the hotties are shooting at it you know I I I'm I'm outraged yeah and and and you should be but you know she says that she's the last person in the room on Afghanistan she's portrayed herself as the most important National Security advisor that this president has had for four years I presume she gets the presidential Daily Brief every day for her under those circumstances to look the American people in the eye and say for the first time our Administration is the administration that doesn't have any Americans in combat zones when we've had the houthis just to take that one example um have made scores of uh attacks in the last since October 7th so in the last 11 months targeting American forces and successfully striking them you know we've been very fortunate that the casualty number has been low but this is a thrum that's gone on for 11 months I just I found that mindboggling that you could say that now Rich um you guys talked on this yesterday about the law fair and how the hunter Biden thing has had to be settle he had to plead guilty because it would have been catastrophic to have a six weeks trial I know the judge so I don't want to get too involved in talking about that case it's my rule and I don't want to get too involved in how NBC and CNN did the debates in which I participated because again confidentiality rules but do you think they had a conversation in the room again it's it usually is 30 to 50 people on every single debate prep session from brass to moderators to people in the back the producers Etc do you think they iously decided not to fact check kamla Harris and do you think they they just said we're not going to do China and somebody said we're we're not getting closed we got theme pars there because I don't know how you don't talk about China in a presidential debate yeah clearly you know you go through the the questions and you come up with a bunch of them and you throw throw some out and leave a lot on The Cutting Room floor so they must have thought of asking about sh you you would think right it would be bizarre if they didn't and for whatever reason they they left that one on the floor but decided to ask Trump about you know a month- old controversy something he said at a black journalist Forum it's it's just a a totally bizarre choice I think not asking about Hunter is a little bit more understandable given you know Biden's no longer the main main issue uh or or the the the opponent anymore is still a big issue it should be a big issue and you that was one of Trump's best moments right when he said she's Biden you know he could do much worse than going and saying that 20 times a day from now until election day so Andy the I don't want to talk about H Biden either I don't even want to talk about the Biden family I heard you say for 50 years the guy's been saying stuff that serves as immediate short-term objective so we we're done with Biden I'm not interested in that I'm interested in whether or not the moderators consciously had a plan to lift her up and protect her be her training wheels as you said on the McCarthy report yesterday and repeated off air that will be in my podcast today do you think they plan that I mean I I I can't imagine how they would end up this bad and after I listen to the ruthless podcast and Josh Holmes has negotiated debates I've been in them they did a line by line if you guys listen to ruthless a line by line on the on the debate and they're just stunned at how bad it was like the RoR scale is exponential not not incremental this wasn't most media bias is at at a five on the RoR scale this was an eight on the RoR scale do you think they planned it that way Andy or did they fall into blue bubble bias well I think blue bubble bias is there's a lot of uh intent behind that too but I I you know I this kind of reminds me you of during the Obama Administration I was asked all the time do you think Obama told holder to do that I mean I I think we went like four years with that and my answer to that was always holder is there BEC precisely because Obama doesn't want to have those kinds of conversations he is in that position because he knows what's expected of him and if he deviates from what's expected of him they have subtle ways of getting him back on of course I including not so subtle ways I I imagine as well but I don't think it's I don't think the conversations are necessary the same way that people think about uh you know conspiratorial groups that I used to prose prosecute you know eons ago where you actually did have people have to plan out criminal escapades because that's just the nature of the Beast um I think that these people are in the jobs that they're in uh in the institutions that they're in because they know exactly what's expected of them and a lot of this is seamless and probably wordless but everybody knows what they're supposed to do and they and they executed it in fact that's interesting if they had to plan it they may not have been as uh as grotesque as they were in terms of the extent to which they went to to lean Harris's way and give Trump a hard time that's the kind of thing probably if you expressly had to plan it out someone would say no no no we can't get away with that well I but what I want the audience to know is how there were 12 rehearsals for the NBC debate I did with the and Ronda Sanz and Nikki Haley and Chris Christie and whoever the fifth was there were five on the Tim Scott uh and every every question was planned every question was rehearsed my questions were all about China and all about Tik Tock and their Navy and their military and they they don't veto they test and they and we anticipate responses and we know where we're going next it's a script Rich it's like putting an issue of National Review together right it's planned you just don't take everything that comes in over the tram and jam it into the magazine uh Jack Butler doesn't run the nro online that way where he's the online editor what do you think did did they consciously decide no China no hirs Goldberg Polland we're not going to do that stuff yeah I think they consciously decided what they were going to ask what they were not going to ask and I think the it had to be a decision to fact check or not fact check right that was such a that was a big debate prior to the CNN debate there was a big debate after the CNN debate all us Wonder Fair debate were delighted with it but the left was absolutely outraged by it and made a huge deal of it and and made as though CNN had committed this fundamental offense against journalism by having neutral uh moderators so I think they decided to fact check I I kind of doubt they they sat there as Andy I think the Obama holder anal is really good one that they sat there said not only fact check Trump that's where the blue bubble comes in where they only think Trump is untruthful and and and K is fine so they they only fact check one candidate if you're if you're planning it you would have been more careful about covering your tracks at least fact checking her once they didn't even do that now the law fair has become obvious and the two counts in Atlanta dismissed yesterday as Trump predicted he would win every case eventually not going to win the uh if he loses one he's going to lose the obstruction case in Florida uh and it's Jack Smith's bad that he didn't isolate democrats should be mad at him I I'm not sure that it's it's that Trump um I haven't I haven't seen his defense yet so I can't say he's going to lose but that's the strongest case against him has the media gone as far as law fair in other words laware is a term of art now we know what it means it's the weaponization of the justice department both state and federal Andy McCarthy has the media gone as far as the justice system has to prosecute and persecute its enemies within the blue as perceived by the blue bubble I think so you know I used to uh talk about the when I would write about this kind of stuff I would I would talk about the Democratic party and their their media allies and over the last number of years I've instead referred to it as the media Democrat complex because I actually think the media is the senior partner here and you know Progressive politicians come and go but the media is eternal and I do think that they have more of a thumb on the scale today than uh I think they're more audacious now than they ever have been which is saying something but I think they they believe they're having their moment and there are a lot of days I wonder whether they're not right about that all my podcasts roll together so I don't know if you guys brought up George W HW Bush with Dan Rather which is when the push back began or whether that was uncomfortably smug or on comment I can't remember where heard it but I said yeah that's where the push back came rich is it has media fair become the equivalent of law fair now at least among what I call Manhattan Beltway media Elites Legacy Media yeah it's blatant and it it gets worse all the time which is so depressing to you because we spent you know probably uh a large percentage of our careers complaining about media bias we have whole organizations devoted to exposing media bias and they've very good jobs at it and and we have media Outlets that count counter report narrative fake narratives the media comes up with very effectively but the media still gets worse and this may be the worst worst most biased debate moderation we've ever seen and uh so it's had no effect on them some of them they're conscious partisans a lot of them they're unconscious partisans but it doesn't matter it it adds adds up to this this edifice that is a huge a huge huge thumb on the scale and if Trump loses will clearly be part of the reason he's he's defeated if he is we have we have one more segment uh but very quickly one we have one minute to the break and then one segment after the break exit question onest you know like the old mclin group can the media be saved uh Rich Lowry can the media be saved no it's it's fundamentally corrupt and we need to do more to develop our more our own institutions devoted to reporting Andrew McCarthy can the media be saved I don't know that it it it matters uh but I think we exaggerate how much it matters because let's remember Republicans do get elected Donald Trump did get elected the media is about as popular as Congress is so you know yes they're they're on in the tank for one side but that has its tail effect as well I have one more question offer you're going have to listen to our podcast to get it it's about the Chinese spy in New York welcome back America I'm with Andy McCarthy and Rich Lowry uh if you've not been in a news cycle there was a Chinese spy in the new New York governor's office both per hok and Cuomo a spy and how much damage can a spy do well they can take thumb drives and put air gapped computers and put malware in or they can just do soft influencing Rich Lowry are you following the story how much damage could she have done it was quite quite bad you know she clearly succeeded in in tilting uh the the how the government of New York handled China handled Taiwan in beijing's favor and I to to Hugh it seems to me you know there's been a big focus on on Russia and Russia's influence operations but to the extent we know about them in 16 and and now Russia's kind of spent a lot of money on things that just don't matter you know some internet memes on Facebook that that no one watched you know in in 16 this latest tenant tenant media thing you know the indictment adds up how many views these videos got collectively to make it sound like a massive thing but if you average it out over the the video that were created it it was very small whereas China has carried out the most successful Espionage operation ever against the United States they they've stolen all her industrial secrets and when people are exposed it's like this she had she was that was really worth China's money that was they they got a lot of bang for their for their bucks so this this is something we need to take extremely seriously and Andrew when you were Prosecuting people in the southern district I was at the do J doing fisa warns for the AG and what these people do no one really has any idea they can watch the Americans get sort of a glimpse it wasn't wet work there wasn't any of that stuff going how much damage could she have done Andy a great deal but what I worry about is that it's the tip of the iceberg you know this is the one we see we have compared to the Cold War and I think Neil Ferguson makes this point brilliantly all the time we have a very integrated economy with China um we have relations with China that that don't even compare to what what went on in the Cold War where there was very little economic integration between the United States and Soviet Union and not a lot of Foreign Exchange so they're pervasively in not only you know you you think about the federal government but the the state government as we're seeing but also in Corporate America on the campus in all of the institutions of opinion and I know we want to put Biden in the rearview mirror but the house investigation shows that in two different schemes communist Chinese regime paid the bidens just between 2014 and 2019 8 million dollar do we think that they were doing that for nothing do do that's that's why Hunter Ed yeah that's why Mark garzy had him read the indictment because he's pleading guilty to all that uh uh that money and now they should I hope there's a far case coming Andrew and Rich you've been very generous with your time I'm going to keep plugging away at getting people to listen to the editors and the McCarthy report as well as as commentary and other other podcasts as an alternative being informed but please come back for my DMV special because Rich you almost got thrown out of a DMV and Andy you had come from the DMV and I have tried in a DMV and so if the DMV is represented of the government I think we should do the DMV special so please come back in the future we'll do an entire hour on DMVs thank you friends thanks guys