The DWS Podcast | Brisbane's Big Gamble

[Music] hi everybody John Dixon here uh after our recent 30th Anniversary um looking at new ways of communicating with everyone and uh this is our first podcast so hopefully you enjoy this session today and uh perhaps we'll look to doing a few in the future um uh it's a continuation I guess of the articles that I write in DWS monthly magazine um which I I thank you for your feedback on those um as you will know I don't mind having a chat uh particularly if it's about the industry I love and it's been my life for 50 years um but we we we have got some emerging um challenges particularly around the casino and the downturn in the economy and I thought to perhaps uh have a bit of insight into the gaming space particularly uh I'd uh launched this first podcast with Justine Channing now you you probably uh some of you will know Justine and some of you interact with Justine more regularly than you probably realize as the editor of the drop magazine but also Justine has been a key figure in the U Australian gaming landscape for more years than she cares to uh mention and and uh certainly in some of the largest venues and has a great insight into uh gaming and and the future of gaming in Australia and and so it's great to to have her Justin with me today to um talk about the potential impact of the casino in Queensland and other things regulatory in New South Wales and so forth so thanks for joining me today Justine great to have you with us thank you um you might just as an intro uh tell us a little bit about how you came to be involved in this uh crazy hospitality industry sure like like specialize in gaming more particularly I guess yeah like many people in this industry I had absolutely no plans whatsoever to move into it um I was originally an archaeologist so something a little bit different um but worked my way through University and clubs and hotels when I was younger uh and kind of just got stuck into it because it's quite a fascinating industry with lots of variety lots of different jobs you can do lots of avenues um to Senior Management and lots of different markets that you can work in so it's great so I've been a club and Club manager I've been a gaming manager for uh many many years probably close to 30 now you call me a legend legend make me sound old but um realistically it's um but it's uh yeah worked as a club gaming and marketing manager I've worked with Hotel groups I've worked with casinos I've worked in Australia and overseas in Europe um I've worked with Aristocrat and IGT as a product specialist so I've got that background in that as well so it's that's what I mean by there's lots of variety in our industry there's always something different you can do so obviously being editor drop magazine gives you an insight into what's unfolding a fair bit in the club industry generally across certainly does because I've got to keep on top of what's happening in all states yes um and we also now have quite a bit of a readership coming in from uh America and Europe so I kind of have to keep an eye on everything that's happening over there too and there's some lessons for us in what's happening in in America in particular yeah good so it's interesting yeah and um as I said we've got the casino opening here on the uh I think the 29th of August I think it's is the advertised date um there's a lot of conjecture about what impact it may or may not have on the club industry in Queensland uh some seem to think it won't have much impact uh others seem to think it'll have a lot um and I guess it will set some new standards of not only for gaming environment but potentially for FNB as we know there's going to be a large um FNB content within that um complex itself uh it'll be a destination and its own right and so it'll be interesting to see um there there has been a fair bit of research done I mean if have you heard anything yourself from the Queensland Market as to whether they think it'll be an on event or some will think it' be big issue I think most people think it's going to make a bit of a change initially everyone's going to want to go I mean most people even in our industry are going to want to go and have a look yes so I think the first six months are going to be people just tripping off for a dinner to check out some of the new food venues yes not entirely sure it's going to be a big issue from a gaming perspective initially the market that they seem to be going what you what makes you say that particularly well I think the market they're going for is the trick I mean in clubs um you tend to have a slightly older Market maybe 50 plus yes what they're going for is the Instagram Market they're going for the 20s and 30 somethings they're going for the special night out Market okay and in clubs we're just the good value proposition right and we have a different type of clientele doesn't mean our clientele won't go and visit those Casino the casino but it certainly I don't think is going to make too big a difference in a lot of ways you're just going to have to sharpen your pencils and that's just what I was going to say do you think it really will it'll it'll put a greater focus on the clubs that you know present their facilities a lot better uh provide better service um uh it it'll it could have an impact on clubs that don't do that that don't lift their game to some definely and I think one of the biggest issues is they're going to probably have rolling openings for a lot of their food and beverage venues yes they won't just open everything all 50 restaurants won't be open on day one um so they're going to open you know 20 in the first month and 10 in the next month so they keep giving people a reason to come back yeah so I think for the first 6 months you just need to kind of close your eyes and make sure your place is neat and tidy and you know you're being nice to your customers it's nice as you're allowed to be yes um and making sure that you know you've got all your ducks in a row as far as Staffing levels you making sure people are getting personalized attention that's where casinos tend to be very very good is making sure that that experience is a personal one and I think with clubs we're pretty well situated to to be on that personal level with our customers we know them all we know Mr Smith walks through the door every Monday morning at 10 o00 we all say hello so that's something the casino will be struggling to build we already have that yeah right and we need to make sure we keep reinforcing it oh absolutely and that's that's been difficult obviously in recent years with a significant staff turnover that we've had in the industry um and we're fighting at the moment with the casino spending more money advertising to attract staff than we are to attract customers um there probably starting to have a little bit of impact on recruitment again we found that in the last 3 or 4 weeks even particularly so um it'll be interesting to see how I mean this is something that happens quite a lot to the for the clubs that are near the casino in C both casinos we tend in those venues to employ slightly older staff we fit our staff to our market right the casino will be going for 20 somethings that look good Y which is well and good that's what that's the market they're trying to attract right um but in in clubs you've got an opportunity to spread your recruitment a little bit wider go for people that are uh easy to talk to people that are the the girl or boy next door rather than the flashy Instagram host Y and it tends to work better y it's interesting you say that because we have I think generally tended to employ the younger people in the Queensland Market but uh I wrote an article in the last DWS newsletter about um you know we we we need to be focusing a little bit more on that mature Market uh they do have a lot of advantages for us in terms of stability they might need a bit more training but the reliability we know is in some instances they need more training but most of the time we have in our heads Vision that older people struggle with technology but my mom's 81 and she Googles everything I say to check that I'm correct so it's not really you know anyone who's 80 and under these days has probably if they thanks for excluding me there out of that group TR probably they've worked in an office they've worked with computers yes so it's not really a big stretch you're just teaching them you know a till system that's not complicated it's just pushing buttons right y um they might just take you know 2 hours to catch up instead of an hour you know anyone older than about 30 has no trouble talking to people who are 60 or people who are 18 it's an interesting take out of the the casino that really haven't thought too much about I guess uh is that re you know it's about recognizing our market and and matching our uh our staff more to our Market because we do we do struggle in a lot of clubs with young people struggling to say thank you smile at people turn up you know turn up yes um you know I have been it has been said to me in the past why should I smile at customers when they won't smile at me you know and that sort of sort of approach so that's it's an interesting takeaway I guess from this discussion about uh everybody's complaining about star issures all the time although it has got better in the last 12 months there's no doubt there are clubs out there that deal with that younger market and they need the younger staff um to appeal to that market but not not every Club does and and at the end of the day for most people who go to a club it's about the convenience yes they don't want to have to drive 5 km and try and find a parking spot they know they can go to their local Club at 6:00 and find a spot out the front in the car park and walk right in the door up to The Bistro Y and not have to line up for half an hour y um the casino is going to be packed initially so that convenience will be a plus and you've got to drive into the city yep uh and uh I remember when they were digging the hole which I think was reported to be the biggest hole ever been built in Queensland apart from the mines um and know I remember thinking it' be hell of a long way down there in a car trying to find a car park on the 14th floor in the hole in the ground and so that I guess so you know trying to identify what the pluses and minuses are potentially for for the club industry so we could say parking is a unique Advantage for us absolutely um we do perhaps probably need to look at uh recognizing that they're going for the younger market so we should we be looking for uh more Mature Staffing issue around that as well and the reinforcement obviously of the familiarity and customer service that I think clubs have always done well it's I don't know how you find it but I find in Queensland uh the further I get out of Brisbane uh the better the customer service is and the more familiarity it is with staff in Regional clubs particular must Adit country Queens country clubs that I've been well even to be honest with you in the Gold Coast I come up here quite a bit right with family I'm almost an honorary queenslander these days with family on the go Gold Coast all the clubs there that I've been to have got exceptional service and you know they're really careful about their customers I've had um people who walk in the door and they've spotted I've Got a New South Wales license and they start talking to me about where I'm from and you know those sorts of things just make you feel welcome as soon as you walk in the door it's a big plus yeah Casino won't have time to do that stuff they won't even be focused on that stuff yeah I I just happened to be down in in Melbourne just a few weeks ago doing some corporate governs with the RSL Network down there and and visiting a few clubs particularly in that in a Melbourne area you you do find there's a bit of a coldness about the uh the interaction whether that's just Melbourne or city but um it's you just don't feel as comfortable I guess no I think Melbourne clubs are really hotels yes everything in Victoria is a hotel it's run that way yes um the the venue set out that way they've got a lot of restrictions down there too which makes life a bit bit hard um but they do tend to be a little bit different they they're more like a you know a hotel you go into a club up there you've got fluo shirts coming in at 3: in the afternoon you've got totally different crowd you don't tend to find that in a club in in New South Wales or Queensland as much and I know talking about Victoria probably wasn't you know part of the focus but um it is interesting because of the way gaming was introduced down there most of the clubs that I get involved with down there um don't have gaming IP because they contracted out the management of their clubs and so as it's it's a big stumbling block for Club development when they don't have and I find in Victoria the managers um while they're very very good operational managers when it comes to gaming they don't know what they don't know um so it is a struggle for them they've never had to pick a game never had and they take a long time to find one that they think will work for their venue um and they have a limited range of product down there too they don't get the same range of product from Aristocrat and IGT and Konami Etc that we do up here or down in New South Wales yeah and they also one of the other limiting factors there was the the fact that government allows the local councils to have more involvement in where gaming goes so uh and unfortun other councils have got um green members and they're very small councils and you know so it it doesn't work well for the industry down there okay coming back to I guess the Queensland Casino opening and uh the potential impact that may uh have on the uh Queensland Club environment uh and there have been quite a few reports done over time uh particularly the cergy rep Port which was um uh commission by clubs Queensland and there were two versions of that there was a version done a few years ago and a more recent version um and that did indicate that there would be uh a decline in gaming in in the Queensland Club industry uh sener report the general consensus again because of the uh the industry is quite um uh say there are some Polar Opposites I think to some extent there are some who think the Synergy report was far too conservative there are others who think the Synergy report was um uh you know didn't go anywhere near as severe as it should have been um but the syy report said that and again it was coming back to what is it going to cost the community I guess because obviously the club industry supports the community to a huge extent so any loss of Revenue and and profit in clubs is going to impact on the community contribution and there'll be a direct correlationship there uh Synergy report uh said round about 9 million they thought was going to be lost to community organizations through the introduction of Casino um but there have been other commentaries as well who've we've pitched it as high as 17 million that could be lost to the community in a 12-month period after the casino opens um and and different researchers have taken different approaches at it um in the DWS office we took the approach of let's look at what the casino needs to earn to pay for itself and and what the budget expectations are going to be for the investment and we worked it that way and um so we we came around a much higher figure and we estimated maybe as much as $40 million could be lost to the community industry in the first year um uh and so it you know that that will be the price of community pays whether or not the casino itself will offset that it's hard to say no I don't think the casino will offset it at all no they've got shareholders to worry about they're not interested in the local community and I think that's the Avenue the clubs particularly with the elections coming up I guess it's a story we need to keep repeating in cluband it's so much uh Community workers down in clubs that goes unrecognized and unaccounted for although clubs Queensland have got a very good system now of asking clubs to report the community cont contributions to try and build a picture of what what the Comm the community is contributing to the state uh I I think the concern might be for smaller clubs that don't have the nice amenities that don't have the range of uh facilities um may impact them on them more do you think or not uh yes or no smaller clubs tend to have more loyal um customers in a lot of ways because they're smaller they're not the focus for anybody's marketing campaigns you know they don't to have big big punters that the casinos are going to be chasing um I find my experience I work with a a club pretty regularly that's not far actually two clubs that aren't far from the Star and Crown Casino in Sydney and ones a medium well they're both kind of medium to largest clubs they're not small by by any means but they're not big clubs they don't have huge marketing budgets and they both tend to do quite well because they focus on what they're good at themselves right and to be honest with you working with those sorts of venues the casino wants to pick up customers that come from further away they want to be able to go and pick somebody up in a bus from the Sunshine Coast and bring them down to Brisbane to stay overnight it's like containerizing back the next day so they get them to come down for two days and an overnight stay whereas if you're local you're just going to go like I have um customers at the club that I one club that I work at that's about 3 km away from the casino um and they might might go there once a month just for something different and that's it yeah because it's too far to go again we come back to the parking it's too hard to park um they get the the other thing that's really important and I keep forgetting to mention it when I talk about Casino disruption is that if you're a top tier player in a medium-sized Club you're getting treated really well by that club right if you make that same spend at a casino you wouldn't even crack the third tier right okay right so you're special at your own club you're not so special in a casino unless you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollar literally right so and they would much prefer to grab one of those $100,000 customers from further up or down the coast ship them in for a day or two rather than just having them go for an hour or so I have one venue um we don't anymore because the customers retired up here actually um but we used to send the customer down to Crown Casino in Melbourne um about once every six weeks for a weekend right so that they didn't go to the star right okay which was around the corner okay so you can do some quite clever things to get around it but you know always remember if you're treating your tier top tier players extremely well they won't get that service because they're not as big a player in a casino and that's you know that's a really interesting point isn't it cuz the the the fear that gets spoken about in the Queensland environment is that the casino is going to Target our top Hunters they will but you won't see it but yeah right so what what they do is they send out their essentially their VIP or Player Development hosts rather than VIP hosts two separate things in a casino so they send their Player Development people out and with their business cards and they'll sit in your Venue just in plain clothes you won't know who they are and they'll look around to see who's betting you know $5 a go Max bet Y and they'll make it start a a chat with those people they'll start a chat with those people and then um introduce themselves say I work at the casino why don't you come visit I'm there on Saturday nights here's my card give me a call I'll organize for you to get special parking yeah right and that's why that's the way they'll pick up those those bigger customers of yours but again if you're treating them well in your Venue it becomes all about convenience so those customers won't be going to the casino every night unless they live really close yeah because I think the point you're really making there what we might call you know um high-end pters in clubland would not be considered high-end punters in Casino environment so uh and I guess that brings us to our loyalty program to some extent and yes um you know how loyalty folk uh program is focusing on on our big supporters in in the gaming room uh and a lot of clubs have been relooking at that as well I think a few years ago we realized that we probably were uh it was all very well to reward everybody for buying a beer and a you know and uh a snitch all but because we w't make any money out of those to any great extent anyway with the Alti program was a bit skewed and we weren't sort of um perhaps recognizing the contribution that that Gamers were one of them one of them well I wouldn't call it a mistake but one of the things we've traditionally always done is we've given our tea levels different discount levels and with discounts it's just a race to the bottom if you start competing with a casino yeah they've got a bigger budget so you really need to avoid that with with casinos you need competing against casinos you need to go personal right right you need to know that your top tier players are you know follow the Brisbane Suns or um love going to the Opera things like that and you need to reward them somehow with things that are special to them on a personal level you need to know when their wedding anniversary is y what the husband likes to eat so that he gets a special meal when he comes for the wedding anniversary of their dog absolutely you need to know all that information um you know you need to also know things like um are they going into Hospital are they're planning on going on a holiday cuz if they vanish for a week and you start making the Assumption they at the casino um you know you're going to get you're going to trip yourself up so one thing we don't do enough of in our industry and I think we need to do particularly with those bigger players is if they don't turn up for a week or so and you don't know that they're on holidays make a phone call yeah find out where they are I had a customer again same Club not far from a casino she hadn't been in for 2 weeks she was a $350,000 a month customer wow right so she was a target for a casino and she stopped coming for about a week or two made a phone call found out what was going on her parents were sick and she'd had to look after them so we took over delivering the food for the parents to give her a break yep right so again that's that's personalized service for a top tier player that every Club can manage yes and then we need to be aware of these things and you know they're important to our business we need to make sure that they understand that cuz I think when we talk about loyalty the first first thing we think about is the level of discount uh I think what you're suggesting is that when we when we're looking at what we do provide to our uh bigger supporters is that it may be other services correct or that connection um that um that's more important than perhaps the you know the discount on their snitzel or yeah whatever may be and you know we do we do things that are a bit of a you know extra raffle tickets and you know that's all well and good but it's it just means there's extra raffle tickets in the pile sophisticated Gamers understand that they're not going to turn up for a raffle because they've got an extra 50 tickets you know you really need to start thinking outside the box I'm not talking about you know your top 200 players I'm talking about your top 20 20 yeah okay um and then also too we need to remember that those those smaller players that lower tier yeah actually contribute significant a significant amount of money to our to our venue not just in food and beverage but also in gaming the churn Market absolutely and you know they need to be comfortable turning up again for them it comes back to that convenience getting a good good meal good value good service and then they'll go in and they'll put 100 200 bucks in a poker machine I'm getting a sense that you don't see necessarily the casino as a major issue for the for Queensland Club environment for the clubs that do it right and understand what they need to do to be competitive yes look I think to be honest with you initially it's going to be an issue for everybody yes because people are all going to want to go we all recognize that the first 6 months is probably going to be y uh certainly different every casino is the same you know they got top end restaurants they got flash sushi places they've got fantastic patisseries they have all these flash things it's a special night out after a while it just becomes special it's a birthday night or a Christmas night it's not a Friday night yeah not every Friday night and I think too we need to start looking at some of our marketing we tend to sorry guys but in our industry we tend to communicate with our customers like their men two for one steak on Friday Friday nights just facts right guys love facts so we tend to feed the information to them that way if you're advertising something in your brro it needs to be too tired to cook bring your family here and let us cook for for you let us do the dishes that kind of stuff so it needs to be more female oriented cuz Mom's the one who makes the decision about where that wallet goes not dad and I remember in you know when we we started long time ago now in strategic planning and so forth uh and the research we did we fast realized that the club industry in Queensland and across the country I guess is a female Centric business absolutely but the problem was it was built by BLS for BLS and uh so the conversion to realizing it was a female business a real Challenge and and of course particularly in the football environment and I was going to say that it actually changed um quite a few years ago yeah probably the Sydney Swans when they moved up from Melbourne yes twigged that the people they actually needed to Market to who were going to buy family tickets were women yes and that changed the whole way that the AFL marketed it was a non-event in Sydney yes now it's bigger than rugby league yeah it's massive in Sydney every one of my my friends that's got teenage kids they're up watching the swans every every home match at the stadium they would they would have been disappointed the weekend then wouldn't they they I think I'm not sure if they've tumbled off the top of the ladder and the Brisbane Lions are in we need to claim a few brownie points back after the state of origin anyway so we'll take that interesting games it doesn't matter next week we won't be blue and maroon we're going to be green and gold we're only going to be concerned about whether or not we've beaten the Americans in the swimming pool but I think also that you know coming back to that female um Centric type business and and they do control the wallet whether us bles like it or not um and you can see that particularly in some of our clubs where we've got female managers and there is just something about the feel of those venues um when you when you when you when you go into them but I I think that has also led to an increase in the focus on um Family environments which I guess is a market the casino is never going to want want to know about they don't want to know about it they don't have children's facilities generally they don't want them they're hidden away if they do um they they don't want that Market at all no they want people to come in you know once a month or once a fortn night with a th000 bucks in their pocket and have a real big night y they're not really interested in that churn Market which we've got and we hold quite well yes cuz we we are seeing in Queensland at the moment particularly a very significant uh renovation investment in some you know really major projects you know 30 40 million uh even add into our regions as well so and one of the key increases of that is increasing the cafe environment which again is very female Centric and it's gaming related yep um uh greater child facilities uh significant upgrade in toilets those sort of amenities more parking and so on oh different definitely the Flasher the toilet y the more female 50 plus you're going to get in your gaming room well I've got one friend who runs a club where she's got hair is installed in the bathroom right place is packed I remember quite a few years AG ago now Su long you know one of our P Pioneer female Club managers and and you know the new club she's got at Bri Sensational but uh she was probably the first person to put five star toilets in and and of course all the BLS were talking all these festar toilets all about every we want to go and have a look at Su Long's festar female toilets but now of course you look at every new renovation that's been done in clubland amount of money that gets spent on female toilet in particular very important is is incredible and uh yeah so that's that's fantastic okay let's just step away from the Queensland Casino uh scenario at the moment and and have a look at the regulatory environment that is currently unfolding in the club industry L of changes down in New South in New South Wales and and we hate to say it but you know states do tend to look what other states are doing and yes well I can tell but the Queensland uh inspectors and the the Queensland department is looking at what's happening in New South Wales as we speak with our roll out of um responsible gambling officers yes um they've totally turned around the the the Focus used to be on the customers sticking up their hand saying I have a gambling problem that's been totally 18 aded um to us now looking for Behavioral issues the difficulty there is that it's it's a very small step in between looking for behavioral issues to help your customers and stepping over that line into policemen yes so it's very very difficult and if you're a policeman in your Venue you can quite easily annoy your top tier Gamers because you've got a 19-year-old kid in their face every every hour saying oh you've been playing this Pok machine for 2 hours you sure you don't need a break are you okay like it's really difficult to tow that line it's just the um you know CTA is recently got uh approval for delivering all of that new regulatory training down there and the numbers incredible every time we put a course up y it gets sold out so there's obviously a panic on there for everyone to get skilled up um and uh and and I guess as you said the Queensland government will be looking at that yep they are and assessing the outcomes of it and we have had from I was going to say you have sort of a similar system up here but it's not quite as strict as what we've now got in New South a yes um but I I know a lot of the clubs in Sydney were looking at you know their Duty manager level and above getting them trained up with the advanced yes uh gaming um responsible gaming um courses right but now they've realized that they're putting it out in practice that they really need everybody on the gaming floor to have that same training so the expenses increased yes and so all you've got to you've got to have flexibility in your rosters you can't just have two people who are Duty managers Duty managers spend their day you know putting out a chip fire in the kitchen and then 5 minutes later a kegs run out down in the cell they can't be on the gaming floor when they need to be to look for these little behavioral issues um there's a few little um technical things that are happening along the way there's uh really really interesting systems Cherry hub's one um redeem X is another there's a few um apps that help those igos it's a tool for them to work um there's alerts when people have been on a machine for 3 hours or more that gives the iGo an opportunity to go up and have a chat with someone um there's escalation of um issues so you might just have something that's uh monitoring you might see someone I don't know rubbing the buttons with a lucky rabbit's foot um and and you need to sort of just think okay I saw that Ma that person doing that on that machine and you write that down as a note and then if you know something else happens later on and there's a bit of an escalation there you can go on what we call check in with them so you can have a quick chat um with most of the customers that I deal with you get in front of your top tier players and just have a chat with them and say this is what this is why we're doing it if you get a 19-year-old in your face asking you questions this is why we have to do it so again that's a communication abut particularly with your your major you know your yeah the major ones it's it's more a personal again go personal with your top tier players or your upper tier players um with the lower tier players it's been more email Communications and end of Bank signage okay you know just letting them know what's happened you know obviously the when the Queensland industry looks at what's happening in New South Wales is always a trend as you indicated yeah look I think the queen Regulators are looking at what's happening down there so we can't expect a greater increase uh in requirements around harm minimization ESS if you look at the history of of gaming in the last 30 years the first 10 were all about expanding our maths expanding our reals expanding our art all that sort of stuff and then for the last 10 years it's been all about contractions right withdrawing privileges for this that and the other and in New South Wales we have quite a and limiting the number of machines you know there's no new machines going into any amount of money going into machines Max bets ma all all that sort of information is is just becoming restricted yeah um the way the maths is constructed in a game is much more limited it used to be it's lot less volatile it's the word that we use in our industry a lot than it used to be um and so all of it's about you know watching there's a lot of lobbyists out there that have lived off this whole industry as far as anti-gambling um and they're focusing on us rather than focusing on where the bigger problems actually are which is online gaming and on sports betting sports betting and stuff like that in real time on credit yeah and of course you can still buy $442,000 lotto ticket from the government y they haven't stopped that they haven't stopped advertising that no that's right in fact the advertising for for lotto tickets is is uh I I think quite Draconian advertising in terms of trying to manipulate people into can be y yeah um but yeah I think most uh most of the clubs and hotels in New South Wales are kind of got their heads around the new iGo role and you know we just live with regulations change and you just have to roll with it and that's one of the things we really really good at in clubs and pubs rolling with those changes yeah we do when you know we we've risen to every brick that correct yeah people have thrown thrown at us uh and I mean we we're our own worst enemies in some respect of that too because we're very poor at telling the general Community what we do with the funds that we make ab and u y you walk into a Foy of a club and they've got list of the club the little sports clubs and things they donate money to but they never send out Instagram posts Facebook posts about how much money goes into a local football club or you know we're not real good at doing that so we need to definitely lift our game there we uh I remember distinctly looking at an ad it was a few years ago from one of the big supermarkets uh they were giving $1,000 away to local Cricket clubs and they indicated how much they were giving away which was about 4 minutes or $5 million or something or rather but then I did read another article a few a bit later on in a marketing magazine talking about that campaign where they spent 25 million yeah on an advertising campaign telling everybody they'd given 5 million to Cricket clubs so you know we don't do that in cluband we don't get together and promote what we do enough collectively I guess the other issue that everybody's you know watching keenly in New South Wales too is the uh the C gaming trials and and um you know what's the latest update on that uh so the government actually took over the whole trial process about three months ago in New South Wales we had Aristocrat trialing in a club up on in Newcastle at one stage IGT were triing in a club in the city the government's now taken over and they called for voluntary 500 machines to go into a pool to trial cash lless they got something like 6 and a half thousand cuz everyone in in New South Wales want cashless gaming we just don't want compulsory cashless gaming and compulsory is being the operative word absolutely and we need to move our customers towards cashless gaming anyway the banks are saying that 2028 cash will be gone the banks are saying 2028 cash will be gone so our customers don't want to use cash yep you know they want to use digital processes and that's what we need to move our customers to slowly but surely um so the trials are underway at the moment e BET's doing a great job Aristocrat and IGT in their trialing as well there have been a few technical issues that come up but that's the whole point of a trial trials um and they've you know successfully negotiated all of those they just want to make sure um that they've got all their ducks in a row as far as how it works and how people process the funds from their bank account into a gambling account and then onto the machine and back the other way quickly and easily and that it's not um prone to any issues um which they're working their way through they've been trialing now for probably I think the first one was in tweet heads six seven weeks ago maybe a little bit more okay it's been going for a while is there a uh a sense I mean I think part of the perception in industry is that uh you know punters are a bit frightened over it because they don't want people knowing what they're spending and and all that sort of stuff I think there is a partially a sense of that happening and I think a lot of clubs particularly Dan in New South Wales or in Sydney are worried that people like tradies that y tend to have more Ready Cash than most other people for one reason or another um you know that they might stop spending so much it's like everything people get used to it after a while right and they will if they like playing Pok machines and it's a perfectly legal entertainment choice to make they will find a way y to get with the digital program and it'll be fine long term it's when it when they talk about it being compulsory as in that's the only way that you can play a poker machine that's going to be a whole different kettle of fish yes right um and and that's why I'm suggesting that people need to as soon as it's available dive in get your customers used to it um you know roll out cash lless even if it's just for your top tiers get them used to the whole process of using cashless accounts right and you see longer term I suppose if it's voluntary it's not a big issue but as you say I I I guess some of the fears are that it's a thin end of the wedge for compulsory it will be it will become eventually compulsory I know a lot of people would disagree with that statement um but that's the way as I just described you know the history of our industry was all about giving us extra stuff for the first 30 years it's been all about taking it away for the last 10 right there are a lot of people out there that make their living out of the bagging us y absolutely yeah and as as we've said a 100 times we're not good at saying what we do well correct and it will come whether it's 5 years from now or 10 years from now it will eventually be a compulsory option for gambling on poker machines and they're pushing the casinos to that already because of the stuff they were doing well there's some some talk I mean as you know we put out the the monthly gaming report here in Queensland monitoring the all the clubs and um we've done very well in Queensland the growth in in gaming has been exceptional and you've been writing some comments for us on on that in our newsletters um and so um you know one of the theories as the reason why that's happened is because the casinos are not as attractive to some people and that maybe the club industry's benefit from that although there's no evidence I think it's just a perception but well it doesn't matter if it's a perception really it's kind of nice when it happens that way exactly um it is in New South Wales the same it's up on previous years same in Victoria it's up it seems to be right across the board y uh I don't quite know why to be honest I mean particularly down in Sydney um you know things like mortgages rising cost of living increases across the country you know they're all hitting people um but I always remember Mr answorth who's famous in our indust IND telling me when I was about 20 that it doesn't matter whether it's a good time or bad time in our industry in tough times people put their last 50 bucks in a Pok machine to try and win the money to pay their electricity bill and in good times they got the extra money to have a bit of a flutter so he said it's a big roundabout and he's quite right we've seen this roundabout you know go every five years or so we go through a new cycle right let's just recap and it's been great talking to you and um we maybe we might even do this again sounds good uh yeah um but just recap and I think the sense I'm getting from you is that really uh sure there'll be some impact in in club but it's nothing to get too worried about Take Your Eye Off the Ball but you certainly need to sharpen your pencil in lots of ways and we have mentioned a few things that will help us to be more competitive I guess uh in in in against the casino um and one of the things was certainly about our staffing issues and making sure that we perhaps have a have another look at a more mature staff yes definitely and don't forget the to form a better relationship with our older customers Y and the casino is actively out there poaching at the moment I know they've pulled a lot of people even from New South Wales we've got um really good experience in um clubs and hotels they've they've got a gap in their marketing cinos in that they're not used to actually operating according to regulations so they have a cultural issue the casinos which they're working really hard to change um but the way they're doing that is by pulling in people from clubs that are used to regulations that are used to dealing with customers within certain parameters um the casino staff are always focused on kpis right because they've got to make money for a shareholder not for their local community or their Club so there's a much sharper uh instance or in there's a much sharper way of making your staff uh work towards those kpis in casinos there sometimes even if you do get poached to a casino they're not always the most comfortable places to work because of that because they really do expect an awful lot um but in in clubs I think you know we have an advantage in that we can spread our staff a little wider we can pull in those older older staff um with a a really good attitude um the casino will try and pinch some of your younger stuff well I think that's happening already in terms of even this in the last couple of months recruitment yeah and you we we're the largest third party recruiter in the Queensland Club Space yes uh but even just in the last few months we've found it very difficult and we obviously got a sense that people were looking around if they were wanting to leave where they are they're looking and looking what other options are available and there are plenty yes and so uh it is it is creating so we need to make sure that um we're not running short on stuff correct I mean we also you know we've got a more better demographics and stuff instead of all the you know just a wider demographic really um but also don't forget casinos are pretty much 24-hour businesses and if you are working at a casino as a new staff member you get the crappiest shifts right so you'll be working at 5 5:00 in the morning and when all your mates are out on a Saturday night you'll be working at the casino um so it's not it's not as easy as people think to be honest it might be a fun place to work from the perspective of food you get fantastic food in your braks um but as far as you know com um balancing your life yeah with work at a casino it can be quite tough yep and and I think one of the other takeaways is to continue with our uh Redevelopment or or refreshing of our clubs particularly focusing on the female market and that and the Family Market and and that will be all about bigger and better cafes yes uh better child facilities and amenities safety is the other big issue that we haven't mentioned huge issue in cluband I remember you know when we done research over the years about why people choose clubs over say pubs for example safety was always a a a significant and uh that means better Lighting in your car park again for the female Market yep um well most of the clubs I work out the security after 8:00 at night walk people back to their cars yes they ask they don't just assume yes um but you know they ask if someone would like an escort back to the car if you're a you know 70y old woman and you've just won a jackpot on a Pok machine and everybody's just seen it yes you don't want to be walking back out to your car in the dark in the middle of the night so you know again it comes back to that personalized service these are the little things aren't they the one percenters that'll make 100% difference it's always the one percenters it doesn't matter what business you're in yeah yeah and and so I guess the um you know just focusing on those those elements and also the way in which we operate our loyalty and having a that and even um even things like promotions you know they need to be targeted to your particular area of expertise whatever customer that is yes you know make sure you're talking to them directly you know don't get into a excuse the terminology but don't get into a pissing competition with a casino on jackpots and badge drawers and car draws things like that you know it's just not going to happen and just remember for the first six months um just play nice with your customers as much absolutely and then after 6 months everyone's been to the casino they've all seen it they know what's happening then you can start roll out your campaign absolutely yes so and I think that's been uh a bit of a general consensus too is that and don't try and take the casino on in the first six months no keep your funds save your money uh let them have their glory for 6 months and then come come out with all guns blazing at the end of the six-month period yep with the key things that identify with your key Market I think you I mean everybody has a market that they're really really good at servicing yes um and everybody needs to know you know what their point of difference is in their club and I'm sure every manager up here understands it so they just need to focus on that well it's been great talking to you again and I know we've had lunch and coffee quite a few times in the last year or so few disagreements about the football but that's okay yes right maybe maybe we'll take up soccer and then you know there won't be any arguments uh but no but it's been great talking to we we we must do this again too perhaps six 6 months after the casino has been we'll have a look and get some feedback but no and just I remember talking to you in the past to I mean you managed some rather huge gaming flaws too in your past and we didn't mention about that I do I don't I I I tend to work as a consultant in the industry um historically I have have worked in large venues we're through that you're on our team of Consultants too doing some work for DWS um with some gaming specialist stuff that's good and yeah but I think you remember telling me one of your venues had hundreds of G machines I'm trying to yeah I worked in quite a few large ones I mean probably like a couple of times I've been called into Panthers to work on special so how many machines would they operate these days they've got five venues I think it's about 1500 machines or something like that I can't remember might be 12200 now think I might have taken a few out okay um but you know they've got a they've got a really really good gaming team in there they've got smart marketing team quite fun to work there and I know uh I know that uh you know Tony and and Louise our marketing people in our office were having a look at the the staff they've got and in their marketing department in the casino and it's incredible number of people they well their marketing encompasses everything from promotions to Communications to gaming promotions food promotions you know they have all these specialists in different things um I know someone whose job is to take the Instagram photos of the food and that's all that's the job yeah right so they tend to be very very serious about their marketing yes and and like I said they they will they will do whatever they can to pinch your customers initially unfortunately in club it's still a bit of a you know cut and paste type stuff with copying other people there's not a lot of creativity at the moment well I don't I think specific to be fair I think it's changing I just think again we need to focus on that personal stuff right you know if you're if you're talking to Gamers then you're probably in most clubs talking to 55 year old plus women so talk to them the way they want to hear um if you're a pub in the middle of the Gold Coast somewhere and you've got fluo shirts that come in at 3: in the afternoon then the two for one steak offers is perfectly fine so you just again you come back to knowing and understanding who your Market is and talk to them in the way they want to be spoken to all right well we have to close off now um we could keep going for hours but um totally left of field uh oh how's the you know you you were studying anthropology I think P Pont paleontology doing my PhD in paleontology yeah where do you find the time to do that I mean I was think of taken up law last year but then my answer to every question like that is I don't have children um when you don't have children every hour of every day is your own right okay so that's my answer to that question is I don't have kids so I've got lots of time to do things are essentially my hobbies well thanks very much again thank you uh travel safely we'll do back down south and you know maybe we'll be able to Coes you to reside on the goal Coast in the years ahead definitely at some stages thanks thanks very much Justine thank you thank you well thank you everybody for joining us today I'd love to know your thoughts about the discussion we've uh we've had with Justine and if you'd like any uh information or anything we've discussed uh please don't hesitate to contact me or you'd like to have an appointment with Justine to talk about your gaming site just give us a bill and uh if you like the discussion share it with a friend as well so thanks very much again for your time and maybe we'll do another one again not too fast far away thanks very much bye [Music] [Applause]