[Music] all right welcome to the Scott Horton Show I'm the director of the libertarian Institute editorial director of antiwar.com author of the book Fool's Aaron time to end the war in Afghanistan and the brand new enough already time to end the war on terrorism and I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2003 almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at Scot hon.org you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com/ Scot Horton Show man you guys last Tuesday's 2 minutes hate was lit but even as we grasp at Victory there is a cancer an evil T growing spreading in our mixture shout shout shout out his name you oh man everybody was so upset well I happen to have Emanuel Goldstein on the line to comment on some of the criticisms that came down at last Tuesdays two minutes hey welcome to the show darl Cooper how are you man I'm doing great believe it or not thank you it's always great to be with you Scott uh very good to have you here man um wow so what a riot that was huh uh martyr made podcast the number one podcast in America and for very good reason and it should have been all along but now it is and um and all because you got yourself in some hot water on the Tucker Carlson show previously the number one podcast in America uh when you guys got into a discussion of Winston Church Hill and World War II so yeah people missunderstood you some of them okay like almost all of them in bad faith but maybe some of them not maybe some of them only fell for bad faith smears against you so I thought you know what you gave a little rebuttal on your substack there but uh I thought I'd have you on the show to talk a little bit about what you said and what you meant and how they took you wrong so uh you know sure yeah um absolutely and and and I will say too that I think um the people who the people who understood me just fine uh in a lot of ways we're probably the ones who felt most threatened and and that might be for for good reason because when you're dealing with a uh when you're dealing with a loadbearing myth like the World War II story that really has so much that rests on it you know so there's so much that uh you know having to do with geopolitical power I mean class Rel relations between different kinds of groups the way people in the west and the rest of the world understand you know their recent history and their rle in the everything there's so much that depends on that story remaining a sort of guarded myth and uh you know the people out there who who attacked me in bad faith which was the I think the majority um they're just you know doing what people on the internet do uh the people out there who understood like you know that on some level that that that when we begin to question loadbearing myth like that uh you know sometimes there are unpredictable consequences but but you know you have to try to look at the truth yeah well I certainly agree with that well all different parts of that and especially the whole thing about you know though the heavens fall you can't just you know live a lie it's like Jeb Springfield you know and I guess maybe sometimes Lisa held her tongue on that one but listen um yeah not so much Churchill and the world war because it is the foundational myth of the American World Empire as you guys talked about on the show there that George Washington and even Abraham Lincoln are really irrelevant now it's FDR and Truman and I guess Eisenhower are the real founding fathers of modern America as it exists and and all based on the you know kind of hero myth of World War II and I have no idea who I'm talking about anymore but I saw some guy say or right years ago that he was explaining the world wars to his children and he found that it was really easy to explain World War II the bad guys were unmitigated evil the Imperial Japanese and the German Nazis they had to be stopped and we're the good guys obviously compared to them and we whooped their ass good which is what you're supposed to do with a bad guy but World War I is kind of harder to explain because you have like the austr Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire and the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire and see it seems like there's all a bunch of Empires and all these people were killed and the best explanation is that it was a big accident and that they blundered into it because they stupidly abided by their treaties and their previous military shyen plans and so forth that just kicked it all into gear in a giant fight that everybody wished that they had never really fought pretty hard to explain that to a 10-year-old I don't know but World War II I mean come on Tojo and Hitler whose side are you on Daryl and I know that you're a Navy veteran so um a built-in American Patriot and obviously no matter what they say a real ass and extremely accomplished historian so I don't know why don't you give us the basics of what could you possibly have to revise about our understanding of Winston Churchill in the second world war well I think it's important to understand and this is really Common Sense Once you bring it to mind right is anytime you have a story that a historical event that uh becomes a myth of the kind I'm talking about and when I say a myth you know people say something's a myth they mean it's a lie it's not true that's it's not what it means it means it's become a symbol that uh is is really designed to like it's attached to a whole constellation of emotions and and uh responses that you know really are are are drilled down into all of us by education by media by parents by the whole society from a very very early age you implant these symbols in children and continue to re enforce them as they grow up so that when those so that those symbols once they enter the adult world can be activated to put a society of people on the same page regarding you know an issue that that is considered sort of uh Central to to uh to what the society's trying to do whether that's maintain its cohesion or Identity or if it needs to be mobilized right so um and World War II is one of those things World War I is not one of those things you know it's not a myth it's and again that doesn't say that our uh that our that our version of the history is any more true or false it's again I just want to reinforce that's not what that means it just means it's not important to our self- understanding it's just not you know the things that the American Revolution is not particularly important to our self- understanding anymore you know uh it's a uh you I think as as time has passed and uh the demography of the country has transformed to to a degree that you know the people who have a a direct attachment um to the American Revolution the founding fathers have sort of moved on and become smaller uh that that has really lost its pow so you can you can go tear down a statue of George Washington and you know depending on the city you do it in you won't even be prosecuted uh but if you were to go tear down a statue of uh Martin Luther King say uh then you know or or or or squeal your tires out in an intersection with a rainbow flag painted on it you're going to be prosecuted for a hate crime and so those things are protected in a way that you know the the non- mythologized events are not protected and whenever you have an event like that and I would say ours are the Civil War World War II and the Civil Rights Movement which if you notice the way people talk about them they're talked about really as like one long War you know um for the the same two sides fighting over the same two issues and the Civil War was you know we won the battle domestically uh World War II was we had to go win this B same battle globally and then the Civil Rights Movement was sort of uh you know going around shooting the survivors it was like the cleanup afterwards and uh or the postwar Reconstruction I guess and that's kind of how how people really do view it and so whenever you have historical events that are uh that are protected like that I mean in Europe again Tucker and I talked about this I mean Europe World War II the official version events of events is like literally protected by law and doesn't mean you can't question anything about it but there there are things that you cannot question about I you know if I lived in Austria right now uh I would probably be in some you know legal hot water at least in danger and so when you have something like that is inevitable it is completely obvious I would say that there are going to be gaps in our understanding of that event you know because to really get a full understanding of any event there have to be room not just to have you know sort of very informed reason debate about thing what there needs to be room to like for people to ask stupid questions and for people to put out uh theories that you know get maybe just get slapped down like that proc proc is how we get to the truth of any of these things and that's why you know if if you look at like uh any other War like you know a war besides World War II and the Civil War in the US you have us this sort of same you have this sort of same uh mytholog mythologization uh process that takes place for a while you know if you were to go in 2004 and maybe it was starting to change already by then 2003 in the leadup to the war and you were against the Iraq War I mean you're going to have David FR write a piece about you in uh National Review and get you written out of the conservative movement and essentially just cast out you know as a leper from polite Society that's that's how it started after a little while as things changed and as it moved away and it became uh you know it Lost That Power World War II is has not lost that power at all and we're sort of still in that 2003 mode where if you say that like you know this war was a bad idea or things could have been done differently or that you know we took some actions that uh that that may have been responsible for contributing you know to to to the current situation um you know you get that same you get that same reaction that you would have gotten for the Iraq War in 2003 so yeah um that's you know the problem though is I mean we're talking presumably hear about grown adults over the age of 18 and certainly a self-described historian ought to be able to talk about history without people getting emotional about it I mean who in the world I mean maybe on some ridiculously Kami campus somewhere but not really like there it doesn't exist where there are Americans who side with hoochi Min or with Saddam Hussein or David Kesh or Bashar al-assad or Vladimir Putin it's just that they're criticizing things that our presidents and our politicians and our uh Military Officers do right our our spies and the blowback they cause none of that means that you're on the side of whatever bad guy dour and it's the same with Germany and the Nazis too like you got to be able to talk about it and certainly you know censorship doesn't work it's uh even like self-imposed informal censorship like this it just backfires anyway you really think only a bunch of pro- Hitler Nazis ought to be able to talk about World War II from any point of view other than you know St FDR won that war by himself um that's a bad idea right you don't want to see the argument to people who you know like and in fact here's an example Roseanne Bar got in trouble because as everyone knows she's Jewish and she used to be anti-zionist and is now like very Pro Zionist and she was in an interview or something and she was paraphrase she was rambling a bit but she was clearly paraphrasing the old joke about the only people who deny the Holocaust are people who wish it had happened and they took her saying that as though she was saying that and went after her for that and it's like they just want to make the whole any kind of uh a discussion of the subject so radioactive but then you're just leaving it open to people who wish it had happened to talk all about it and be the ones you know who deny it and wish it it happened to be the on do that for a long yeah you could do that for a long time and uh it you know the effect was you know it was it was just it was very different than it is today right because back until very recently the ability to for large institutions to control the narrative on anything and access to information on anything was it's just extremely powerful you know and so uh the fact that there might be a little you know uh Cult of people over here who who uh are way off the reservation you know Neo-Nazi group or something you know and they're the only ones talking about a revisionist World War II story you know in 1970 or whatever it it wasn't most people never going to hear about those guys they never going to meet those guys the problem is that now with the internet you know you have and I've seen this happen with people before people online you know they they learn something that's not part of the official narrative but is true something that like you know if you were to go read all the mainstream historical books and put the information together uh you would you would find the information you know at least everybody talking around it a little bit you could put that picture together but it's something that's not uh you know just take to take an example something I brought up like the fact that Hitler offered peace uh to Britain in France several times uh after the invasion of Poland and then to Britain several times after the invasion of uh of France and and the conquest of Western Europe you know it's not like Neil Ferguson or or Andrew Roberts denies that or anything and if you go read their books on it like it's in there uh but when you know but it's it doesn't filter into the popular understanding and it's not something that you bring up in like a discussion about World War II unless you know and the idea is unless you're you're trying to make some some revisionist point like in support of Hitler or the Nazis right and so the problem is when people start to learn learn things or they hear things uh that that they're that are not spoken about by uh you know the the sort of official sources they go out looking for the information and they find on the internet in some comment section on a website they probably never should have gone to uh that there's you know those are the only people who seem to be willing to talk to them about this and tell them the truth about it and they've gained credibility with these people and you know the the the the mainstream historians who seem not to want to talk about it or even punish people who do uh they start to lose credibility with with those people and then you know you see them start to Veer off I mean we're all uh you very exposed to this if you're on if you're on Twitter or any social media now that you know you see these people who who get completely sucked into uh the the just the the whatever you want to call that the the anti-semitic sort of World War II revisionist pro- Hitler uh mind thing they get obsessed with it you know in a way that they don't with other issues and I think that that is like that's a product of of this particular narrative being at being so protected that I mean if you go you know if you listen to my interview with Tucker I mean I'm really just regurgitating Pat Buchanan Circa 2007 you know points things that are uh you know maybe I could have been a little more clear on certain things or something but nothing that you can't find in a book that was published by St Martin or McMillan or something like that it just wasn't a single thing I said that can't be found found in any mainstream book uh and we saw the nuclear explosion that happened as a result you know I got denounced by the White House I got denounced by the uh the Democrat party's uh you know Jewish caucus in Congress and like every major Network every newspaper The Washington Post editorial board yeah I mean and so you know um when people see that you know there's a counter there's always going to be a counter reaction to something like that and uh and unfortunately you know we we see that just very strongly because of what you said we leave the we we leave the the questioning to people who really do have bad intentions you know who who really do want you to take a view that uh that that you know for your own for your own well-being you'd be better off not taking right and then so and it sucks because when they isolate the argument to just Cooks then when somebody who's not a c brings the argument up they just pretend that you're with them when it's just not true and they did try to do this to Pat Buchanan it's he's such a Mainstay of American society at that time it's pretty hard to say that the guy's anything but a patriot God he's Ronald Reagan's guy and in his book Church Hill the book is called Church Hill Hitler and the unnecessary war and that part quotes because the unnecessary War that's a quote from Winston Churchill and he's the one who called it that at the end of the war and said oops it looks like we stuck the wrong Pig he said and so the argument is pretty obvious in fact Truman Senator Truman made the argument at the time that America should fund Hitler he went that far America not should not just stay out we should fund Hitler as long as he's losing and then as soon as he starts winning we should start funding Stalin that was what he said but the idea was Let them fight why in the world would Churchill want to force in a way and this is how Buchanan's book reads he sort of twists Hitler's arm and makes him invade and destroy all the Western democracies first to secure his Western flank before he goes after his Nemesis Stalin which is just which he had apparently no intention of doing until Churchill made it clear that your Western flank will not be secure if you go east so you're gonna have to do something about that first is that right yeah I mean look people are gonna people will object to that by pointing to uh or you're asking specifically about the Western flank that's definitely true I mean he had Hitler had absolutely no intention and no desire to uh to fight Britain or France I mean that and again that's not that's really not uh even disputed by by any mainstream historian that I'm aware of and so um you know and they'll say that's just because he you know wanted to preserve his forces to go east and commit genocide and whatever but the fact is he did not want to fight them and so you have to look at the you know it when whenever you're engaging in counterfactuals obviously it's always rocky road but sure when you when you have a a situation where the outcome that happened was pretty much the worst thing that ever happened right where you know what 60 million people killed maybe uh 40 init for Britain the British lost their empire as a result of World War II uh you know turned over the world to uh you know two large uh empires in in the Union in the United States just a total transformation that was not at all to Britain's benefit or or or Europe Europe's at all and so when that's the case and and it's just you know resulted in so much Carnage I mean just an unbeliev I mean something that made us forget World War I like almost literally right the worst the Great War the worst thing that ever happened in Europe it pretty much just made people almost forget about it it it's like that's how terrible it was and so when the outcome that we got is that bad you have to engage in some alternative history and some counterfactuals and say what might have happened if uh you know if just as an example I mean if you go uh you know my my my criticism at church let me let me just put it this way first too I I I said at the beginning I was being kind of provocative and and hyperbolic when I brought up Churchill specifically because you know Churchill you can hold him personally responsible for a lot of things I think he should be uh but you know this he he was enacting British policy and uh if he would have gone strong if he would have if he would have made peace with Hitler or tried to in in 1940 in June 1940 uh as he suggested actually at one point to the to to the war cabinet he he said that you know he suggested that maybe they they should accept uh the offer that Hitler had sent he changed his mind the next day but um there were several others you know in the war cabinet who who who thought that was the case that they should do that if would have done that he would have been out of office you know and somebody else would have been put in who would have carried out British policy which was to continue and escalate the war so you know pinning it on him personally is uh you know it's sort of a version of uh pinning the Iraq War on George W bush instead of the US security establishment in general which again is what you said in the part that nobody included in your quote that like hey guys I'm kind of being provocative picking a fight here to get you to think about it a little differently for a change you know kind of that's quite a disclaimer before you say something like that for them to just pretend you didn't say right and so with that with that disclaimer you know the the questions really are you know if you have a situation where I if you go to uh the summer of 1940 after Hitler has conquered France cleaned up Western Europe I mean you could and after the the British have evacuated at Dunkirk you can make the case and there were uh there again there were elements within the British establishment Lord Halifax was one of them uh who who did make this case that look the war's over and we lost you know there's no opposing force on the European continent that is that forget being capable of of fighting against Germany and like going and taking this territory back and turning the tides of this war there isn't one period there simply is not he's you know he's apparently buddies with uh Joseph Stalin right now he's friends with musolini like there's nobody on the continent who's going to oppose him who can't oppose him and so we you know the reasonable thing to do would be to come to the table and see what we can figure out especially when you know Germany's advancing peace offers that say outright we don't want you to give up any of your colonies we we want the British Empire to be strong because we need it strong it's good for the world we need it to like help oppose communism I mean you know these are things that again you know we can people look back on today and they don't deny that these that these offers were out there what they deny of course is that any of them were sincere or that the British had you know because of Munich because of uh you know what later happened with um you know betraying the Soviets uh in 1941 that these were just clearly lies clearly you know meant to uh buy time or or preserve their forces for for their eventual crimes in the E whatever it is but they were not in good faith and so the British had no obligation to take them to take them seriously and the thing is like that that could be true for sure like that could definitely be true like that Winston Church Jo the British could have made peace after Dunkirk and you know in 1941 or 1942 whatever Hitler eventually just invades East and kills all the Jews and does everything like all that's possible for sure but the example that I gave in that response piece you mentioned uh you know is I said imagine like this is a imagine you have a police standoff and inside the house is a father who's like completely hopped up on meth uh you know Hitler was obviously or not obviously but as a lot of people know um you know was was using amphetamines very very heavily for the last several years uh in the leadup to and and and during the war to keep him self going and you know anybody who's read uh about the effects of long-term amphetamine heavy amphetamine abuse like that uh you know it leads to paranoia it leads to often delusional psychosis it it definitely warps your uh you know your view of the world and you put on top of that that the German people themselves uh you know who Hitler really feels himself to sort of be the embodiment of at this time you know know that really is what kind of the the the fur principle was uh these this is just a profoundly traumatized people you know people who came out of the first world war with the sense of betrayal and defeat went through the social and economic and cultural degradation of the 1920s while the rest of the western world was having a big you know a big party and then to come into the Great Depression and to have a guy like uh Adolf Hitler come along and take over and things actually do begin to stabilize and improve you know this is uh and and right as they start to stabilize and improve the entire world starts to sort of place them under political Siege you know which is which is what happened very early in in uh in the National Socialist uh regime's Reign and by the time you get up to the war you know you have a people and this is like you could read like uh Nicholas starart book uh book the German war which again is a mainstream book it's not some revisionist work it just uses a lot of uh letters and Diaries between German people themselves between you know this gider and this party official or whatever to get an idea of like how this looked to the people in Germany at the time um and obviously there were a diversity of views like anytime but you he really conveys the sense that like they believed that they were the ones Under Siege and under attack like they which to us is crazy right that's just insane like they're obviously the ones trying to conquer the world and make us all speak German they seriously didn't see it that way and the regime itself didn't see it that way and so if you have to to go back to my metaphor the police outside and there's a guy inside who's hopped up on amphetamines and he's holding a gun on his wife and kids threatening to kill everybody and that guy in there is paranoid that guy feels like the whole world is surrounding him and the the walls are closing in and you know if that if that situation ends in a murder suicide and the grandparents of uh that girl uh the woman who died and the grandparents uh the parents of the woman who died the grandkids of the kids who died in that uh situation find out that this guy was saying look I'll come out and let everybody go if you do this if you'll only do that if you only do this and maybe all of those uh maybe all of those were in bad faith maybe none of his demands were acceptable to any reasonable person or something but if you were to find out that the police not only that they just refused to even engage him on it and that in fact whenever he he did put one of these things out they would just insult him and throw him back in his face and like continually you know literally like like Churchill made a habit out of when Hitler would Advance one of these peace proposals to escalate the level of bombing on civilian targets like that night or the next night I mean he may and this was intentional this was a response to like to to that uh you know after Hitler's June 1940 um uh call for peace sort of his you know his his final appeal uh broadcast that that they broadcast across the the English Channel because they wanted to try to get directly to the British people uh because they knew that obviously the official information sources were censored like they were everywhere in the war um you know the BBC broadcasted back in German you know we throw your peace offer back in your evil smelling teeth and so imagine you're the you know the parents of the of the woman who died the grandparents of the kids who died in that horrible situation and you find out that that's the way the cops were behaving toward toward you know uh that's how they were maning you you'd be you'd have some questions you know and the cops could say look this guy was crazy he killed his wife he killed himself and his kids like uh how how are we responsible for what this crazy man did and the thing is you're you know you're not responsible in the sense like you didn't kill anybody but when you're the responsible party in a situation like that you know you have a certain obligation to try to deescalate like your job should be to try like it's not the guy in The house's job to get the the the the woman and the children out safely it's your job you know you see this o it's very similar like you you see similar rhetoric with the current Gaza conflict you know where people will say like you you you'll criticize behavior of the IDF in Gaza and the first question is always why don't you talk more about Hamas why don't you talk about what are they doing well hey there's one easy way to uh to end this whole situation and that's Hamas surrenders and gives up all the hostages and then guess what we would have peace it's like dude like hamama Hamas is holding the H like it's not their responsibility to like get those people out safe they're the ones with the gun at their heads you know it's it's everybody else's responsibility try to find a way to get those people out safe yeah and and to say that is not to lift responsibility from like the primary perpetrator nothing to do with that right and as you also said in there it look everybody knows that Hitler is a bad guy like do I really have to say that part too hey you guys coming up this October 7th through the 11th join Miguel thorup host of the xat money podcast the heroic Ron Paul the great Tom Woods Doug Casey Mark Faber Tom Luongo myself and many other great speakers for the online expat money Summit 2024 my presentation will be on the subject of my new book provoked how Washington started the new cold war with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine which is not quite out yet and learn how you can reclaim your freedom by moving abroad legally reduce your tax bill and protect your assets more than 8,000 people attended last year and it's free my guys Kyle anzelone and Dave damp from The Institute and antiwar.com will be joining a panel discussion as well just go to 2024 Xpat moneys summit.com for all the info that's 2024 Xpat moneys summit.com well I guess it was just a matter of time I drank so much coffee I turned into some hey guys check out the Scott Horton Show Special Blend at Mundos Artisan coffee.com it's a blend of organically grown Ethiopian and Sumatran coffee beans two very different coffees combined to create a unique blend Ethiopia is smooth and medium bodied Sumatra Rich heavy bodied coffee and it's got caffeine lots of it which is good for if you have to drive drunk or get up in the morning click through from the link in the right hand margin at Scot hon.org to save 10% on your order it's the Scott Horton Show blend from Mundos Artisan coffee hey guys I had some wasps in my house so I shot them to death with my trusty Bug Assault 3.0 model with the improved salt Reservoir and bar safety I don't have a deal with them but the show does earn a kickback every time you get a Bug Assault or anything else you buy from amazon.com by way of the link in the right-and margin on the front page at Scott horton.com the war Lies by me for free just sign up the email list at the bottom of the page at Scot horton.com like yeah dude we already agreed the guy's a criminal in this case we already agreed that he's a mad dictator and who already was putting own people in camps and all of this stuff you know what I mean I mean come on wasn't in dispute whether the Nazis were totalitarians or whether they were Saints yeah and the metaphor might seem extreme but I mean actually like a lot of the the the National Socialist leadership like in their own writings to each other in their Diaries and things they talked about the Jews of Europe that were under their power as uh hostages like that's that's actually how they thought of it because they really did believe and again M you know you it doesn't matter if the guy inside the house is delusional and paranoid or whatever like that's not the point yeah you know if you if you understand that that's who you're dealing with you have to treat the situation as it is not as if you know he was uh he was as you as you wish he would be right and they really did believe that you know um the United States Great Britain and the Soviet Union were under control of the international Jewish you know Jewish power and that they were behind this great SE worldwide Siege of Germany you know and when you you know when when there's actually there's actually internal discussions in writings you can read where you know Hitler and a lot of his uh a lot of his upper leadership when when Churchill and the British just continually refused to uh to to even discuss terms of Peace um um when they continued to escalate the war when uh they had no uh Army no no ability to cross the channel and like actually fight the Germans they were basically just engaging in in terrorism against civilian targets through the air and then the starvation blockade of course um they thought the British were crazy like there's that's like the word that was used he thought he thought Winston Churchill was crazy and the British were had lost their minds or something but what that eventually the explanation they eventually settled on was not that they were crazy but that they were under the control of somebody else because clearly this is not in the interest of the British Empire to keep doing this like why so why else are they doing it well it's the inter it's what we always knew it's the international Jewish conspiracy Etc so you have people who are thinking that way talking about the Jews under their power as hostages you know to hold hold off this like International conspiracy and like you know something to threaten them with if you come it up and then you just escalate and escalate and escalate and refuse to talk to that person like that to me is just it's completely irresponsible you know and people transform the discussion into if you think we should have tried to make peace with Germany that means you wanted all the Jews to die when what it really means and I think this again this is like if you step back from it a bit that this is you know that this is what's being said uh what you're saying is if you know the British if you're saying the British should have tried to make peace uh and maybe it would have been impossible if they would have tried to make peace in in 1940 tried to avoid war uh after you know Hitler had conquered Poland and offered to give all the rest of Poland back except for uh you know the quarter to Dan Zig and everything um that they should have tried it doesn't mean you want all the Jews to die or anybody else to die it means that you think and I do think think that this is a possibility at least it's something that's worth discussing that if they had tried to do that maybe those Jews wouldn't have died maybe fewer Jews would have died you know maybe few certainly fewer people would have died yeah all right so few things first of all this is just great it's like listening to your podcast Hitler didn't have grand designs or anything I love talking with you about this stuff um okay so there's I've only read three books on this subject I'm no World War II historian at all but I read AJ Taylor and I read Pat Buchanan that's the first one is on the origins of the second world war Buchanan's is Churchill Hitler and the unnecessary war and then I also read a book by a guy named Nicholson Baker called human smoke which is just yeah news clippings it's uh it's I forget if he he has little summaries at the bottom or something just explaining what it is and so it's just like reading the news in the runup to you know Britain and Germany's war and then the book ends with now America is going to get involved and the way it looks in there darl is that what Hitler was saying and I'm not putting the blame on FDR here for this Germany declared war on the United States first in a major blunder hoping that they would get Japan to declare war on the Soviet Union uh which didn't work but um that they said if America gets involved in the war then they're going to kill all their Jewish hostages and that it was really American intervention because they knew just from their experience in World War I that if America's coming they're doomed and so if that being the case then they're going to have their revenge against every civilian Jew they can find in every last little village between there and Lithuania yeah and my contention you know on Tucker's show and ever since and always before uh that was that um when you have people when you have somebody leaders a country something like that that who are thinking that way then it's incumbent on the rest of us to try to uh maneuver it you know to do everything we can nobody's saying you have to like turn the whole of Europe over to them or something like but you have to you have to be to come out of it with a clean conscience you know in my opinion we need to be able to look at UH 60 million people dead and and millions of Jews and other ethnicities killed Etc after in the aftermath and say did we do everything we could on our end to reasonably to to avoid this situation from happening and I just think when you look at the runup to World War II I mean I think I might have like turned you on to that Baker Book like I encourage everybody to go read Baker's book human smoke and just read it honestly and tell me if if you know Britain the United States if we did everything we could on our end to try to avoid the scenario that ended up happening well look you're a real historian darl I'm not and I'll just tell you you read Buchanon and Churchill just comes off as George W bush and it's just oh I get it all these leaders are just the same as each other you know what I mean there's no reason there's no hero there there's no genius there you know again unnecessary War was what Churchill himself said oops guess we shouldn't have done that and that's pretty right I mean I don't know the whole context of Churchill's sorry I I don't know the whole context of Churchill's quote with that like I you know he may have been saying that if only we'd attacked Germany in 1933 then we wouldn't had to do this I don't know I I'm not sure I don't think so I'd have to go back but it's it's in Buchanan's book and I certainly don't remember it that way but wait so let me I got to nail you down on this and we we maybe should have started with this or or had this closer to the beginning of the interview here cuz this is an important point and this is where you got in a little bit of hot water in that interview too was you started to talk about the Holocaust but then you went off on a tangent making a comparison to what's happening in Gaza and the responsibility of the Israelis for the poor Palestinian civilians there and then y'all got off on whatever other things from there and you didn't go you didn't have a chance to go back so some took what you were saying cuz see in context you had just slammed Churchill and then you were saying on the other hand hey it ain't like I'm apologizing for the Germans boy they were terrible and then you were so it wasn't like you were this was part of your slamming of Churchill was that you were like apologizing for Germany this was the on the other side of the coin the Germans were of course also horrible however what you did say and then what was left unsaid made it seem like you were saying that the Holocaust was just what happened when the Germans ran out of food but then I know that that's not what you think because I've listened to Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem and I've heard you read the woman's statement from witnessing the massacre at Babin Yar in Kiev and and talking not too in depth about it because it was sort of a side issue but you did I think you know a a major segment of one of those podcasts about the Holocaust so I don't know everything that you know and think about it and I don't want you to spoil your whole upcoming podcast series on this but just for in the uh with a decent respect for the opinions of mankind would you tell us exactly what you meant about that and then elaborate as far as you want yeah because you're because you're right about the Tucker interview I'm sure anybody who's listening of this right now uh is is aware of like when I I don't do interviews very often I I like doing interviews with you and Dave and stuff because you guys are my are my friends but I you know I turn down almost every other interview because I mean as people can probably here I jump around I uh leave points sort of half finished lose my train of thought I I just uh I'm not particularly it's not it's not a skill set that's particularly strong with me I much prefer to uh sit down in my b basement and read my books and prepare exactly what I want to say in the form like in a long form podcast to get it out there it's just not my preferred format and honestly like even though I one thing I would correct is Tucker and I didn't mention the we didn't mention the Holocaust specifically I said the atrocities that took place in the East and so I was in you know I was I was taking all of just everything that happened over there um like outside the war fighting uh and uh what I was trying to get to with that and I I you know and again I don't honestly like there's a lot of bad faith out there I don't uh I don't really blame a lot of people for taking this uh the you know the way they did is one of the things I brought up is that as early as 19 July 1941 you have SS officials in the camps that are being set up as the Germans are moving writing back to high command in Berlin and this is in Nicholson Baker's book uh saying we don't have any food for these people they're all going to starve by winter all of the Jews that you know we that you're sending us are all going to starve by winter wouldn't it be more Humane to finish them off quickly by some quick acting means they say uh rather than letting them all slowly starve to death in the winter now people took that as you know the the only reason that any Jews died in you know Poland or Ukraine or bellarus is because the Germans happened to run out of food there was two things I was trying to accomplish with that first and this one I didn't get back to at all the second the second part I I did get back to a bit is that uh you know the hunger blockade was something that it really it was biting you know the civilian population throughout Europe at the time and people were coming to Churchill and telling him Herbert Hoover which is this is actually funny because the three big historians who they sort of commission to uh to to you know do rebuttal to my to my uh to my interview were uh Neil Ferguson Andrew Roberts and Victor Davis Hansen and they're all from the Hoover Institute and if any leader from that time would agree with my assessment of Churchill it would be Herbert Hoover he was he was going around the world going to England trying to figure out a way for the British to allow uh food shipments to go in that would you know be man he was trying look it'll be managed by a neutral country like Sweden uh to make sure it only gets to civilian populations in these occupied countries ET and they just refused and so church I have his book by the way Freedom betrayed have you read that one no it's right here on my shelf I haven't gotten into that one yet yeah I haven't either but it's been recommended to me as like a real eye opener and you know and so people are telling Churchill telling the you know the British government hey this is going to lead to mass starvation it's not going to affect the German Army because they're going to get first dibs on the food they have it's probably not going to affect the German civilian population it's going to affect all of these occupied populations and specifically the ones that the Germans don't need or don't like you know and so it's going to fall on the people who are old it's going to fall on women and children it's going to fall on people like the Jews who you know are obviously like if there's a food shortage in in in a German prison the people who are going to be at the bottom of the list you know to to the back of the line you know for lunch are going to be the Jews and so um just because they're you know just the way they they they thought about them like that's that's obvious and so these messages were going up to the British government and they were aware and they looked at it as an acceptable cost of continuing the war now does that mean that they're they're not M you know murdering those people necessarily like in in in the same sense that like a a German you know SS guard is murdering somebody when he shoots them but are they responsible for it at all because when you look at that letter from that uh from that SS officer at Posen the camp in Posen you know you get the impression that like this guy's not 100% comfortable with this like he's at least he's not 100% comfortable with just m killing and he's thinking you know in order for him to justify this to himself he has to put it in terms that make it the more Humane option and so at the very least the lack of food and resources was a was used as a justification to push people like him over the line you know and and and make it seem like it was just a wartime necessity and so there's there's at least that you know what and you know darl I mean you just barely mentioned it in context there but I think it's not in evidence most people don't know about this blockade and this is something that you know really made an impression on me in Nicholson Baker's book is that the only heroes in the book are the Quakers they're the ones who are doing everything they can to try to smuggle in Grain to poor starving you know ghettoised concentration camp ised people uh in the occupied territories there and they're being thwarted as you say by the British at every turn yeah it would be something like uh you know it would be something something like if uh you know with the current situation in Gaza right now if the if the food shortage got really bad like worse than it was and worse than it is and then we found out afterwards that uh a lot of the Israeli hostages either starved to death or died of hunger related diseases or were just killed by Hamas because they didn't have any food and they were dying of hunger whatever it is um you know does that mean that the Israelis enforcing the food blockade are responsible for the deaths of those Israeli soldiers maybe not but it definitely it it it definitely uh the responsibility for it it's a discussion worth having you know especially in terms of shaping our decision making and behavior in in future situations right so so that was the first point I was trying to get to is just to say that like look um you know the the the British were very aware that this was going to lead to a mass starvation among the civilian and vulnerable populations and specifically the people who were being rounded up and put in camps in the East the vulner the most vulnerable people and they they chose to continue it anyway and so you can have discussions about whether that was the right call or whatever but the fact is they knew it was going to happen and they chose to continue it that's the first point the second point I was trying to make and this is the one I did sort of get to uh on the back end of the discussion in the Tucker interview in the Tucker interview is I was trying to address like the the the the the perspective and the points that are made by like real the real revisionists right because you'll find people out there who will say that uh you know these people died of typhoid they died of starvation due to lack of food hey if you know the Japanese had managed to successfully invade uh the west coast of the United States and we were just being pushed back in a chaotic Manner and there was no food because crops were being destroyed and all our Rail lines were bombed what do you think would have happened to all those Japanese people in the internment camps they all would have starved to death or whatever and the same thing would have happened like these are the revisionist points that people that people try to make right and my point was to take those and say look even if all of that is true and this as you said like this whole this part of the discussion started when I was with a preface that said you know this isn't to defend the Germans this is like they are responsible is that even if all of that is true the fact remains that they made the decision to invade to the east without any plan whatsoever for what to do with for for the care of the millions of people that were going to come under their power and specifically they were going to take prisoners in other words you were saying you were saying at the very least this is their respons responsibility for the most generous interpretation of events like for the national socialists is still murder point that point was lost that you were sort of going with you know arguing you know to that uh angle yeah and and people see people again people listening see why it takes me a long time to get to a point sometimes I lose the thread halfway through or when I'm halfway through the you know trying to make it Tucker somebody else in Rejects and I end up going in a different direction it's you know uh again it's it's it's not a strength it's why I like working on uh long form prepared material uh better than sort of you know live discussion stuff because I it's just common that I Leave Myself open to uh misinterpretation misunderstanding I and I don't particularly blame people for that one so well no I mean look I do because clearly you know okay let's say I don't know you and I think that you just said some pretty Holocaust Deni sounding things to me I'm not just going to go turn around and say this guy's a Nazi and try to destroy your life before I even Google it and even figure out who you are at all when like anyone who's listened to Fear and Loathing knows that you're not an anti-semite that that's not where any of this stuff comes from and hell I mean I listen to the an anti humans and all of these things um as you said to Tucker well when I decided to do Fear and Loathing what I did was I read a few hundred books about it uh that's not what anti-semites do that's what historians do and clearly you're being a professional and doing your best and but as you say you sit down at an interview things go off the rails and then but people should always especially in this day and age people should always be charitable about what they think that they're hearing instead of just falling for the two minutes hate I mean I'm just ashamed of people they go oh this terrible terrible guy and it's like man you don't know why don't you start with gez I don't know but I heard that he was a terrible terrible guy why don't you just say that instead of you already bought it it's just it really is pathetic and and shameful um that it's just so easy for people to get their change jert whether you said what you said in absolute perfect syntax and without a Palestine tangent or not you know what I mean but anyway so here one of the reasons I uh when when the Gaza conflict started um people started hitting me up they wanted to debate me on it you know you remember when when you went on Tim pool with Will Chamberlain yeah I I told the people directly I told Will Chamber Chamberlain this when he wanted to debate me but I said look man this is not that's not my my strong suit like I sit down with the books I you know write my notes I do a prepared project you know about it uh sitting down across a table and going back and forth like in two minutes it's just not my strong suit if you really want someone to debate go talk to my buddy Scott Horton Dave Smith and so like you know the way I put it with Dave is like you know it's like uh you know like I my my Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem series that he that he learned a lot from is sort of it's like giving a trained sniper you know uh an Arctic Warfare Magnum sniper rifle and sending them out into the field on my behalf you know I do my part I uh you know I Smith the weapon for him maybe or help Smith the weapon for him uh but send somebody out who's actually good at that stuff because it's just it's just not my strong suit well look uh I think that you're overstating that I mean yes your strong suit is being a historian but you're not a bad interview I'm having a good time hey 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war party play all your savings away look up Roberts and Roberts at rb. that's rrbi doco hey y'all you should sign up for my substack it's Scott Horton show. substack domcom and if you do that you'll get the interviews a day before everybody else but not only that they'll be free of commercials how do you like that pretty good huh Scott Horton show. substack do.com hey y'all libertas bella.com is where you get Scott Horton Show and libertarian Institute shirts sweatshirts mugs and stickers and things including the great top lobsters designs as well see that way it says on your shirt why you're so smart libertas Bella from the same great folks who bring you ammo.com for all your ammunition needs too that's libertas bella.com hey y'all got kids or nephews or anything you know about the Tuttle twins books right libertar lessons about life liberty truth and the state it's really great stuff and hey did you guys know I'm a Tuttle twin or well I'm a character in their world now skater Scott 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if you let your mama have a mug she might run off with the whole bag Mundo's coffee it's really good make sure and click the link in the margin at Scot hon.org but so now let me ask you though do I have my timeline right again I'm not an expert on World War II I really am not um but I have my timeline right that the WAN toy conference was in what January February of 1942 so this is something that came up when I talked with Buchanan you know I think I didn't even quite have it through my head that I just thought that gez if there hadn't been a war in the west then the Nazis and the commies would have ended up oil and water going to war anyway in Poland they're sharing a border in Poland now only the worst can happen at some point kind of thing and he was like no I don't know I don't think so and and then this was his ultimate argument against the Holocaust it wasn't he was saying that it didn't happen he was saying it didn't have to happen at all that in fact the Holocaust was caused by by the war no war no Holocaust and this is you know what Timothy Snyder from Yale calls the bloodlands is this unfortunate area including the pale of settlement between Germany and Russia where if these two goliaths are fighting then all the little Davids in the middle are going to get crushed right like this it's um and and did and so but then and I've been writing about Ukraine and there's a whole backstory to the Nazis of Ukraine which includes their participation with the Germans in perpetrating the Holocaust what they call the Holocaust of bullets before the uh exhaust pipes and gas Chambers it was just they went around massacring everybody round up the Jews drag them to the edge of town and shoot them all and dump them in a pit and they did this they killed something like 800,000 Ukrainian Jews and I don't know how many polls tens and tens of thousands of polls as well um and then I don't know what all happened in the baltics and in bellarus and in Poland and all of that I do know from a um I have a few friends who have looked deeply into this and one of them was telling me that uh a big part of it was there were very few Jews or not very few but relatively few Jews in Germany it was like 3% of the population or something like that and I I believe 30,000 of them were had already been put in concentration camps or something before the war had ever broke out um but then when they got to Poland there were Jews everywhere millions of them and so then as you're saying they're taking responsibil responsibility for all these people including millions of people who they absolutely despise and so as you were saying before they're definitely going to the bottom of the list when it comes to getting fed at the at the uh prisoner Camp uh compared to I guess polls or whoever else but what else can you tell us again I don't want you to spoil your whole uh upcoming podcast series for us but I do want to know what you know and what you think about the Holocaust and you know the deliberate part the death camps and the gas Chambers and the massacres and whatever that took place during that time in fact I guess one more thing is I've heard it said that it' be amazing it'd be amazing if 6 million Jews didn't get killed in that war considering 40 million people did and they were the targets of the Nazis in that way look we have German generals Diaries from literally from September 1939 like the month that Poland was invaded we have German generals Diaries complaining about Jews being rounded up into Barns and shot on Moss right so like there shouldn't be any doubt about about that and I don't know how anybody who understands the you know the third rights uh leadership that their view of of the Jews would have any uh would have any problem understanding that you know it's something that we have ample we have ample proof of that the Jews were massacred you know uh now in terms of whether it could have happened without um but and I'll say one other thing is that a lot of people were massacred over there and so the people who insist that the Jews weren't massacred like okay so you're saying that the non the the the the people that the national socialists hate the most were the one group that like didn't get massacred that didn't feel like the brunt of their wrath that just makes no sense right million you have you have all these poles being killed ukrainians everybody else of course the Jews were massacred and when you you know when you look at uh the third reich's attitude toward them of course they were specifically targeted um I think the the more interesting point uh is you know the one you brought up the one Buchanan Pat brought up which is could this have taken place without the without the cover of a World War in which Millions were already being killed you know or and or would the Germans have felt uh the sense of you know Siege and the walls closing in to the point that they would shoot the hostages you know there's a sort of like the the popular understanding of of these events right is that like the the national socialists were in a pub in Munich in 1920 to and they wanted to kill all the Jews and so they had to plot first we have to take over the government of Germany then we have to start a big war and conquer all the areas where the Jews are so that we can like that that was like the point of of all this and I don't think that's the case I think it was an outgrowth of the war and it's it's you know look you could say the same thing about uh about the like say the Armenian Genocide does it let the Turks off the hook to say that if we hadn't been if there hadn't been a world war that everybody was focused on that was you know Millions were being killed that that wouldn't have happened you know that if all of a sudden the global press erupted with this massacre of the Armenians that was taking place because that was really kind of the only thing going on or whatever that it would have been treated differently or just maybe not happen that way at all uh I don't think that's you know necessarily true but that's that's definitely worth that's worth thinking about you know you know and I mean the fact is before 1941 when the Germans invaded the Soviet Union most of the Jews were not under their control most of the Jews were in the eastern part of Poland in Ukraine places that were still under the control of the Soviet Union and so that they didn't even have access to these people and so then the question becomes and again like uh there's there's no question that Hitler's antipathy toward communism and uh the Soviet Union went way back before 1941 uh but there's also you read John tolan's biography of uh of Hitler and there's a lot of interesting stuff in there uh about you know attitudes toward the Soviet Union were becoming at least somewhat more ambivalent by like in the late 30s not that uh you know not you know it's not to say that the molotov ribbon truck pact was uh you know a reflection of like a real daytont between these powers or anything like that but it was starting to shift a little bit and you were starting to see discussions being had behind the scenes uh among thirri leaders uh that you know maybe the capitalist world is really like the the the true enemy here maybe the Soviet Union has more in common with us than we actually think especially you know as again like when you know the purges in the 19 in the late 1930s under Stalin um you know fell very heavily on the Jews in the in the Soviet Union I mean very heavily on the Jews in the Communist party and just in general and uh you know part of that was just you know Stalin getting rid of a lot of the uh original people um and a lot of them happened to be Jews a lot of it had to do with sort of the spread and the rise of uh Zionist ideology and uh going after those people but if you look at for example like um like the historian Yuri slesin talks about this I think Timothy Snyder actually talks about this in bloodlands how if you go to like 1935 40% of all the high high ranking officers in the nkvd 75% of all nkvd officers out of the Kiev office dealing with Ukraine were Jewish you go after the purge so you go to like 1940 those numbers are all down in the single digits like a lot of times two 3% or something like more reflective of just their numbers in the population and so after that starts to happen you do see some change uh in the third re's discussions about like maybe what the nature of the Soviet Union at least now under Stalin really is and so there's some question I think about whether that Invasion would have taken place only some question you know because there are a million reasons for them to fight each other for sure um but when you go to the summer of 19 the like here's I think the really one of the this is the really interesting question is would they have invaded in the summer of 1941 right that's really like the interesting one if they had not if if Britain had made peace in 1940 would they have invaded the Soviet Union in specifically in 1941 you know I think that if you look at their situation Germany's situation in 1941 they have millions of men in the field that they can't send back home to go to work because they're still at War Britain will not uh will not make peace they're bombing us so we can't demobilize but also you can't just keep millions of people in the field indefinitely just economically you can't do that politically and socially you can't do that and so we've got this giant army in the field that we can't demobilize uh that is Battle hardened and this communist threat to the east that we all kind of know we're probably going to have to fight sometime anyway and they're getting stronger all the time uh and so what better time than now right and so I think like the the pressure of the continued war with the British may have been the say the proximate cause or justification for uh you can add on to that that you know they they were thinking and we know this again from their internal discussions that one of the reasons the British were keeping the war going is that they were hoping maybe eventually the Soviet Union would jump in and then they could hit it from both sides so let's just take that off the table and then maybe the British will we we'll stop all this and so if it hadn't happened in 1941 you know if the Germans had like look again go to 1940 when Hitler made his final appeal if he had uh uh if if the British had made peace and the ger the German Army everybody started to demobilize it's not as if you can just overnight decide you're going to invade the Soviet Union one day that's another full mobilization that's a it's a big process to do something like that and it's a question whether it would have happened at all just because you know in if you if you they they couldn't have caught the Soviet Union off guard the way they did in 1941 except under the specific circumstances that existed if they had tried that when peace when there had been peace for 2 or 3 years in 1944 or something it would have had a very different outcome and so it's a question whether it even would have would have begun in the first place and so you know again all these These are these are counterfactuals that you the ultimate response to all of them is uh you know you're just you're engaging in fantasy and all we really know is that Hitler did invade and he did kill these people but when when the outcome was was so horrible I think it's I think it's fruitful to engage in those discussions yeah I mean here's one is that if they went to war then at least the Western democracies would have been there for the Jews to escape to or maybe even the Germans might have transferred them to the West send them to France rather than just murder them all yeah because that's that is another misconception that people have is um you know it people really struggle with this because again they think that it morally relativizes this you know the the ultimate outcome which it doesn't um but killing these people was not I mean this is it's undeniable when you read the internal Communications and discussions and Diaries of the German leadership killing these people was not their first option it was not like their first choice you know they were going to deport him to Madagascar or some place like that but then the British blockade prevented it and close that off well we're going to conquer the Soviet Union and we're going to send them all east of of the Ural Mountains but then obviously they got turned back and that wasn't working and I mean that's not to say that when you when you point that out that's not to say that they love the Jews and didn't want to you know anything but but nice things to happen to them I mean they wanted to like violently expel these people from their territory so that's not what it's saying they want to ethnically cleanse these people from Europe sure uh but ethnic cleansing doesn't you know necessarily have to uh have to turn into genocide well and look even even if they didn't want to go through the expense of building a railroad to France and and send them to the West still at least some of them could have escaped to the West right even if the Germans weren't cooperating in in that even if the Germans were doing their Holocaust there would have at least been somewhere to go if they could sneak through a forest or climb over a mountain or somehow get through you know Austria Baker's book he quotes this he he quotes this author that a or he quotes a conversation that an author back at the time uh with a friend uh who thought that you know he was Mak his friend was making the case that uh that England ought to at least entertain Church Hill's peace offers because he said that you know once a war starts the thing to do is to end it as soon as possible and that should be the only thing that you know anybody involved in a war is concerned with and is uh so yes I would I would negotiate with Hitler and so the author who's uh the other side of the conversation says well but you can't negotiate with Hitler see because you can't trust anything he says and so his friend says yeah maybe but a day of peace is a day of peace and if he goes back on his word tomorrow what have we lost we can always restart the killing again and that's sort of how I feel about it yeah makes perfect sense and see it's worse though because back where we started is this is now the founding myth of the American Empire and now everybody's Hitler so even though Hitler is Hitler and you know what maybe sometimes you can appease people but definitely not this methhead right he's crazy he wants to conquer the whole world he's so out of control that you know what really the lesson of Munich is we should have launched a preemptive war in 1936 or whatever it is that they teach in high school okay fine but now that applies to every enemy of the American Empire nobody can be appeased ever and you know what's interesting about this too is that they'll also teach you in school or at least back when I was in school that this is all woodro Wilson's fault or if they don't specify that but American entry into World War I is what tipped the advantage towards Britain and France so badly that they were able to put the all their punitive measures against Germany in the Versa treaty and strip them of all their outlying ter territories including access to Danzig and all the rest of this stuff and led to the rise of the Nazi Reich in resentment and it's in the Great Book Wilson's War by James Powell that Hitler began every speech denouncing the traitors of 1918 who were you know and it wasn't even the militarists who signed the treaty woodro Wilson insisted that only a Democrat was good enough to sign a treaty with him so the guys who weren't responsible for the war were the ones who had to sign the peace treaty and so then we're the scapegoats and um and yet even though everybody knows that it was the verside treaty that led to these consequences still you can't appease anyone even when you know it's kind of sort of your fault like say for example overthrowing the government of Ukraine and provoking a war with Russia and you know that you kind of did that but still nope as Biden would put it he's FDR Putin is Hitler and he cannot be AAS we have to fight yeah and the parallels in that situation are actually pretty remarkable uh and when I say that it's not to say that and people who know my views on that issue know that I'm not saying that uh the Russians are are Nazis or that Putin is Hitler but just when you look at the Historical circumstances that led to the to to the situation is you had a war quote unquote with the Cold War but but you know yet a conflict end in a way that uh allowed uh the losing side to feel like they were betrayed uh and misled into um laying down their arms at a time you know when when they thought the other side was uh offering to be more magnanimous than they were going to be they both go through a decade of just total cultural uh humanitarian and and economic destruction you know in Russia in the 90s Germany and the 20s as the rest of the you know the the Victorious Powers quote unquote use their country as a playground basically and a looting operation and then you have a guy come along who takes power and puts the the legitimacy of the state back together and uh you know all of a sudden things are at least stable and actually like kind of prosperous and the people have a lot of a lot of loyalty to a guy like who dragged their country out of that situation and they also noticed the fact that it's asum as this guy took power as soon as we started to get back on our feet and started to reassert ourselves on the international level that all of you turned on us again and you've been you you you've been after us ever since and you know look the the Russians whether or not you agree the Russians Vladimir Putin I guarantee you and you know you talk to people who have spoken to him I've spoken to people who have spoken to him directly about this uh you know that he felt backed into a corner where invading Ukraine was was the only thing that he could reasonably do you don't have to agree with that but that's how he viewed the situation the Germans uh you know in by the time you get up to excuse me um 1941 they felt that way about you know being under siege and feeling like they were the ones under attack and respond responding to what everybody else was doing not that they were the active agent that everybody else is responding to and so when you have those situations you know it's not that you have to agree with them or say that well they they you know made the the only reasonable choice or that they were okay to invade or or anything like that it's just it's not about that you know it's that you have to look like the goal here is not the goal here should have been to get as few people killed as possible right that should have been the goal and sometimes it's unavoidable sometimes a war happens and there's nothing you could have done that wouldn't have led to a similar outcome but I think that whether or not that's the case it's always like the only it's it's always the only discussion worth having in the aftermath you know and I know that after the guy in the house kills his wife and kids and then kills himself the only you know alternative scenario that anybody's going to want to hear is the cop who was saying we should have sent the SWAT team in right at the beginning like I told you and that's the only thing anybody's going to want to hear nobody's going to want to hear that we should have been more conciliatory to that guy or maybe like nobody's want to hear that and and I understand obviously but you know these are I mean this is this is why we have a discipline like history where you know uh you know it's spe it's supposed to be and it does serve these purposes when it comes to historical events that are not you know part of the founding myth uh is that we're supposed to have this discipline set off that's not a part of that you know hyper emotional like in really invested uh perspective that people who directly involved are going to have this is a little sort of a corded off area where you are allowed to ask any question you want and look at this from any angle you want to try to see if there's something here that we could learn that you know that that otherwise we wouldn't hey you know whatl we can that in the Pacific in the same damn War we could talk all about the various incentives behind Japan attacking Pearl Harbor whether FDR turned a blind eye or not leave his side for the moment but just the question of the politics of power and economics and oil and steel in the Pacific that's what caused that war and nobody's apologizing for Tojo you know he forc March my great uncle F him right but like so that nobody thinks that that war happened because Japan was evil and that's all you need to know about it yeah and it's actually you know I I thought it was very interesting that uh you know all the people who are so worked up about my criticism of Churchill um you know you can you could probably get away with tearing down a Churchill statue uh if your Manifesto said you were upset about the Bengal famine or or something like that you know but uh and those people wouldn't have been at least nearly as upset as they as they pretended to be you got remember to bring that up next time you know yeah I didn't we didn't get to 1943 so yeah well so I mean that's the thing too you know go ahead and mention that talk about gonna talk huh will you talk about the Bangladesh thing uh you know I I only honestly so here's here's sort of my process when I when I uh start podcast like this right well there's two things I would say um the first thing I do is I go out and I get all the mainstream sort of like survey course level uh books that you know if you haven't read these then you're not really serious about the topic and I read all of those and sometimes I read them over and over until I get to the point where you know at least the timeline of events is firmly set in my mind and then I can go out and uh you know go on tangents and read about specific uh events more deeply and I have like that scaffolding to to hang everything on uh once I've done that I start working on the first episode and you know this the first episode of this series that that I'm working on now about World War II uh it takes it's you know it's about the the modern history of the German peoples their position in Europe the history of Prussia um and the history of the national Wars in Europe and Germany up through like the aftermath of the first world war and that's pretty much all I've been reading and thinking about for like the last six months or so and so the Bengal famine is you know it's it's something I know again just like the survey course level of and there's dispute about the British responsibility for it uh I have not looked that deeply into the controversy to be honest like um partly because I'm not there yet in this podcast not at 194 43 uh but also partly you know the whole I mean the the name of the podcast is uh enemy the Germans War um because I think it would be interesting to try to you know one of the things I've always tried to do in my podcast and people who like it or don't like it usually uh usually at least call this a noble Endeavor is I try to see I try to put in the shoes of everybody in the story you know and um I did that with the Israel Palestine podcast I did that with the Jim Jones podcast where I really like forced myself into the shoes of this Psychopathic suicidal drug addicted cult leader who led 900 people innocent people to their deaths right and I and I I I felt like to tell the story properly I had to get inside the heads of these people and understand why how their decisions made sense to them at the time and everybody thinks that's great everybody thinks that's a noble Endeavor and my decision ision to do this upcoming series um was sort of okay well everybody likes that approach I'm GNA I'm going to challenge you on that you know I'm GNA take basically the devil you know the Hitler and the national socialists have replaced the devil and his Legions of demons uh in like the modern secular Consciousness I'm gonna I'm gonna do the same thing that I've been doing with Jim Jones with the Israel Palestine podcast and everything I did it with Lieutenant Cali and and the Meli Massacre uh and I'm going to do that with the thing that you know uh that really is going to push your tolerance of that uh to to the farthest point and so you know that that's what it is it's the uh it's the story of World War II from the German perspective and so something like the Bengal famine I'm sure I'll mention it in there it'll come up you know in terms of the way people in Germany were were uh viewing Winston Churchill and and in the British and so forth but but yeah I I I know enough to discourse on it right now man this thing is going to be something else do you have in mind like the whole thing is sort of storyboarded out about how many episodes it'll be and that kind of thing yes but um you don't want to tell me that's okay no no no not that I don't want to tell you it's that uh you know I thought maybe the Israel Palestine podcast would be like two episodes and it turned into six right yeah and so I'm being serious about it like um this will probably be about six or seven episodes six or seven long episodes and uh you know and the the the thesis of which is simply is very simple which is you know it's that you know the the the the story of the second world war where you have the Germans who are a normal uh people a cultural superpower in Europe that suddenly turned into demons for 15 years and then after that they actually went back to normal and they're normal to that that's very obviously a myth these are people people did these things and we need to understand how and why people would do these things and to do that you have to look at the situation through their eyes and people can be delusional people can be paranoid people can have bad information all of all of these things they can have experiences that that you know make resentment and Vengeance like The Guiding forces in their in their Consciousness it lead them to do terrible things but Jim Jones was a person you know um all of any any any Palestinian suicide bomber or heartless like IDF uh General um you know was an innocent three-year-old kid who didn't even know there was a conflict you know yet at one point in in time and so to try to understand like how did human beings in their in their time and through their own eyes uh get to into a situation that is like such so extreme and so outside like you know the uh the the the realm of experience of those of us who are just you know going to work and living Our Lives yeah man it's going to be great you know it would be really interesting I'd like to hear you and I'd like to hear your take on popot and the camir Rouge next year yeah I mean that would end up I you know again it's one of those things that I've you know I've read a lot about in works that are not specifically about it and then I've read maybe three or four books specifically about it so so not deep research or anything but my I can tell you my initial impression is that a lot of it would be about the Americans yeah oh I know talk about domino theory I'll tell you who's knocking over dominoes over there um even just knowing I know the bare minimum about it and it's too much it's what a horror show um man all right well listen you know I listen to everything that you do even though I don't even have time to listen to podcast but every time I'm in the car I'm listening to your stuff um you do such great work blacks and Jews Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem Jim Jones and the people's Temple uh of course uh the oh the antih humans boy if you're a nightmar is having time type don't listen to the antih humans by martyr made holy moly communism is you're not anti-communist enough out there young man you hear me be more anti-communist um and there's more which ones am I leaving out you've got some real greats well you know the one that is uh it's not about Russians and Germans or Israelis and Palestinians shooting at each other kind of went off the off the beaten path uh is number 20 the underground Spirit which is about the parallel biographies and and the related work of uh friedi n and Fodor dovi that's probably my favorite episode it's a lot of people's favorite episode but it is it is different but I really like it and so oh that's cool I don't think I've heard that one man well I know yeah I would I would I I always ask people to to make time for that one because um it's probably the only one that you know I you I'm I'm the type of person when I come out of any interview like this one uh or any time I finish an episode I just shake my head like oh my God that was terrible yeah the the underground spirit is uh is really the only one that I don't feel that way about so I always ask people to listen to that oh that's cool well listen n you're great man that's why everybody loves your stuff so much so including me so uh by the way I really appreciate you doing the show today it's been great anytime like I always say man anytime for you all right you guys that is Daryl Cooper on every podcast platform especially substack is Martyr made the Scott Horton Show in anti-war radio can be heard on kpfk 90.7 FM in La APS radio.com antiwar.com Scot hon.org and libertarian institute.org