a [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] all right ladies and gentlemen gentlemen and ladies tonight I'm going to be looking at a discussion it wasn't really a debate it was kind of a debate but more of a discussion that happened I want to say it was the day before yesterday on the reason and theology YouTube channel and oh I'm sorry hold on one second oh give me one second I just got an emergency text message e e e all right forgive me for that I I have a family member who's having some medical issues and my sister's texting me right now so if you see me preoccupied throughout the stream it's going to be because of that but I'm going to try to get through it um your prayers will be appreciated if you are the praying type but back to what I was saying um the other day on the reason and theology YouTube Chann Chanel there took place this discussion between a Catholic gentleman named Luis Dison and a unarian Named Sam tan now I wasn't really familiar with either guy uh the unarian gentleman I had seen maybe a year ago year and a half ago may could have even been longer because I think he interviewed somebody on his YouTube channel That I Used to um what's the word I want to look for converse with on Twitter so I've seen him once before but honestly didn't even know he was a Unitarian I I thought he was in the same camp as the guy he was interviewing back then um Sam wants to know who won the debate the discussion I I think the Catholic guy you know if if I was scoring it I think the Catholic guy but this was more of a discussion with them learning about each other's beliefs it was very respectful um again I I find Unitarian readings of the Bible to be very tendentious and very strained none of it seems natural and they they have to jump through a lot of Hoops to get everything to shoehorn into this Jesus is just a man and you know even among unitarians you can't really find Total agreement over did Jesus pre-exist did he not pre-exist was he in some sense Angelic was he not Angelic you know there's there's a lot of diversity within it but it seems to be that they unite around just not being trinitarian so it's kind of like the enemy of my enemy is my friend approach to things so even um Dale tuggy and a couple other guys started this Unitarian Christian Alliance and they're not all on the same page like there's there's as much doctrinal disagreement amongst these un unitarians as there is amongst you know various Protestant denominations or uh anything of the light but I want to thank everyone for tuning in Giovani thanks for being here actually Giovani I'm gonna make you a mod if you don't mind how do I make you a mod over here got to forgive me with the technical stuff let me go here here we go all right all right so giovan's a mod Byzantine is a mod Sam's a mod and again thank you guys for uh tuning in so we're going to get into this but let me just share a little bit of my background with Unitarianism because this goes back like nearly 20 years now and I used to frequent America online chat rooms when I was a young believer and I would go into the Christian chat rooms and there was one guy in particular that I used to spar with all the time and his screen name was no Trinity in Bible and me and him used to go back and forth and he was I don't know if he was a member of the way International or you know he left that with like John Shen height for spirit and Truth Fellowship or whatever it was but we would go back and forth so a lot of the stuff that the gentleman brings up in this discussion tonight is stuff that I was hearing almost 20 years ago so it's not new um in terms of recent history but it's new in terms of church history and we're going to see the Catholic gentleman actually bring that up as one of his uh talking points so we're going to get into it um if you're not familiar with Biblical Unitarianism I would recommend checking out spirit and Truth Fellowship excuse me um the what are they calling themselves the Christian unarian Alliance I think is Dale tug's thing then Dale tuggy has the Trinity's uh podcast as well as his blog there is I think the way International is still around [Music] um who else is out there is it Sean finnean has rested too I think and that you know that's another thing about unitarians they they kind of see themselves as restoring the church so for them the apostles were unitarians Jesus was a Unitarian all the Old Testament characters are unitarians and then through the course of history and creeping in of Greek philosophy the Trinity develops and by the end of the 4th Century this is overtaken and you know just totally demolished and ruined the church you know never mind Jesus saying that he'll give the church the Holy Spirit and he'll guide them into all truth and that the Gates of Hell will not Prevail but they look at themselves as restoring it's a it's a restoration movement but every every cult claims that right the Mormons claim that the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that everybody's restoring something that was previously lost so just keep that in mind but I would recommend you know going to their websites familiarizing yourself with their arguments and their literature they've been putting out books in recent years and I'm going to be the first to admit that I I haven't kept up with Unitarian scholarship past listening to Dale tug's podcast I really haven't paid much attention so you know if if there's areas that I'm lacking you know if Sam's here watching I'm sure he's a breasted on all of this stuff he could jump in Sam if you want to join me let me know I'll send you the link but we're going to get into this video so let me share my screen and let's go I got it playing on 1.25 just to get through it a little quicker right hey everybody welcome back to reason and theology got an early morning debate here debate discussion uh between Sam tan and Lis deson on Unitarianism versus trinitarianism so this is going to be really exciting I'm looking forward to it what we're gonna have is Sam offer an opening statement a presentation from a Unitarian perspective and then we're going to have a free flow conversation after that we will have a time for Q&A towards the end so hold off on your questions um until towards the end and um I want uh to just afford both of youall the opportunity to just briefly introduce yourselves so Sam go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself um sure my name is Sam I'm the host of the YouTube channel transfigured um I am a what's called a Biblical Unitarian I'll explain probably more what that is in a bit but I grew up this way uh in case people wonder how I came to hold these beliefs that I do um but I uh really enjoy Interfaith dialogue um discussions and debates between Christians um I've been interacting with Lewis for um a while now although this is I think our first time to get to interact uh face to face so to say um so I'm very grateful for this opportunity thanks glad to have you and Louis for those who may not be familiar with you tell the audience a little bit about yourself yeah so I'm lisis Dion uh I've been showing up to this um channel for several years now although as I learned recently there are still people who are unfamiliar with me but yes new people coming in every day yeah so I do a lot of the shows on reason theology that have to do with biblical studies comparative religions and miscellaneous topics whatever catches my fancy so I do have a sub a block within reason theology called one Peter 3 um you know a reference to that verse in First Peter where he says always be ready to give an answer to those who ask for reason for the hope that is in you so I invited Sam to come on here because I am interested in the trinitarian versus Unitarian debate and a lot of my interest in this topic has to do with the fact that I also do a lot of work with Muslims and one of the chief critiques that Muslims have against you know um Orthodox Catholic Christianity is our belief in the Trinity and one of the things I've noticed is that there's a lot of cross-pollination between uh biblical unitarians and Muslims in terms of the sorts of arguments that they use so you know that they're mostly copying from us but you know yes yes of course yeah you're going to notice that it's it's not just Muslims and biblical unitarians it's all everybody has a problem with the Trinity so what does that tell you you know that's the distinctly Christian doctrine that's the core of our faith that God is Father Son and Holy Spirit and the fact that every non-Christian religion every Christian quasi Christian cult every heretical sect they all deny the Trinity you know to me that points towards the truth of it rather than it's being false I would add to that uh yeah I think unitarians do wear unitards the c clips a lot and hold on Sam is joining me now what's up brother hey what up brother how are you I'm doing I'm surviving by the grace and mercy of our God and savior Lord Jesus Christ praise God you don't mind me I join you huh yeah no not at all love it but you know I was just saying Sam how every all these non-Christian groups the Trinity is their main objection right it's the one thing they come against the christadelphians the Jehovah's Witnesses the biblical unitarians the Muslims the uh Mormons all of them have a problem the one is Pentecostals it's all the Trinity you could agree on everything else some of these groups can even recite most of the Apostles Creed but as soon as you get to the co-equal co-essential co-eternal father son and spirit now all of a sudden it's a problem exactly yeah precisely so I'll follow your lead I'm just curious because I didn't watch this at all I watch this and so when you announced you're reviewing it I was surprised because I seen this man this Unitarian whose name is Sam sadly he's got my name so whenever Michael says Sam I think he's thought of me he had a discussion with Trent horn how did that go I didn't think it went too well to be honest or Sam or for Trent I think uh Trent was trying to find how do I say this I think it was more of Trent trying to be very friendly and cordial and you don't have to be a jerk and mean but I didn't get the impression that Trent was there to refute solidly refute the objections against the Trinity gotcha so I wasn't too pleased with it but remember I'm you know my debate Styles but go ahead brother I just it is what it is amen I mean you're you're gonna find it's pretty much the same with this it's not it's not that he's not trying to refute he disagrees throughout and he disagrees with almost everything he says but he's very friendly in the way he does it it's not polemical at all so it's it's a lot of oh you know that's interesting that you see it that way but what about this type of thing so but we we'll see all course um but it's not unusual for me to um listen to a trinity trinitarian versus unarian debate and see a bunch of Muslims on the side cheering for the unarian side so yeah that's what got me interested in this uh debate as well excellent we're really excited to do this so okay what I'll do is I will remove myself and Lewis from the screen give you the floor Sam and then once you're done I'll bring us back on the screen and then y'all twoo can have a discussion all right if you're ready uh go ahead and dive in um sure I I I don't have too long of a presentation to give um I'll just sort of kind of do this off the cuff but biblical Unitarianism just to give it a definition is the belief first off that God is one that there is only one person in the godhead and that God therefore is unipersonal as opposed to tri-personal and that the one person that God is is God the father and that Jesus is not a member of the godhead or a person within the godhead but he is a human being who came to exist in the Virgin Mary so in other words Jesus did not in any personal or literal Al sense predate his conception in the Virgin Mary he you could maybe say he existed in God's forn knowledge or God's plan but not in any sort of personal or interactive way so there are no appearances of Jesus in the Old Testament except through prophecy or foreshadow or allegory Jesus was born sinless because of the Virgin birth you could say he was sort of in a state like Adam was as having uh not um having no original sin however you want to conceive of that or Define that within himself and that he um at the baptism uh receives the Holy Spirit and that the holy spirit in him is what enables him to do Miracles so in other words I actually think that this is probably one of the clearest differences between a Biblical unarian and a trinitarian is that Jesus does his miracles by the power of God at work within him so in other words Jesus doesn't have the intrinsic power to do those things but he has a received power of God working through him via the holy spirit in him so right off the bat you know I I would say that's a straw man of the trinitarian position right it's we believe that that God became man right that the Eternal logos becomes incarnate but he's a man filled with the spirit and he works according to the spirit because what does he say when he's casting out demons and they accuse him of doing it by the power of beob Matthew 1228 yes but I also think it's a FAL dichotomy it's not either or because he selectively cites certain passages like you're alluding to Matthew 12:28 where it's by the spirit of God and then also I'm certain he would appeal to let's say acts 2:22 that Jesus was a man accredited to you by God through whom God did signs and wonders so there it's attributed to God the father or in Acts 10 3738 specifically 38 where says God anointed him with the spirit and power to go about doing good but then they ignore the passages where it's not just the father it's not just the spirit but it's the son who's also doing the Miracles it's not either or it's all of the above for example you go to John 5 if you look at John 5:19 in fact if you start at John 5:116 to30 our Lord is making a case why he has every right to work on the Sabbath and he justifies it by saying since the father himself works on the Sabbath he too being the unique son has the same right to work on the Sabbath because the Jews were aware that God the father is exempt from Sabbath restrictions because the father has to be personally active to be sustaining creation preserving life otherwise there'd be no life and so the Lord is saying likewise as the son he too has that same right and they realize he's claiming equality to God and there Jesus says that the works the father does he does in the exact same manner just like the father raises a then gives life so to the son gives life to whom he pleased so there it's not the spirit absolutely who is empowering Jesus it's father son and spirit together doing works that's why we're trinitarian absolutely very good points him and so Jesus also same you could say the same thing about his authority to teach is that he's teaching the words that God gives him not uh his own words from his own authority and that he you know dies uh via crucifixion dead for three days rises from the dead and that this crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus I think that this is something that probably Le and I will be talking about is in what sense does creation come to be through Jesus and I would say that the new creation comes to be through Jesus there are a handful of passages that talk about God creating through Jesus but I would say that the creation that comes to be through Jesus is not the Old Testament creation of that's say described in Genesis 1 2 and 3 but it is the new creation that talks about like when Paul will say um anyone in Christ is a new creation or in Ephesians will'll say we have been created in Christ Jesus for good works there's the sense in which all of humanity and really in its culmination all of creation will be recreated through what Jesus accomplished on the cross um and so sometimes I feel like uh biblical Unitarianism is you know described or criticized as having a low christology but sometimes I'm like I mean our christology is pretty high in a lot of ways it depends what you mean by high and low we do think that Jesus was a man through whom God created the Eternal world yeah so by high we mean Creator and by low we mean anything other than Creator so yeah and notice again what they have to do they have to explain away passages that are not talking about the new creation but the old creation absolutely because they can't have Jesus being there from the beginning of creation so they will reinterpret passages which is about the old cretian and how do we know because number one if you go to Hebrews 1 8 to12 there Psalm 45 6-7 and Psalm 102 25-27 are applied to our lord Jesus by the father himself now if anyone reads Psalm 102 and you read 25- 27 there it's talking about Yahweh having created the heavens in the earth and the heavens and the Earth changing wearing out like a garment whereas Yahweh in contrast to Creation Remains the Same he remains constant and his ears never end that is not a description of the new creation because the new creation will not wear out it will not Decay it will not be rolled up like a garment this is talking about the present creation that's decaying and corrupting awaiting for its Redemption that's in Romans 81 19-25 so there the talk of the old creation as a work of yahwe not some intermediate agent is now attributed to Christ that Christ is is that Lord that Yahweh who created the heavens and the Earth who's now changing them and rolling them up like a garment and unlike that creation he Remains the Same so you can't explain that away and secondly even if it's the new heaven Earth you still end up with Jesus being God not just man because in Isaiah 65:17 the creation of the new heaven Earth is attributed to Yahweh and not an intermediate agent particularly a human so either way he buries his Unitarianism yeah absolutely 517 who's the one who's going to create the new Heaven and Earth Yahweh amen so either way this argument gets buried but anyway I don't want to keep belaboring or the point but these things just because he speaks 50 miles per hour I guess because he's short on time and yeah and one more point I would ask him is Jesus died and rose again as a mere man so a mere man is able to then do what Jesus himself said is humanly impossible because in Matthew 1925-26 which is also in Mark 10: 26:27 when the disciples are astonished at the words of the Lord but the rich man who loved his riches too much and walked away instead of giving it all up to obtain eternal life through faith in Christ and he says it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of an needle than for Rich Man enter the kingdom into heaven and they go then who can be saved that's their question who who can be saved and Jesus says with men this is impossible but With God all things are possible so he's saying it is impossible for a mere man to save himself let alone someone else only God can do that which is humanly impossible and yet he has the mere man Jesus doing what he said is humanly impossible yeah yeah falls apart on every level all right we really way do you get to his exegesis of Colossians 1 that you're going to love that exactly and that in a certain sense the creation that comes to be through Jesus is better and you know more real than the creation that happened in Genesis because the Genesis creation will wear out and then there will be a new heavens and a new Earth and this new creation through Jesus will last forever in comparison to the old creation which is finite did you catch it he acknowledged that it's a Genesis creation that's wearing out but then Psalm 102 25:27 which speaking about the Genesis creation wearing out is attributed to Jesus as the Lord who created the Genesis account of creation absolutely night in time and duration so Jesus is then uh ascended into heaven and in heaven I would say this is something that um I often enjoy talking with uh Catholics and Orthodox folks sometimes more than Protestant folks because I feel like there are a couple strange ways in which biblical Unitarianism is more similar to Catholicism or Orthodoxy like one emphasis that we have is that Jesus in some sense gets made Divine um an Eastern Orthodox person might use the word theosis uh in Catholic Parliament you might say human deification and I think another thing that when I'm talking with Catholic folks uh another thing that I feel like helps Catholic folks understand my christology is that my christology about Jesus has a lot of similarities to what Catholics say about Mary in that Mary was born without original sin and that kind through moral choice and effort lives a perfect life she could have sinned maybe but she doesn't and that then she's assumed into heaven she gets exalted to the status of say Queen of Heaven or something like that she is the first of the Saints she is the first human to undergo this process of deification and all of those sorts of things are things that we will say not of Mary but of Jesus and so I think that if you sort of it's not a perfect map but if you sort of map uh a Catholic view of Mary to a Biblical Unitarian view of Jesus I think that can help um Catholics imagine what I'm saying a little bit better um and then I should yeah that that was my first time ever hearing that comparison y yeah we can put holes in I don't want to keep pontificating or taking too much time but uh take as much as you need okay well now let's let's now destroy that false analogy because it's not a parallel the reason why Catholics and Orthodox say that Mary was preserved by the grace of God from being affected and tainted by any sin is because of the fact that she was to conceive in her womb God and all his fullness in other words Mary is kept pure so that her body would be a fitting vessel for God to then be conceived in that womb and take from her human flesh a physical body human DNA and chromosomes Etc so that's why God preserves her from being tainted this is the Catholic and Orthodox understanding now whether you accept it or not I'm just articulating the Catholic Orthodox understanding Protestants will deny this that's fine we're just saying that analogy doesn't work because that analogy hinges on Mary being kept pure so that God could dwell in her womb in all his fullness because after all if we go to for example Leviticus 16 and we contrast that where you have the Earthly Tabernacle the Earthly Temple which eventually becomes a temple during that time it's a tabernacle you have the Holy place and the most holy place now to understand why Catholics and Orthodox argue this way the high priest was only allowed to enter the most holy Place once a year and he had to enter by first making an atoning sacrifice for himself and his family sacrifice full and then he would make sacrifice for all of Israel now he can only enter once a year at his own Peril because if the sacrifices were not accepted he'd be struck dead in other words here's the Earthly Tabernacle that is only a shadow of the Heavenly Tabernacle and in comparison there is no comparison it pales in comparison and yet this high priest had to now tread lightly before he could enter the most holy place of what is simply the shadow now can you imagine how much more fearful how much more dangerous it would be to then approach the Heavenly Temple and go before the Heavenly Mercy Seat the Throne of God if the high priest on Earth could only enter once a year and he had to then get out right after the atonement was made and if it wasn't acceptable he struck dead how much more fearful how much more Dreadful how much more reverently must you approach God Seated on The Mercy Seat in heaven which is reality now what do I mean if God will not tolerate for a single moment someone tainted by sin to enter the Earthly Tabernacle Most Holy place because he'd be struck dead then do you think that God would tolerate sin for a moment to be in his holy presence in the Heavenly Tabernacle in the Heavenly Temple before the Heavenly Mercy Seat now how does that connect with Mary then do you think for a moment that Mary could contain the fullness of God God in all his fullness in her womb if she for a second had been tainted by any sin the analogy see this analogy I'm giving so this argument is an arent that doesn't prove his case because the argument hinges that Mary had to be kept pure so that God could dwell in her and all his fullness because if there was even a tank of sin then she could not contain God in all his fullness because again what is the analogy if the Earthly Tabernacle the high priest had to enter at his own risk and he had to enter with a sacrifice to atone so he could even go beyond the the curtain in the most holy place to offer sacrifice to appease God and then right away leave the most holy place then that means Mary in order for her to be able to carry God in all his fullness for the entire nine month months that he's being conceived in our womb could not be con contaminated by even one sin otherwise she'd be disqualified how is this analogous to his view of Jesus being a man only a man being conceiv without sin and then somehow maintaining that sinlessness throughout his entire life which is something no human being has ever been able to starting with Adam because that's what he likened it to right Adam's creation and Adam was sinless Eve was sinless and so Jesus was created similarly but then how did Jesus maintain absolute moral Purity and did not succumb to even a tank of sin not even for a second yeah sorry man I kept belaboring the point but I wanted to make it clear absolutely yeah the the sanctuary had to be cleansed in order for the priest to even enter so there there's no way that Mary could have been with sin and you've heard people say this before I'm sure you've said it yourself but when when you have a bad view of Mary it usually reflects a bad christology exactly you know if if you really understood who Christ was then you understand who Mary had to be yep so and by the way I forgot to mention he did join me on a live stream he didn't last more than five minutes because when I asked him to now bring me objections he started appealing to sympathy and pity and I said I get the lot dude this guy yeah this guy it was over a year ago where I have been open challenge to come on streamyard I recognized him and so when he came on I said okay get to your point your objections and he was peeling sympathy well why do you have to be I said dude get to your objections you're here to give me objections and he kept whining had no objections so I threw him out he was appealing to sympathy gotcha all right let's get back into it say a couple things about the Holy Spirit we would say that the holy spirit is not a separate or distinct person I'm perfectly fine saying the holy spirit is divine or is god um but it is God the father's activity or energy at work in the world especially in believers like as I was describing in um the life of Jesus when Jesus has the Holy Spirit to send on him at the baptism he is then full like uh the Gospel of John will say that Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit without measure there's that verse in Colossians that says that in him in Jesus that is dwell the fullness of godhood or Divinity bodily and I would say that verse to me means that the holy spirit is so fully in Jesus that that's the Divinity or the godhead that's dwelling in Jesus bodily is the full deposit of the Holy Spirit In Jesus so the holy spirit is a separate or distinct person in the godhead but it is not undivine it is God's Divine energy or activity at work in the world hopefully that makes sense and I would say that there are sort of three reasons I don't know what points you want to address that's why I'm just following your lead I didn't want to re on your prade yeah no we could address that absolutely I mean the the distinction between father and spirit is seen in many places actually I'm sorry Sam I gotta take this phone call can you just take over real quick yeah yes yes yes so guys I want you to hear what he just said he stated that the holy spirit is God's activity right and that when Jesus is filled the Holy Spirit that's what it means when it says that Jesus has all the fullness of the godhead dwelling in him bodily so he equates the godhead that Jesus possessed in all H its fullness bodily to be the Holy Spirit filling him and that's what is the Divine element in Christ that's basically what he said you understand his point basically what is his point his point is that when in Colossians 29 says in him the Jesus Christ Our Lord the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily the deity that dwelt in Jesus and all its fullness is the holy spirit because he doesn't believe the holy spirit is a distinct person but simply God's activity maybe he would even liken it to his presence and that Jesus had the Holy Spirit indwelling fing him in all his fullness and he was alluding to John 3:34 see what they do to scripture they will take one passage of scripture that has one particular meaning and then butcher that and then mesh it in with another text of scripture and butcher that and assume that these passages are speaking about the same thing and have the same meaning and application so no in Colossians 2:9 the term for godhead theot theot or theot means the Divine Essence the divine nature that which is essential to the nature of God what does that mean God has a nature this what we believe that nature possesses certain characteristics and qualities so when Paul says in Colossians 29 that in Christ all the fullness of deity dwells bodily he means whatever essential characteristic a characteristic that is essential and necessary for the divine nature to possess in order for God to be God God has a nature that nature has essential necessary qualities and properties and characteristics without which it wouldn't be truly Divine so whatever makes up that divine nature every essential characteristic that makes up the nature of God Jesus possessed in all its fullness you understand what it means you guys understand what the word theot means in Colossians 29 and don't take my word for it look up any Greek lexican they'll tell you that the word theot the theot theas the Aras way theot means the divine nature the Divine Essence that which makes God God so if I were to tell you what are some of the necessary attributes that make up the nature of God that God has to possess in order to be God then youd have to list them off well for god to be God for God to be truly Divine for God to have a nature that's Divine for him to be true deity he has to be omniscient well that means Jesus possesses that he has to be omnipotent that means Jesus has to possess that he must be om present Jesus must possess that in order to be truly God by Nature you have to be uncreated Jesus must possess that that's what the term means now in John 3:34 that's a different meaning when it says that God has given Jesus the full measure of the Holy Spirit the holy spirit in all his fullness without limit that means the Holy Spirit was operating fully and completely in all his fullness with Christ that the Holy Spirit was working with Christ and the Holy Spirit was operating in and through Christ in such a way that all the fullness of the Holy Spirit the complete fullness of the Holy Spirit the complete power of the Holy Spirit was there present with Christ without limit it's two different contexts with two different meanings and by the way if the assumption is I don't know if this is what he's assuming I don't know if the assumption is well if Jesus was filled with the spirit somehow he cannot be a Divine person then this proves too much because number one it would prove God can't be a Divine person if that's the Assumption I don't know because I've heard many antitrinitarians argue the Holy Spirit cannot be a person because the spirit fills individuals and persons do not fill individuals well we have two problems number one this assumes what a Divine person can and cannot do when you tell me if the spirit fills individuals and therefore cannot be a person that assumes that you you know what a Divine person can and cannot do who told you that a Divine person is not able to fill you because you have to Define what filling means by being filled with the spirit means that the Holy Spirit comes upon you to empower and energize you but if that argument is true if that argument is true that the Holy Spirit cannot be a person and again I'm assuming that's where he's leading to again I don't want to attack strong man don't want to do that but I have heard enough unitarians to use that argument that he just proved God cannot be a person why folks because in Jeremiah 23 verses 23- 24 Yahweh says I Yahweh fill Heaven and Earth Jeremiah 23: 2324 specifically verse 24 Ephesians 3:19 it says that Believers are filled with the fullness of God I'm just giving references Ephesians 1:23 and Ephesians 47-10 Ephesians 1:23 Ephesians 47-10 it says Christ fills the church with his fullness and that Christ fills Heaven and Earth therefore if Christ fills Heaven and Earth God the Father fills Believers with all his fullness Yahweh fills Heaven and Earth and Christ fills the church with his fullness that means God the father and Christ cannot be persons either but anyway I just want and we can go on and show that the spirit cannot be merely the father's activity because then that means Jesus sends the father's activity and tells the father's activity what to do and when that activity hears from Jesus then he communicates what he hears that's John 163 but anyway brother yeah and then if you know I I would add if he's Romans 8 he's both the spirit of the father and the spirit of the son why isn't he equally the son's activity yeah yeah that's a good question I don't know how to well say oh well because now he's given the full measure of the spirit I don't but whole point is if the spirit is not a distinct person from the father who does he hear from in John 16:13 who does he hear from there Jesus says that the spirit will not speak of his own initiative of himself he'll only speak what he hears speak what and hear from whom yeah all right let's get back to it why I um support biblical Unitarianism I would say scripturally I mean the the main motivation biblical unitarians now are Protestant I'll talk about biblical Unitarianism in early Christianity in just a bit but right now biblical Unitarianism is a um basically a Protestant movement that's very biblicist and has the goal of sort of restoring and getting back to the original understanding of scripture in its original context that is you might disagree with our uh conclusions regarding that effort but just um describing that that is our our motivation and so after the 1500s like pretty early in the Reformation there were biblical unitarians showing up Michael cidus and others and there is in fact still a a Unitarian Church in Transylvania in Romania that actually dates back to the 1500s and then it's sort of migrated from Poland to England to the United States and also while there are some old versions of Unitarianism another thing that happens is like some Protestant Pastor or Theologian somewhere will be reading their Bible and be like you know this Trinity doesn't make sense I think it's kind of actually more like this and that they'll sort of independently arrive at a Biblical unarian conclusion so biblical Unitarianism isn't a denomination like you can't say what is the TR of biblical Unitarianism there are multiple denominations or small churches or groups or house fellowships that hold to this they might disagree about other things so biblical Unitarianism is more like a label like Calvinism or something like that where it describes a group of beliefs and there might be various Traditions that calvinist beliefs in various combinations but they're not like one United thing it's more of a theological description than a denominational description if that helps but I would say another reason um why I find biblical Unitarianism persuasive is uh looking at church history one of the things I love to do on my um YouTube channel is go through the early church fathers and look at church history I'm very passionate about studying and understanding early Christianity and I think a very strong argument can be made historically well I think a irrefutable argument is that biblical unarian existed in the early centuries of Christianity we have people described such as theodus of banum and paulos samada and Fus of galatia who are all important and well-known Church figur yeah and they're all from the second century so he's appealing to second century individuals like Paul of samada who are condemned those Heretics and he's saying see they existed yeah well a variety of heresies existed had gnosticism existing in the time of the Apostles themselves does that make it true yeah I I saw a guy um I think I think you debated him before was it Bryson something or other um is it uh I is he a rapper yes yeah I think I saw him do a debate where he was saying that he he is a judaizer right so whatever he's saying his whatever he believes existed in the first century and he pointed to the judaizers as those who believed what he believes but yeah the existence of Heretics doesn't mean that what you believe is correct yeah because in first John chapter 4 John is already condemning a form of what we call narcism proton narcissism because he's saying that if anyone denies that Christ Has Come In the Flesh that that would be the Dost does that mean because Dost exist in the time of the Apostles therefore they're valid and they're true it's a true expression that's how bman argues but he would say no because the Apostle John condemned that as heresy precisely and the to the apostles like ignacius and Justin Martyr and arus condemned you as a heretic and your views as heresies yeah 100% who are described as explicitly holding these beliefs I don't think any historian would really dispute that um but what I would say also is that I think the historical evidence strongly suggests that biblical Unitarianism is the earliest christology that you can find in history and that trinitarianism by takes a couple centuries to develop and that you really don't see trinitarianism until say the second half of the fourth Century all right that's my pet peeve right there and you know for for 20 years I've been shouting this from the rooftops but we can't take the nyine you know Nyo constantinopolitan Creed and make that the standard of trinitarianism right that's how the Trinity was expressed at that time for a particular reason because of the circumstances surrounding the controversies about denying the the relationship of the father and the son and later by Constantinople denying the deity of the spirit but that doesn't mean that there's no doctrine of the trinity in the scriptures it's just not nine trinitarianism because it comes before and too often I see Christians just uh graning that you know they they they give them that one and they'll say yeah well it develops and it this and it's that but the Old Testament has a doctrine of the Trinity because it has a doctrine of God the New Testament has a doctrine of the Trinity because it has a doctrine of God and whatever language they used in NAA is the language they used in NAA but that isn't the standard by which we judge the scriptures it's it's the reverse we judge NAA by the scriptures because even St athanasius said those in NAA breathe forth the spirit of the scriptures so yeah notice what he did when it came to Unitarian he talks about that it's a theological concept but that there are differences among how unitarians Express that right do you remember you said that so when it comes to him he wants to give himself a pass that you may speak to more than one unarian but the way they articulate the relationship with the father and the spirit won't be the same correct they will differ but that's okay because all the Unitarianism saying is that the father alone is God and the spirit is not a distinct person in Jesus's man now how you are articulate that relationship you know that's secondary but then when it comes to the Trinity because this is what they do these Bible Butcher and church his history perverts that just pervert history unless you can find earlier Christians articulating and expressing the Trinity exactly the way we find it later on in the 4th Century then they're not trinitarians and that's a li the of help I have documented and if this guy is listening I dare him to then challenge me and come put me in my place Justin Martyr tertullian who was not a church father aronas they all taught the Trinity and that they all affirm father son Holy Spirit are uncreated now the way they went about expressing the relationship between son and spirit and how the son who existed as the logos the reason within the mind of God was then brought forth and that act of bringing in Forth is when he becomes a son even though he was still personally differentiated when he was with in God we can talk about that but that's still not their form of Unitarianism it's still three uncreated entities and that within God you had this differentiation where God is reasoning with himself and talking within himself to another that's what tertullian says and then when he wants to create he then brings forth and brings forth both the spirit and the son from within himself and that's where you find this differentiation instead of them being within God whatever that means and yet still personally differentiated they're now outside of God but Inseparable from him that would be just one major difference of the way they articulated the trinitarian relationships from later Christians but nonetheless it's three uncreated realities not one Divine person who then sends forth the spirit as his activity and then creates a man for that activity to indwell absolutely all right whereas you can see biblical Unitarianism in the fourth Century the third Century the second century and I would even argue the first century in people like Clement of Rome so that historical argument I think is another reason to be biblical Unitarian and I think the last third reason so the first reason biblical second reason historical third reason I would say is philosophical as Lewis mentioned uh Muslims love to poke at utran any time they're debating you and they often bring up The Logical inconsistencies of the Trinity and whether or not in the final anal um the Trinity has proven to be logical or illogical I think one would have to admit it's been struggling with that question for you know over 1500 years now and without completely satisfactory results whereas I've almost never really heard someone argue that biblical Unitarianism is philosophically or logically inconsistent and so I think that Unitarianism is more philosophically um defensible and understandable whereas trinitarianism struggles with um accusations of incoherence and stuff like that and so have you read um James Anderson's Paradox and Christian theology I've I've actually heard you mention it and because of you I was aware of it and I know that him and D tuy went at it right yeah yeah never got to read his entire Treatise and get deep down into the nitty-gritty yeah so in in the introductory section of the book he notes how every heresy every last one of them is rooted in rationalism it's rooted in trying to make sense of God in a way that we can perfectly explain so they leave no room for mystery they leave no room for God to be bigger than us we have to be able to understand God and when that becomes your standard then you know I submit that God should worship you rather than you worship God because if I could explain God and you know the Bible calls him ineffable the Bible says his ways are not our ways his thoughts are not our thoughts if we could explain him that he should be bowing down and worshiping us but that's not the case so and since he mentioned Muslims and he says how Muslims think that the Trinity is irrational incoherent but on the flip side for the Muslims it's a heart of blasphemy the heart of blasphemy that a mere human creature because this is what he's positing and if he's going to now appeal to the Muslims and I'm going to appeal to same Muslim show that to them his position is Blasphemous ID olist because they're saying a mere human creature died to save the world from their sins and a mere human creature has been exalted to reign as Lord From Heaven itself on the throne of God and a mere human creature has been authorized to receive worship from angels and men and be prayed to for Muslims that is hideous blasphemy and idolatry you see that consistency yeah absolutely dishonesty absolutely all right let's continue oh uh that that's basically my presentation um I I'll quote here from acts two just to bring up the Bible a little bit I think that this is one of the texts that LS and I will wrestle with later um but this is when Peter is uh standing in Jerusalem right at Pentecost so the uh Apostles have just received the Holy Spirit and Peter standing up in Jerusalem uh standing with the 11 lifted his voice and addressed them men of Judah and all who dwell in Jerusalem let this be known to you and give Year to my word for these people are not drunk right they've just been sort of speaking in tongues skipping ahead to verse 22 men of Israel hear these words Jesus of Nazareth a man attested to you by God with Mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst as you yourselves know this Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and forn knowledge of God you crucified and killed by the hands of Lawless men so Jesus here is just described as a man there's no hint of a man who a god became man or some divine nature or something it's just a man and there's no reason to you know give any elaboration but why why does every passage have to have everything in it yeah but here's what the sad thing is brother that passage actually does Show Jesus as the God man he's lying through his teeth again this is the problem when we Christians let them get away with murder and we don't open up the Bible and show them hold on hold on let's read the context so this is why context is key what do you expect Peter to begin with here our group of Jews it's 50 days after Jesus's crucifixion it's the day of Pentecost Jews don't in Jesus who are now believing and are convinced he's a false Messiah because he was killed by the Romans and buried so you want Peter to start off with hey Jesus the god whom God worked through and Vindicated by signs and wonders or is he going to start with commonality things they can agree we both agree as a man right yeah we both agree that he did Miracles that you yourselves witnessed and saw which I'm telling you was because God was working through him you may deny that and we both agree he was killed but he doesn't stop there this is the problem not with the unitarians with us trinitarians because we don't read context because I have yet to see I'm not saying they're not there I have yet to see a Christian open up the chapter say hold on can we read the context because Peter goes from affirming what they both would agree and hold in common Jesus is a man who did Miracles which Peter uses as proof that God was working through him not that he was a sorcerer empowered by Satan but he then goes on to show that Jesus is that Yahweh whom the prophet Joel says would pour out the Holy Spirit and whose name you'd have to call upon to be saved because if you go to acts two and again I can't share screen share but the brother can if he wants to to show how you can demolish this heretic and his Blas Acts chapter 2 if you open up Acts chapter 2 you'll see in Acts chapter 2 he quotes the prophecy of Joel Joel 2: 28-32 he quotes that after the Jews are wondering how are these men speaking our particular dialect perfectly flawlessly when they're galileans and some thought they were drunk he goes this is fulfilling what Joel said God would pour out his Spirit upon a servant so in Acts 2 if you start at 16 and read to 21 ver if you want to look at it because the screen's too small for my eyes Mis yep 16 to 21 what does it say brother all right so it says but this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel and in the last days it shall be God declares that I will pour out my spirit on All Flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my spirit and they shall prophesy and I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below blood and fire and Vapor of smoke the sun shall be turned to Darkness and the moon to blood before the day of the Lord comes the great and magnificent day and it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved now let's break down the implication of this prophecy that Peter is appealing to he's saying Joel announced God would pour out a spirit upon his servants male and female servants now why is Peter appealing to that to show that Jesus is alive he's not dead he's not a false Messiah so if you don't mind brother if I you want me to unpack it to bring out the meat that's up to you yes all right let's unpack the meat who spoke in tongues miraculously languages that the Jews were hearing now the miracle if you read acts two you got to step back and read what the miracle was you had a bunch of Jews and Gentile converts from under Heaven that's what Acts 2:5 says if you start from acts 25 all the way to 13 it says that there were Jews from under Heaven represented from Persia from Iraq you name it all of these Jews would have had their own unique dialects but when the Jews are hearing the apostles each person is hearing them speak in his or her dialect flawlessly so I'm hearing them speak my dialect Nick is hearing them speak his dialect and we're all blown away because we know that's not humanly possible they're galileans but I'm hearing them speak let's say Turkish you're hearing them speak Persian that woman over there is hearing them speak Swahili how is that possible so they're seeing a miracle they cannot deny they're seeing the miracle and then Peter says you know why because the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled what do you mean the prophecy of Joel has been fulfilled no actually your your mother's boyfriend's not here Crusader for Christ that fat guy the Shia who fathered you is not here so go look for fatty okay you little cow sorry about that brother but just you see multitask add now coming back to you so the prophecy of Joel is fulfilled because you're witnessing a miracle because the Holy Spirit has filled us but the prophecy said that God would pour out the Holy Spirit on his Serv so now the Jews have to address the issue and are confronted with the fact if Jesus is a false Messiah why is it his disciples and no one else are being filled with the Holy Spirit of all the groups it's not the Pharisees and their followers it's not John the Baptist disciples it's us the followers of Jesus whom you killed that's what he says if Jesus is a false Messiah why did God honor his disciples by filling them and no one else with the Holy Spirit see that's the first sign see what he's doing here he's now making a case well that means Jesus isn't a false Messiah because God does not honor false Messiahs well that means he's not dead because you know you you've been a form the tomb is empty the body's gone and we're going to tell you why because he was raised in the flesh and he ascended In the Flesh heav and he's alive because he's alive we now have received the spirit in Vindication of his claims that he is who he claimed to be so now that we got that out of the way then Peter goes on to explain notice who pours out the Holy Spirit if you read acts 21718 God pours out the Holy Spirit not a glorified human an intermediate Heavenly creature God pours out his Spirit secondly notice whose name you have to call on the name of the Lord Yahweh not the name of a glorified man or an intermediate Heavenly creature this is where now Peter's going to prove the Trinity he first starts off with by showing Jesus is a man can't deny did Miracles can't deny and then he will show Jesus is more than a man he's God In the Flesh but he's not the father or Spirit where does he do that now brother if you can pick it up from Acts 2 31 to 38 read it now you're going to see the Trinity here so it says that he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of Christ that he was not abandoned to Hades nor did his flesh see corruption this Jesus God raised up and of that we are all Witnesses being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing confusing me Nick Peter just said when Jesus went to heaven he received from the father so he's not the father the Holy Spirit and then Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit but the prophecy said Yahweh is going to pour out his holy spirit yeah what happened here Nick well I think it's telling us that Jesus is Yahweh but notice he's not the father so that means father and son are both Yahweh correct so the father is Yahweh from whom the spirit is poured and Jesus is Yahweh the The God Who pours out the spirit but Joel didn't say God would use a glor GL ified man in heaven to pour out his Spirit the prophecy quoted says God would pour out his spirit and yet Peter says that God is the father who gave the spirit to the Son and the son is The God Who then poured out the spirit that's what it says but then whose name are you supposed to call on to be saved well acts 2:21 which Peter cited says call on the name of Yahweh not a creature but then notice what Peter says whose name are you to call I'll keep reading says for David did not Ascend into the heavens but he himself says the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your foot stol and let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ this Jesus whom you crucified now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the Apostles Brothers what shall we do and Peter said to them repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the Forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit now Nick you confuse me more didn't Peter just quote acts in Acts 2 1721 the prophecy of Joel 22 to 32 words says God will pour out the spirit and you need to call on the name of Yahweh to be saved but then Peter and here say that you need to repent turn and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and then you'll be given the Holy Spirit that's what he said but the prophecy and Joel didn't say the name of Jesus Christ or a glorified human or an Angelic preacher Sayes you got to call on the name invoke the name of Yahweh to be saved to receive the Holy Spirit but he says that Yahweh whose name you invoke to receive forgiveness sins and the gift of the holy spirit is Jesus so you're telling me he just identify Jesus as y in the flesh yep that's what it appears to be and yet he's not the Holy Spirit not at all and not the father no sir and that's three huh three there's your Trinity in act to so what is this guy talking about yeah amen amen I hope you're like I like your Expressions you know they're cool I would just note though you know even if let let's say let's say you couldn't have shown the Trinity In this passage yeah let's say we're reading it completely without context right we just want to cherry pick a verse here or there the unarian always seems to think that it's some kind of dunk on the trinitarian when they find a passage that says Jesus is human but nobody's denying that Jesus is human you know that's part of what it is to be a trinitarian is that God took on flesh you know God became incarnate so I I really it it just always boggles my mind that they think that somehow hurts our position yep precisely but the way Dale tuy finesses it he's saying look in the the sermon preached by Peter and Pentecost here instead of affirming the tri nature of God he preaches what is the basic gospel message that Jesus is a man empowered by God who's been exalted that's the gospel see that's what they're trying to say see the gospel is Jesus is a man appointed by God exalted by God glorified by God no more no less no that's not all he preaches absolutely be that as it me now again I don't want to keep stopping you let me know I was just listening in but when he asked me to join I couldn't help yeah listen listen I I enjoy it I know everyone else is learning so I'm learning let let me ask you this before we before we press play your recall of scripture do you have a photographic memory or this is just from over and over again no no you asked that I realized in the 90s when I started doing Ministry because you had mentioned that one of the videos where you overpraise me the Lord bless you for that may I stay humble and teachable May we love Jesus Christ Our Lord by our Deeds until he summons Us in the '90s I realized that when I would have a conversation about the faith so if you're talking to me verses would pop in my mind so to just clarify when I came back to the faith in the 90s I read the Bible all the way through I believe I started with NIV then King James so I read it twice within a few years so I started with NIV just so I can understand what I was reading or I think I start with the King James and NIV I I I read both but I know that I read NIV so I can understand the Elizabethan language of the King James I don't know if I started with NIV or King James I think I did King James NIV anyway because I read it twice through I didn't make any effort to try to memorize scripture I wasn't like doing any techniques I realized that as you would speak to me even back then and I have people here who who remember me from the 90s who remember when I used to teach years ago so when people say oh it's because of years and years well I know people have been doing it 30 40 years and they don't recall it so that's why I don't take credit for it it's not something I worked at it's just one of the gifts that I believe the way God designed my brain maybe I have ADD whatever maybe I'm the Spectrum but God can use that right absolutely I would be speaking to you and you talk to me and verses would pop in my mind and that's what happens now as I'm hearing just like in the 90s I'm already seeing in my mind's eyes versus popping up so whenever he speaks that's why I stop people a lot of people wonder why I stop people because number one I don't want them go on tangents and number two I want to nail them right when they make a mistake this is how my brain is wired so as you're talking to me and the moment you say something versus pop up I need to stop and say wait wait who who who because if you speak for 20 minutes all these verses will be running in my head and then you may bring up 20 points without me addressing the first point and then the second point and the third point and the fourth point so this is another reason why I stop people before they proceed so I can nail them like here like when you said acts two stop let's nail this guy so that's what it was so I give God the glory I believe that's how he wired me I think he wired me physiologically right my brain chemical reactions in this way that it facilitates recall of scripture without me making an effort that's awesome and yeah let me just clarify when when I do Heap the praise upon you it's it's it's because of the way that God is working in you amen he get I yeah I understand completely that apart from God you know you wouldn't have these gifts and abilities so love you I appreciate what you do but to God be the glory amen I know that but I just I have to always check my spirit because you know how it is with Satan he wants us to get puffed up become useless absolutely I'm not prone I've seen better men of God than I can imagine to be fall because of that you know what I'm talking about we've seen great men what impacts get destroyed because they started believing the hype may Jesus protect you and I and fill us with the spirit whether I like what I'm not what I'm not said this guy character amen Sam one day you'll be useful for Chan just keep working it out brother one day that's right one day you'll be handsome too one day amen all right let's keep going I gotta get that screen back hold on one second present amen Tony I may be that's because remember people on Spectrum autism and add though that's a deficient one era it then hypens right it Hypes up I should say other areas that God then can work through for his glory so glory to God go ahead amen that this has happened to God's plan and for knowledge so again that idea that Jesus was known in God's for knowledge but he didn't exist actually and then skipping ahead a little bit um to verse 32 this Jesus God raised up and of we are all Witnesses being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit he has poured this out on all that you are seeing and hearing and then skipping to verse 36 let all the house of Israel know uh let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord in Christ this Jesus whom you crucified so a big difference between a trinitarian and a unarian a unarian will say that Jesus gets exalted into heaven after his crucifixion and Resurrection but he has not been there before he's being exalted to a new place and that there's this transformation in the Heavenly authorities this transformation in the cosmos that happens when Jesus a man is resurrected and then exalted to the right hand of God and so that's really the core of our Theology and I think that this acts two passage is particularly clear and supporting that and that also connect it right at the moment that Christianity is first being proclaimed in Jerusalem at the uh event of Pentecost so with that I'll I'll end my uh my presentation I think that's clearly butchered his misreading of the text because he ignored the fact that Jesus is identified as a man but then later on Old Testament text about Yahweh pouring out his Spirit on his servants and calling on the name of Yahweh are now applied to Jesus thereby identifying Yahweh Jesus as Yahweh In the Flesh one with the father and spirit but beyond that this assertion that well Jesus was exalted after his crucifixion Resurrection to this position but it's not something he had prior because there's no prehuman existence of Christ that's basically the gist well number one the text doesn't say that Christ did not have a prean existence and number two what do you expect Peter to say that Jesus who's in a state of humbleness who was on Earth in the form of a slave who was then crucified and killed and not functioning in his role as Sovereign Lord what do you expect him to say that Jesus was already functioning as Lord as Sovereign poent on earth when he assumed a position that would make possible his death burial and Resurrection I mean I I don't understand what they he was made Lord in Christ well of course because he went from being a slave on Earth humbling himself to death with now God honoring that willful act of humiliation by exalting him to a status and position that if it wasn't his intrinsically what do I mean if Jesus is just a man for him to be then exalted to the status position glory and worship of Yahweh then that means we now have a disconnect with the Old Testament because the New Testament is now saying what the Old Testament expressly condemns that God has exalted a man to share in his status his glory his sovereignty his position and worship but the entire message of the Old Testament goes out out of its way to show there is none like Yahweh who sits in Throne on high his name alone is exalted not that Yahweh will allow some creature to share in his exaltation his glory and worship so you have the New Testament contradicting the Old Testament according to these Heretics yeah absolutely and you know it doesn't make heads or Tales of passages like Philippians 2 or uh Hebrews 1 John 1 to say that he hasn't been in heaven prior to this even um what Ephesians four right when he says he goes down to the lower parts of the earth yes from where yeah the only thing with Philippians too they you know the argument they use James DG dun whom you know very well and use Adam christology for that one that's that's how they that it's it's it's never worked it's never worked nonsense it's and it's sad that dun was influential and because of his influence christology in the making a lot of people may not know we talk on James DG G done was considered a conservative Conservative Christian who professed have faith and love and worship of the Trinity but he wrote a book christology in the making where he tries to go out of his way that the teaching of Christ Divine prehuman existence that Christ actually existed as a Divine person before he became flesh can only be found explicitly and Ambiguously in John and then he seeks to explain away all the other passages in the gospels and Paul to show no this is not affirming real pre-existence but ideal pre-existence and sadly he had a great influence and impact I don't know why yeah I don't know why do you know why I don't know why I I really don't I really don't and then you know all you got to do is get a healthy dose of herado or balam it should disabuse you have done and then I recommend to everybody watching to read Chris tilling he's got a book Paul's Divine christology get that and it'll shut everybody else up because it's the best book in the last 30 years to come out on the subject so all right let's get back into them all right okay very helpful in knowing where you're coming from really appreciate that okay so what I'll do is just hey I'm G to get off the screen and let y'all have a discussion however you want everybody hold off on your questions until towards the end I'll let you know in the comment section when you can start asking your questions so okay if y'all are ready to dive in let me get out of the way by the way so you know I have some comments about some of the things that one more time long how long did you plan to make the stream so I don't torture you and make it longer than necessary oh as long as it needs to be I mean I I could go I'm East Coast so it's 9:17 my time um as long as I'm off here by like midnight at the latest all right okay so that means you can go for three hours huh all right brother let me then go ahead just wanted to make sure all right that you said uh so for the people listening we decided to go with a more informal structure so it's not like a a structured debate where you know people we have equal opening statements and stuff I'm just gonna we're just taking things as we go so um so when with regards to the stuff you mention regarding Unitarianism protestantism Catholicism so I do have um a sort of like a meta argument for uh why I believe in trinitarianism and it has and it's connected to I believe in Catholicism more generally uh so you mentioned the fact that you find uh un as a Unitarian you find easier to dialogue with Catholics and Orthodox which I find to be a big compliment and you mentioned that in many ways you find similarities between us uh we can get into how similar uh some of those actually are but I find that Unitarianism on the whole the fundamental premise uh that unitarium Unitarianism um has is basically the same as every other form of protestantism and I want to say the bat a lot of Protestants are going to be offended when they hear that because they don't like to claim unitarians as their own but you know uh Unitarianism fundamental premises are indeed Protestant and that fundamental premise is the way you look at you know history in general because uh as a Unitarian um you'd have to say that if you look at church history it's the gradual slide of Christ I just want to point out for those not familiar um really this brand of Unitarianism it comes out of the radical Reformation so these were the guys saying you know no Creed but the Bible they were really the solo scrip Tor types and you know he wants to say there's people in the second century that believed what he believes but they they really didn't believe what he believes the ones he's talking about this is post-reformation uh you're familiar with the rovian catechism Sam yes yes like that stuff it's it's polish um like Eastern European rationalism so it's it's very late in church history so that's why he's saying um Lewis is saying that he Brands it a form of protestantism although you know many any Orthodox Protestant is going to obviously disagree but it's true no but it's a true statement historically came out of the Protestant Reformation absolutely so Christianity from a state of Purity to heterodoxy or a more corrupted version of itself and and uh and you know and you have to apply that to something as fundamental as the nature of God now if you talk to a lot of more mainstream Protestants they do have a similar Outlook when it comes to the history of Christianity they believe that uh oh you know you have the pure Christianity of the early church but then at some point along the road and Protestants tend to differ amongst themselves as to when exactly that happened uh you have this gradual slide into heresy and apostasy so you know one of the popular polemics for example is it happen and sometime uh during the reign of Constantine or some might put it even later than that um now as a Catholic one of my one of the fundamental premises that I operate out of is the idea of the indect ability of the church so the holy spirit is guiding the church um throughout all of history which means that whatever doctrinal controversies will happen along the way the truth will always come out on top and that also means that if there is any doctrinal development that happens along the way uh one of the um cories of the infectability of the church is that whatever the end result of that doctrinal development is um that must be what God will to take place which means in the context of our discussion that you know I'm willing to grant that uh trinitarian theology developed over time that the earliest Christians didn't have a fully orbed uh trinitarian theology but what I would say is that you get the seeds of trinitarian theology in the first Century that those so that I I would disagree with that I don't I don't think that nying trinitarianism because if that's the case you want to make then we could say that they didn't even have a fully orbed trinitarian theology in Nia you know they didn't know anything about Carl roner or Carl Bart or um Robert Jensen or wul har pannenberg or any of these guys so for me if if it's not in the scriptures first yes it's it's not there at all yeah that's in fact that's what let Nick and I to trinitarian scripture because we came out of protestantism solos scripture Toto scripture so my belief in the Trinity is fashion and shaped by scripture right but obviously the articulation of the Trinity is something that has impacted all of us whether we know it or not through the theological discussions debates throughout the centuries but scripture is primary even for the Catholics and Orthodox scripture is primary absolutely sole infallible rule of Faith but it's primary so that it cannot contradict scripture and in this case since it's such a crucial aspect of what it is to be a Christian it must be anchored in scripture but what did he say again I didn't catch what I didn't really understand what D was saying about that you took issue with what was his Point again there if you he was he was saying he'll grant that the doctrine developed and that in scripture we only have the seeds of it so he's saying we really don't have the doctrine of the Trinity until you know he's he's basically granting um Sam's Point that we don't have till the latter part of the 4th century No let say the you know the seeds are there but because of the church uh we got to trust the church and yeah we do have to trust the church because you know the the same church that recognized the Canon and gave us the scriptures that were all appealing to is the same church that confessed the trinity but to to say that it's not really in the Bible yes you know that I take issue with that no I do I want to elaborate on that this was one of because when I used to be more staunchly anti- Catholic anti- Orthodox one of the things that used to upset me is when the Catholics would argue that for example to justify let's say certain doctrines that are not as explicitly taught in scripture let's say the Assumption of Mary they would say that that Doctrine about the Assumption of Mary is not taught explicitly in scripture and it may be inferred but that's no more of a problem because we have something akin to Doctrine Trinity it's not taught explicitly in Scripture it may be implicit so it took the church to then formulate the doctrine of the Trinity so therefore that same church who had that same Divine warrant to then formulate the doctrine of the Trinity though not explicitly on scripture also has the same Divine warrant to infer from what scripture says albeit not explicitly that Mary was assumed see this kind of argumentation is not good Orthodox and Catholic and we're and we're saying this from those who are in love with the Orthodox Catholic traditions and you guys I go to the Catholic Church stop that argument because from Genesis to Revelation you will find plentiful of evidence and even the early church which is ironic you're saying early church go read the writings of tertullian go read the writings Justin Martyr go read the writings of hpus or nav they are citing the Old Testament let alone the New Testament to show there's a plurality of divine persons in the godhead they cite Psalm 110 Psalm 45 Genesis 19 Genesis 126 and on and on it goes so the early church did not think that you could not establish that there are multiple Divine persons three in fact from the Old and New Testaments so why would you then argue in a manner that goes against that very early church that you're appealing to that then codified the cannon and came up with the doctrine yeah that doesn't make sense to me it's uh inconsistent and it's not and he's you know there there's the presuppositional apologetic where you grant the argument just to show the inconsistency of it he's not doing that though and that that bothered me about what he says here and by the way Nick he's not the only one even Trent horn would say that now sadly that's from the Catholic side now you have from the Protestant side they would not say that it's implicit in scripture they'll say it's explicit in New Testament but implicit in the Old Testament that would be like James White or BB Warfield yeah reveal between the Testaments and yeah yep no good all right exactly incate ideas that would later blossom into the n Creed or the Athenian Creed already uh was present there and it was just a matter of trying to work out the implication so I would see logos uh christology such as what was advocated by the likes of julan or Justin Martyr as sort of like laying the groundwork for trinitarianism rather than a completely separate um theological view that is unrelated to it and the reason why I believe that of course you know the standard text that I would cite in any debate that I might have with a Protestant would be text such as uh Matthew 1618 where says I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not Prevail against it so because we're trying to chime in I guess this is a discussion a review of discussion notice what Lewis is now doing he's no longer arguing I'm not saying it's bad I just want understand watch what he's trying to do he's not not arguing for the biblical basis for the Trinity that it's explicit and clear if you do honest exegesis of the historical grammatical cultural context of the passages he's arguing for the fact that the very scriptures that this man takes to be the inspired revelation of God understand what he's doing those very scriptures swore that the Church of Christ would remain indect I want you to understand his argument it may have because we've been cutting him off so you understand what he's trying to say since the scriptures that this man named Sam my name's sake appeals to as the inspired authoritative infallible words of God and he operates under solar scriptura to scriptura says that the church that Jesus established would be preserved by the spirit from the time of our Lord's Ascension till he returns which means that the spirit will always make sure to raise up true Servants of God like the Bishops because the Bible says the Bishops replaced the apostles they were their replacement to expose heresies condemn heresies and expose Heretics preserve the truth truth and preserve the scriptures then historically when we look at that church that church was the church that gave us the doctrine of the Trinity this is what he's arguing for yeah you understand this is his argument I want you understand what his argument is so he's trying to Corn him say what do you say then if you're saying the Trinity is not scriptural the Trinity is a perversion of the Bible then what do you do with the promises of Jesus that the True Believers the true church would conquer and never be conquered and when we look at historically what those true Christian chrans taught they taught the doctrine of the Trinity yeah yep yeah that's that's actually going to come up in a couple of minutes so very good observation but you know it the reasoning is sound it's like you trust them to give you the scriptures that you're arguing from but you don't trust them in how they interpreted those scriptures so it's like how do you know how do you how do you pick and choose exactly by the way I haven't watched this discussion I'm watching it live with him now so guys just keep that in mind yep uh I would understand that to be Christ promising that he would always lead the church um correctly and would not allow heresy or false Doctrine to overtake it another such text would be Matthew 8 2820 where Christ says that um you know I will be with you always even to the End of the Age so as a Catholic I find it difficult to um fathom the idea that uh Christ would allow uh Doctrine to infect his community at such a deep level and on something as fundamental as the nature of God uh it's one thing if maybe uh or the early church got it wrong on some minor point of theology but not on like the central dogma of the faith uh so I'd be interested to see how um Sam interacts with that sort of philosophy of history and what His Rebel to that would be and on this topic I do want to talk as well about the idea of Unitarian devotion of Jesus and whether it is uh similar to Catholic Devotion to Mary I could sort of see how a Unitarian would conclude that um given a lot of the High Praise that a lot of Catholics bestow upon Mary but at the same time one of the arguments I would make is that if you look at some of the things that are attributed to Jesus in the New Testament they are way higher than anything any Catholic would say about Mary so for example uh forgiveness of sins no Catholic believes that Mary could can forgive sins but that's exactly what uh we see Christ uh doing in the gospel of Mark among other things and no Catholic would uh refer to uh Mary as God with the definite article which happens multiple times uh throughout the New Testament and definitely no Catholic will attribute Old Testament Yahweh texts to Mary uh which is uh what we see the New Testament doing to Jesus and later on down the road Lord willing we're going to delve into um some of those specific texts but basically I think that uh the New Testament Devotion to Jesus goes way higher than what any Catholic would ascribe to Mary which for me breaks the Symmetry between uh the way you view Jesus and the way we view uh the Blessed Mother so I'll save some of my other texts my other comments for um later on but maybe you can interact now with what I just said sure I'll I'll take that um historical question first yeah I'm not going to lie biblical Unitarianism comes with a certain black pill that is not particularly fun to swallow about the history of Christian like I said one of my reasons for being a Biblical unarian was the historical argument so like biblical unitarians can be like man early Christianity really seems at least strongly supportive if not definitively on our side but we have like this Thousand-Year Gap where as far as I can tell we really don't particularly exist except for perhaps the the some odd Theologian every once in a while who seems to come to this conclusion and then pretty quickly get burnt uh and then you know it reappears so there's like how to make sense of Christian history I I will say don't view the Catholic Church as in a state of apostasy I wouldn't say it's not Christian um you know like one thing I should say I'm not a Unitarian Universe I I think he's kind of sidest stepping the issue though you know like he said there there you have this thousand year Gap allegedly where nobody believes what he believes so I mean I guess you can argue that you know everyone wants to point to Elijah and Elijah says I'm the last one and God says I have 7,000 that you don't know anything about but the fact remains that we could at least identify Elijah yeah so where's where's the unarian Elijah throughout church history did he did he mention that he didn't mention that yet um I think he might bring that up yeah that actually proves your point because what he's saying if you understand what Nick is saying during the Old Testament period God was faithful to raise up true prophets filled to the spirit and then they were tested by signs and wonders that they were speaking from God to expose heresies so if the trinitarian doctrine is a heresy where are the Elijah and the Elisha of the early church to condemn it and secondly why is it trinitarianism is triumphing over what he claims to be the true biblical monotheism because he just said for a thousand years he just admitted he just told you for over a thousand years he cannot find his brand of monotheism which means that trinitarianism is vanquishing triumphing right conquering all these other forms and understandings of the nature of God but if the promises of Jesus are true such should not be the case No it should not be the case right this is the Lewis's argument it's in Jesus War the spirit will always raise up the Elijah and the Elisha and the Isaiah and the Micah of the church not saying they'll be prophets but true Bishops empowered by the spirit to call out heresies and Vanquish them but he just admit his view could cannot be demonstrated right in the first thousand years and basically admitting that trinitarianism is triumphing and it's still triumphs to this day why if God is faithful and the church is infectable and God will not allow the church to fail yeah Amen brother amen first let like some of those churches that you might see with all the political symbols and stuff like that but I will say that unitarians can be a little bit nice and accommodating in that kind of way that we can view other uh pieces of Christianity as Christian although mistaken and I think that when you look at history as a whole there are all sorts of questions why you can ask why things happen that way why are there so many times in the Old Testament where Israel seems to abandon God why does it sometimes seem like the true Jewish faith is down to like a small tiny handful of individuals or something and you know the majority of the establishment has completely lost the plot why do Israelites keep worshiping false Gods why they get taken to Babylon you know etc etc you know the Old Testament is kind of full of a lot of ups and downs and a lot of wees and Bobs yep okay notice what a terrible pathetic argument he's giving uh he's saying see well if you read Old Testament history you find that Israel is fallowing apostasy and worshiping God but then he just refuted himself he answered his own objection what did God to do do to that Nation he punished Israel sent them into captivity he destroyed the northern kingdom and then the southern kingdom was taken into Babylon captivity and even throughout that time the true prophets of God were there warning the Israelites warning the Jews of their apostasy of their immorality and calling them to repentance so God still did not fail to summon the people to the truth to the correct Doctrine and correct living and so that when they refused to hear then God handed them over to discipline and destruction which then results in Jesus showing up and telling Israel this is your last chance if you don't get it right the kingdom will be taken away from you and given to a nation that bears fruit and so when they did not Embrace Christ as a whole when the whole nation not repent what did the Lord do destroyed Jerusalem destroyed the temple scattered the Jews and then what became triumphant Victorious and prominent the church so then again I want to ask him this very objection which you use which you thought helped your case actually buries your position because I want to know throughout that 2,000 years or the 1500 years before Protestant Reformation where are the Elijah the Elisha the Isaiah their Jeremiah's to warn apostate Christians that their view of God is heretical and false and idolatrous why is God allowing the Trinity to Triumph so that to this day the dominant view is a trinitarian view that doesn't help his case no not at all that exactly in the right direction one could ask why did God even from a Catholic perspective why did God let the Orthodox get off track you know we lost basically half the geographical region of Christianity why did God let the Protestant Reformation happen even from a Catholic perspective there's still why did God let Islam come in steal huge amounts of Christian territory and people as well and have its influence all over the world so I think that the questions of History yes so now he's using the problem of evil yeah to because he's saying why well that's because this actually now makes my case again when the church became too political or divided over issues to the point where they started ostracizing and condemning one another that's when the Lord in his anger allows something like Islam comes and to beat the church into repentance but then that still makes my case not his if trinitarianism is a false Doctrine why is trinitarianism still triumphing even in lands owned by Muslims where the Muslims are killing Christians enslaving Christians so pressing Christians and yet they could not snuff out trinitarian Christianity even in the East dominated by Islam why is it still trinitarian churches survive where are the Aryan churches where are the Unitarian churches because to this day you have the Coptic Church they're trinitarian I believe Jesus Is God In the Flesh you have the Assyrian Church they're Trin Arian and believe that Jesus is God In the Flesh you have the mosites the Sak Orthodox they're still flourishing and they're not being conquered or vanquished by Islam whereas Aryans where were they where are they they disappear they resurface here and there but they cannot ever get the dominant position that's not helping his case I don't understand why he doesn't see it's actually making our case because if trinitarianism is a false teaching then one of the doctrines that would go is trinitarianism but instead we see aryanism being wiped out Unitarianism being wiped out modalism being wiped out later on they resurface but they never become dominant whereas what we find is a steady constant stream of trinitarian theology triumphing yes yeah how does this help his case can you help me understand is it help in this space not at all you know and like like you said it's a it's a big black pill for them to swallow so I kind of get it with him right he said he was raised a Biblical unarian so he's never really known anything and he's always read the opposition through the lens of biblical Unitarianism right I hate to even say biblical Unitarianism but you know so he's he's got a certain grid that everything gets filtered through but for those who apostasis and convert to that way of thinking I don't get it for them you know if if you're not tied to it sociologically you know if you're not going to lose your whole family over it or get excommunicated or something like that I don't understand the appeal or you know the arguments to me are not strong at all but I don't know by the way brother to say biblical Unitarianism makes just as much sense as saying chonic trinitarianism yeah absolutely I'm just trying to be uh gracious I'm your bad cup I don't want to say grace is accurate to how they describe themselves all right let's go are difficult but it's not like it's only difficult for unitarians I would have to say something like Christianity has always existed it never really went extinct you could say in the last 2,000 years it's had its ups and downs and it's had various times where I would say the truth was more fully known and more fully believed and less fully known and less fully believed like I mean I could even say Catholicism itself has its ups and downs I mean I think at the time of the Reformation it was it had a lot of corruption it it wasn't great and I think the Catholic church is in a better State now in many ways than it was 500 years ago and so I I don't bam he just made my case I hope you're listening to this review you just provve my point when Catholicism got pretty bad the Lord allowed the scourge of the Reformation to beat them back into repentance so that they can now be in a better state but notice what did not happen the Lord did not destroy the Catholic church he didn't remove it from his presence guys he just made the case but he's speaking so fast I don't think he understood the implications see what he said well you know the Catholic church was pretty bad and that's why the Reformation but now they're much better off 500 years later well you just made the point when the church starts slipping away falling away because God is faithful to the church he will then slap the church wake up the church like a good father takes the rod and disciplines his child and how do he do that the Reformation which forced the Catholic Church to then go back to their roots and reexamine their beliefs and address the objections and now as he said they're better off but one thing did not happen he did not wipe out the Catholic church that's exactly my point if it's true the Lord will discipline the true church but never wipe it out just like Orthodoxy has not been able to be wiped out whether Oriental or Eastern or even the Assyrian church or the cat why because even though they're in Schism historically they all were one sadly the 400s the Assyrian Church became ostracized because of noorus and Theodore and the term Kuma and then you had the mosites but they still have been preserved even in Schism and what's ironic is without the internet without having an iPhone or having an iPad you find they have a higher form of agreement higher degree of agreement than disagreement because all of them believe the Trinity yeah all of them believe Christ is God In the Flesh how they articulate the union that's the difference all of them believe that the son is begotten not made the spirit proceeds obviously we have also the issue of the phing O Oakway but understand among these churches they have more agreement than disagreement without Sol scriptura without to script without the internet even in Schism they all agree in Mary's Purity her Perpetual virginity praying for the dead in Christ intercession of saints Eucharist as the flesh and blood of Christ water baptismal regeneration infant baptism the priesthood they have much more in comment and agreement and they've survived even against impossible odds Y without solar script to scripture and yet these Protestants with solar scripture and to scripture have more disagreements than agreements yeah and the final Point even with the Protestant Reformation the dominant view of the Protestant denominations is the Trinity not Unitarianism so now I want this guy to explain to me if the Trinity is so false why is it Catholics Eastern Orthodox Oriental Orthodox Assyrian church and the majority of Protestant denominations all affirm the Trinity and the most important doctrine that you must get right is the doctrine of God you can be wrong on other issues but you if you have the wrong God your wrong Christ your wrong Spirit the wrong gospel off to hell you go because in 2 Corinthians 11:14 Paul warns us if someone comes and preaches another Jesus from the one we preach or a different Spirit or a different gospel you put up with it easily and that's where Satan will now seduce you and Rob you of your spiritual virginity sorry I know I get loud he's making our for us and he doesn't see it yeah great stuff Sam this Sam Shimon not that s all glory to the CH God because we worship the true God brother amen apostasis Heretics I think I view them more or less as view in many ways than it was 500 years ago and so I I don't view Catholics as evil apostasis Heretics I think I view them more or less as Christians who have some mistaken ideas and errors um but I still would view them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ and so I think that's sort of my short answer would be I have I think that you have to have something like a loose definition of Christianity as a Unitarian but that doesn't mean it you know listen this guy seems like a very nice guy so I'm not I'm not picking on him as a person but it's always you know it's always funny to me when the Heretics say oh you know I won't I won't condemn the Catholics or the Protestants or the Orthodox I I still look at them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ as if that's some consolation that you know they should be just so thankful for that you don't consider them to be in the wrong so by the way to piggy back off what he said this is why Brethren be biblically minded sober minded do not judge a book by C discover meaning you can have someone who's harsh and a jerk like me very loud can be very rude I know may God have mercy on me and forgive me and not give me what I deserve and still be telling you the truth whereas you can have someone nice and sweet and be a tool of the devil yeah so this person's demeanor May disarm you and thinking wow look how Christlike he is but that's the deception now I'm not saying that he knows he's a deceiver not saying that he's deceived and he's ignorant of it of the S of the deception voice it upon Him by Satan until he repents and where am I getting this from if you don't mind brother if you can open up 2 Corinthians 11 Paul warned about Satan himself appearing as an angelite to deceive you from his true identity and then energizing his servants to appear as humble Ministers of righteousness 2 Corinthians 11 11 13 and 15 okay he's going to show it to you right there look this is and before he reads and understand this is Satan's master master strategy of deceiving you en energize enable a false teacher a false Apostle to appear as humble and Pious and spiritual in order to make you think this man can't be wrong look at the love of Christ in him but that's part of the deceit what does it say brother it says for such men are false Apostles deceitful workmen disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ and no wonder for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of Light so it is no surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as Servants of righteousness their end will correspond to their deeds so you don't get any get any clearer than that Paul told you don't judge by appearances and make an unrighteous judgment don't do that because Satan who's considerably smarter than that knows to then energize and enable his servants to appear Pious humble compassionate loving and spiritual because that's that's the con because you'll more likely listen to someone who's gentle and loving than someone who's rude and Loud into your face like this bald dude here but that's not how you determine truth Brethren wake up wake up think biblically be sober minded think God's thoughts after him and be aware of the schemes of saying look how nice he looks look how loving he looks look how humble he looks and yet he's preaching a false Jesus presenting a false gospel and he's empowered by a false Spirit yeah right [Music] hey Sam do you know in streamyard if there's a way you can have multiple things to share so you could switch back and forth or I gota just when you when you do what happens is when you go to one I don't know how to do more more than one at time but when you open up one then you got to go back to your share and bring up the other one again how you did yeah that's the only way I know I don't know of any other way so like if I were to switch to another page I'd have to that close out yeah that's annoying all right mean that I don't care about the truth or care about theology or want the church to come into better understanding of the truth but I don't think God has ever abandoned things why does God let bad things happen that's a that's a question that everyone has to deal with and I don't think it's necessarily any sort of defeat or for Unitarianism so I'll pass it back to you leis yeah so I'm curious then um well first I want to make a comment about the Old Testament um one that you mentioned so yeah I know that uh back in my Pro days one of my arguments was well it happened during Old Testament times majority of the people fell away from the faith but I mean couple of things regarding that one is that uh even during Old Testament times there were always um there was always a faithful remant there was never a point in time when um the true worship of Yahweh was extinguished which to me doesn't seem to be the case with Unitarianism because it seems to me if you look at church history there were actually large expanses of time when there was nobody that held to uh Unitarianism unless they simply left no Mark in can you pause it for a second just I don't mean to keep going out now I haven't watch this now guys look at how amazing this is guys he he knows I haven't watched this I only became aware of it when he said he's gonna review it and I said I gotta listen in guys you see how amazing that that is glory to the triing God glory father Spirit unbe knownst to me Lewis the zone is using the same argument I just used I haven't heard this guys did you catch it he just argued the way I just did in other words I can just shut up and let LS School him it's the same argument huh I didn't know he was going to answer this way he answered the way I just answered but glory to the father son and spirit that we all drink from the same spirit and are sealed by The Same Spirit and worship the same Lord Jesus Christ but anyway go ahead brother amen the similarity between the New Testament and the Old Testament context the other one is that in the under the New Covenant we have an advantage that uh the people in the old Covenant did not have and that is the guidance of the holy spirit so you know how in the famous paraclet passage Jesus says that I will give you the paraclet and he will lead you to all truth because whatever um I speak he will teach etc etc I'm roughly paraphrasing there so to me uh that along with the other couple of text that I cited earlier uh serves to me to be additional proof that God would not allow the church to um go astray on Doctrine and especially not something as fundamental as uh the nature of God so I just want to know know how you interact with some of those passages that I've cited sure I think another thing that I will say you know why why would God let this happen um what about God leading us into all truth in a certain sense I bet that none of us Christians are really all right at the moment uh I'm I perfectly admit I'm probably wrong about many things in many parts of my theology I might not know what they are if I knew what they were I hopefully I would have changed them already but that there is a certain sense I think that all of us don't have it figured out yet and that you know right now we see through glass dark yeah but there there's there's levels of things you cannot have figured out you know not having the Trinity figured out is a much bigger deal than you know not not knowing the uh time of Christ's return or something like that so let me let me add to what you just said guys you see how this is what I call smok and mirors the argument isn't that we're going to have perfect full comprehension of God the argument is that the Lord says let me just Hammer the point the Lord says eternal life is to know you the only true God in Jesus Christ whom you have sent yeah Jesus says this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent so this is necessary for salvation to know the true God as he is and to know Jesus Christ Our Only Lord and then on top of that Jesus says in John 8:24 unless you believe I am you shall die in your sins unless you believe I am I am what Michael Yahweh the older brother of Lucifer the son of Elohim or Yahweh the son one with the father and the spirit believe what about you he says unless you believe I am you shall die in your sins and then we're warned by Paul that one of Satan's Mo modus operandi is to present another Jesus a different Spirit a different gospel so that if God is faithful to preserve the truth that leads to eternal life and that truth encompasses knowing who the true God is that saves you then that means one area the church will not a in is who God is is he Triune is he one person is Jesus God in the flesh is he a man no one is arguing that you must have full comprehension of that reality what we're saying is that God will not allow you to have a wrong God a wrong Jesus a wrong spirit because the wrong God wrong Jesus wrong Spirit can't save anyone but he can't address the issues as they are because he knows he's going to bury himself deeper into the hole yeah yeah and that's that's the fallacy right so you know I've spent the last 20 something years in Pentecostal churches and we cross paths with one is Pentecostals all the time and you can't tell the difference until you start talking about who Jesus is and the one thing I would hear over and over over and over again is well you know you can't say that they're not Christians or they're not saved just because they don't understand the Trinity or just because they don't believe the Trinity and I was always like forget what they don't believe forget what they don't understand let's look at what they do believe and what they do claim to understand is that consistent with what the Bible teaches is that consistent with who God has revealed himself to be and if it's not then why do we grant them would pass when we wouldn't Grant the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormon or the Muslim would pass you know so and it's only later that we get to see things face to face and so in a certain sense it's not like I think true Christianity was around it went extinct and now we've brought it back I mean we're attempting to bring it back we're attempting to grow in full truth and stuff like that we're attempting to listen to the Holy Spirit he said I don't think we brought it back but we're attempting to bring it back so it's it's lost so yeah it's lost but they they failed in what they tried to do and they're still trying so so he just ended up making Lewis's Point again so if we're attempting to bring back true Christianity to attempt to bring something back means you lost it but then but Jesus swore that he would be building his church Gates of Hades would not Prevail against the church the spirit would guide the church into all truth and that again other passages that Lewis could have quoted Acts 20253 2 that the Holy Spirit has appointed the Bishops to replace the apostles after their departure to oversee the Church of God which he purchased with own blood to protect the flock from wolves and those among them who' fall away damning people with false teaching and on on and on it goes that means the true form of Christianity could never have been lost but he just said we're attempting to bring him back which means it's lost so then what do you do with the promises of scripture see the guy's not listening so he is refuting himself he is actually slandering the scriptures and basically indirectly accusing God of being a failure because that's what you have to argue for and by the way if you think I'm exaggerating what do you think the Joe's Witnesses believe the Mormons believe the campbellites believed the Adventists believed these restoration movements that start 1800s their number one argument was that by the time the last Apostle died the church became corrupt and apost and that the Lord had to then restore the church but he waited 1,700 years later at least they're honest and consistent that's what they believe he doesn't want to come out and say that because he's going to look bad because that means he doesn't believe the promises of scripture yeah and you know sadly they're they're taking their cues from Luther because Luther believed that he had to restore the gospel so yes Luther was restoration is contrary to what Protestants want to say they don't like to say that because if you ask wait wait so if the gospel had to be restored by Luther you're telling me the gospel is lost for how many centuries and if they didn't have the gospel how could anyone be saved so you're no better than these cult groups that sprung up in the 1800s absolutely but we in a certain sense that that isn't perfected yet in any of us the Catholic Church unarian churches other Protestant churches Etc and so I I think that that that's one possible answer that I can give is that um the state of Christians being in not full knowledge has always been true and is still true uh I would actually agree with that to an extent we'd always have to be revising our beliefs in light of new evidence and you're right we don't have it all figured out I'm probably wrong in a few things but I think we differ on that's sound like Seer refand from the Catholic guy yeah now remember he did he was a fivepoint calvinist who was highly influenced by calvinist like I know him when he was a calvinist I knew and one of his influences with James White he also Tony Costa cona is a reformed fivepoint B Reformed Baptist so yes he still has the elements of Reform theology that the Lord is purging him of sure but this saying yeah I may have been wrong at something no he wasn't Lewis you were spot on the money spot on you just needed to make your case a little more forcefully but be that as it may yeah yeah that's what you're saying that calvinist reformed background sometimes coming to the surface sure and it's it's hard to shed for all of us so and the degree to which we probably don't have something figured out because I think I might be wrong on some areas of minua maybe my exegesis of some uh passage or my understanding of some tertiary doctrinal issue might be off uh I don't think that again going back to my main point I don't think that I am mistaken on uh the fundamentals like stuff like what is at the very core of the faith because um if I am then you know I think that would require something a lot uh more drastic than a simple realignment it's almost like another conversion you would say and that's where I think we differ in our understanding of leading to all truth because I don't think it means I mean I agree with you it doesn't mean that uh we'll all have it figured out but I think it at least it means that the important stuff um we shouldn't expect the church to go astray beautiful let let me just Hammer this you see excellent see he comes very nice in order to then pulverize you in a nice manner you see what he said yeah tertiary issues I can be wrong but when it comes to the core fundamental doctrines I don't think I'm wrong excellent that's the point I was making yeah now why I'm rejoicing because glory to Jesus Christ when I see another brother from a similar tradition to mind whether Catholic or Orthodox making the same argument that blesses my heart that because that shows I'm on the right path as well it just reassures me that we're both listening to The Same Spirit drinking from the same spiritual Fountain glory to the father ho Spirit you see his point yes on tertiary secondary issues for example should we sprinkle three times or immerse someone fully in water right should we sprinkle when we baptize or or Merc fly we can argue that and agree to disagree that's tery or should it be leaven bread or unleavened bread for the Eucharist but when it comes to the core foundational doctrines is the Eucharist the flesh and blood of Christ and do we baptize in the trinitarian formula father son holy spirit that is not tertiary that is essential and primary and in those areas we'd expect that God will preserve those core foundational teachings spot on Le I'm g kiss yourl amen I guess another one other point that I'll make is that wait did you just say something about his hairline yeah I kiss say balding receding her because he's going bald you that one slipped past me for a second there was a delay in my hearing it I think that a lot of trinitarians aren't as trinitarian as they seem I think that if you like there there are those theological surveys where they'll ask people including Catholics like what do you actually believe and they'll say things like Jesus was uh not God but just a man and a good teacher and something like 40 or 50% of regular weekly attending Catholics will agree with that statement or something like that that was a survey from a couple years ago I might be getting my numbers not exactly right but I think I'm in the ballpark and I suspect that there's a certain sense in which what we believe is almost even hard for ourselves to know and understand I think that we can sometimes claim to say that we believe something but it's not actually as true of ourselves as we think it's sort of like we're testing out an idea or we're proposing something a description of what we believe but it is not what's actually kind of deep within us and deep within our heart or what we're actually acting out and sometimes the truth comes out of us in kind of moments of unsuspected honesty and so I think that one of my arguments would be I while in a certain sense in a formal sense there was an a Thousand-Year gap of Unitarianism I'll say from say call 500 to 1500 because speaks like 5,000 miles per hour and he Mak some points so notice again he admits there's a Thousand-Year Gap listen to this a thousand year in which he cannot find his theology for a thousand years he says it you heard it Thousand Years unitarism vanquished and gone can't find it good good admission because that buries your Doctrine cannot be from God but notice his appeal to the Ley the lay person well if you ask the late person you know he'll tell you Jesus is not God he's a Son of God and a creature but that's precisely why God promised to raise up overseers yes Bishops Acts 20 25-32 it's right there that's precisely a God who loves the church and is faithful to the church swore that the Holy Spirit would always raise up Bishops over seers and they would Shepherd the flock and they would teach and correct bad Theology and bad morals because they're entrusted with the protection of the flock the leoty so then I would turn back to him and say all right that's the lay person but I'm not talking about the lay person I'm talking about the Shepherds that God swore he would raise up to oversee and protect the lay person and correct them teach them rebuke them and train them in righteousness as the scriptures say the man of God would so who are those Bishops who are those Shepherds what did they teach about God yeah absolutely I I think you just said it Sam you said as scripture says the man of God would yes but in a Protestant context we think that everybody's the man of God but that's not what Paul is getting at right absolutely not yeah so very good very good I think that there was a certain way in which Unitarianism and the true Faith was sort of living on even if it wasn't described by the people who believed it themselves and I think that there is a way in which we can be wrong about our own beliefs when it comes time for us to articulate them and and that most people I think kind of naturally think of God and Jesus in the way I described it's very intuitive it fits very well with sort of kind of just a basic I don't know first sniff test I'll just say of reading the Bible and so I bet that there were a lot of people who thought this way or at least believed this way sort of in their bones even if they belong to a church that said otherwise let me let me comment I will say please yeah and I Pro brother I'll probably because I in about maybe 15 minutes I'll head out because it's over two hours and uh you can continue brother if you want or if you want to do part two that's fine but I want you to see what he just said he said people believe like him intuitively meaning if you just go by intuition you're gonna think that okay the father is God Jesus is not God but that doesn't mean you're gonna think he's just a man right because even in the survey he's talking about those people who said that Jesus Son of God some believed he was the first creation of God so they were more in line with arianism okay now let's go with that so it is intuitive not to come to the doctrine of the Trinity intuitive that let's go what he's saying intuitively you don't just come up and believe in the Trinity I'm glad he said that because a Muslim use a similar argument I'm going to show you how now this is going to backfire so if we just go by intuition meaning just go by what's intuitive we can intuitively recognize there must be a power a mind and intelligence behind all of this creation just intuitively I can see that this creation shouts an intelligent mind and a power creative it he must be intelligent to create such intri intricate design and he must be powerful to be able to bring it into being and he must be wise because I see wisdom behind creation so intuitively I can reason there's a God but can I intuitively reason that God is Triune well according to him no notice the implication of his words no and I'm going to tell you something that a Muslim said similarly to what he said in a debate I had so I think it was 2001 was in Michigan Detroit Michigan atam mosque where they would have Christian Muslim dialogue so the Muslim thought he's going to stump me I want to use what I said against the Muslim against him notice what he said intuitively we can come to a reasonable belief that yeah there's a God and yeah when you read scripture yeah Jesus is you know Son of God but maybe not okay fine let's go with that the Muslim told me in the discussion he said there are people like the and he didn't use the Aborigines but some Muslims have used that as an example separated from society no TV no media I'm giving you the gist of his AR argument that no God exists and he's one but none of them ever concluded God is a trinity that's basically the gist of his argu so how do you explain that in other words he's arguing by intuition intuitively I said okay so let me hear you let me see if I got you I understood you correctly you're telling me that men left on their own can intuitively reason there's a God and he's one yes but they cannot come up with the Trinity men cannot come up with the Trinity right yes so where did the Trinity come from if men cannot come up with the Trinity you see what happened there you understand if you're admitting the Trinity is not something that's intuitive and men do not come up with it on their own natural reasoning and wisdom then you cannot then come back and say men created the Trinity because you just said intuitively men do not reason or come up with the Trinity intuitively they can realize there is a God and he's one therefore the Trinity must be Revelation because apart from Revelation men cannot intuitively come to that conclusion yeah he just made a case that Trinity is a revelation it's not intuitive of the man it must be a revelation from God yeah is he not getting brother or is it just yeah he he doesn't get it that's a great argument I don't think Lewis uses that I wish he would have well that's why when he came up I was saying give me your objection because I was ready to pulverize him but he kept appealing to sympathy but you know you know why can't we be nice I go dude I'm not here to hold hands and play padti can he give me an objection and he kept can you give me your objection dude bring up the objection he can't and I sent him back to his uh his lover I don't know if it's now brother I'm gonna because I gotta do something I'm gonna do an erring now brother God bless you want to keep going if you want to do a part two I don't mind joining you to finish it off yeah it's over two hours I do need to do something before it gets too late yeah absolutely I I would love to do a part two I'm I'm good you know I I didn't even know you were going to join me tonight so I I would love to finish this with you yes do it together set it up if you want to stop at this point you keep the time stamp you set up let me know I'll join you because right now we have close to 600 people watching now Brethren on my Channel I want you to go to his YouTube channel I tagged him you'll find it in the title and in the description box support this brother come subscribe to his YouTube channel like the videos because this brother is going to bring out content on the trinity and refuting heresies anti-trinitarian ideologies as well as those who think that the Orthodox and the Catholic church Preach a false gospel so support this brother in his Endeavor so brother if you want to stop here we can do a part two it's up to you but I'm absolutely but Sam let let me say this to you yes I know you're very forthright I know you're the bad cop and all of that consider being a little nicer to these people because there's so many people that make videos about you but then they say they'll never debate you because of how mean you are so yeah I'll try to do that but one thing I do say say okay you're right I'm not I'm not above reproach no no brother you're you're absolutely right why don't you go watch I say my moderated debates and see how I behave myself when I'm in an actual moderated professional debate go watch it say go watch it on my channel when I bring you on I don't want you to preach I don't want you to got get to the point that's all I want get to the point because we don't have five hours for you to preach and go here like this guy you see this guy he speaks 5,000 miles per hour and he throws this and he throws that and you see how much time it takes to stop correct and refute so when I'm in a live stream and it's Q&A I want people get to the point please get to the point yeah I don't have now when it's a moderated debate and again prove me wrong you naysayers and I agree may God soften me so I don't give you an excuse not to debate but go watch my moderated debates go and point where I have been nasty and unprofessional you can't do it no there's a time and a place and here this discussion with this man in two minutes he throws out 10,000 points well hold on brother let me address it because if you keep going on and on and on you're going to get away with murder and I'm not here to allow you to get away with murder I'm here to destroy blasphemies with the hopes the spirit will convict you to repent because we want him to be saved we don't want him to be lost absolutely want be Sav and we want to protect the flock from wolves like Paul said all right brother amen but just for yeah for for the record I was saying you know people use that as a copout yes they do they want they want to make videos exposing you and then they won't talk to you because apparently you're mean or whatever also am I to understand you got a birthday coming up is today your birthday September 14 huh mister I was G to say honey but you're not my wife to be so forgive me brother Lord so in some parts of the world it's already September 14 some 52 years young oh praise God happy birthday brother thank you brother may the Lord give me many more years to glorify Jesus see my daughters grow up and be a Godly husband to this woman if it's his will his will be done I just want to finish the race end the race by glorifying Jesus loving Jesus so I can rest in him and that's what it is at the end of the day Brethren and I'm not just saying it to say it oh he's trying the end of the day it's not winning arguments it really isn't absolutely not debating the end of the day is knowing Jesus truly knowing how beautiful and glorious he is and knowing the real Jesus because he is real he is he's alive he is life he's not dead and because he lives death is not the end and we're going to face him on the day of judgment second Corinthians 510 2 Corinthians 5:10 you can't escape it it says even Believers will have to stand before the Judgment seat of Christ it says it judgment seat of Christ to give an account for everything we've done in the body whether good or bad that's for believers not just unbelievers and I know I have a lot to answer for I know the Lord's going to show me all the times where I shamed him and angered him and all I can do is plead his Mercy plead his blood plead his compassion because if I go before him with my Deeds my Deeds are filthy rags and if you understand the gospel is preached by the Orthodox and Catholic Church they'll tell you you're not saved by your Works you're saved by grace but you have to stay in that Grace yes remain in that Grace and do not cut yourself off from that Grace because at the end of the day it's the grace of Jesus that saves you but staying in that Grace means obeying him though we do it imperfectly that's where confession and repentance comes into play so is finishing the race and glorifying Jesus so that when Jesus sees us he will look at us and smile and say well done good and faithful slave amen that's what it is and I want to finish the race because I can testify Jesus has never harmed me I can tell you from my heart he's never hurt me see when I think about it I I get moved to tears amen he's never harmed me he's never disgraced me he's never shamed me never I swear to all of you he's never I've shamed him and disgraced him but he's never harmed me he has loved me with a love that even makes a grown man like me cry like a baby and I just want to love him and make him happy that's it everything else doesn't matter so love you brother let me know when you want to do a part two Lord willing abely love you man thank you so much all right God bless happy birthday all right folks yeah that that was definitely a pleasant surprise I didn't know Sam was coming up like that so you know I'm honored I learned so much from this guy and like I said we we have a history going back many years where we didn't know what the other one looked like we used to just exchange emails and talk through blogs and websites so to be able to interact with him in this type of away it's it's truly a blessing so I appreciate everyone for coming out for this um I'm not going to do an after show or anything like that because actually my daughters have friends out there sleeping over so I'm going to pop my head out and see what's going on but God bless you all thanks for tuning in and yeah if there's any way you could bless Sam for his birthday you know make that happen I don't I don't know if he does Super chats or has a PayPal or whatever but even if it's just to pray for him or leave a nice comment all right so thank you all God bless you good night