Olivier Guez [F] about the past, present and future of Europe

[Music] for coming despite the beautiful weather thank you um for inviting us to this Festival um I'm very unused I I usually don't moderate so I I hope I'll I'll cope and also when I found out that I was I was very much looking forward to speaking with Olivier guz whom I welcome here on the stage it's great that you're here I was very happy that I would be able to talk to you on stage because I think it's very interesting to talk to you only when I heard that we will talk about Europe I became a bit insecure because I'm a very I mean I love Europe but I'm kind of un and I'm an uninspired European and I think it's great to talk to you because I think you are an inspired European and you actually have something to say about Europe and um that's why I'm very curious about this talk and today you told me you are not a pro European but a European what what do you mean by that yeah just European I everybody um well it's it's quite easy I was born in uh in Strasburg so just at the border with Germany and um and I felt very European since the very beginning even if I mean my first encounter with Europe was uh was a shock actually uh in the late '70s in Strasburg uh there used to be a swimming pool just at the opposite of my grandparents place where where I was brought up and uh they destroyed the swimming pool in fact to to build the Council of Europe so my first relationship to Europe was a eight relationship they destroy my swimming pool and um after that um I grew up in the 80s in Strasburg and Europe was everywhere I mean mitan and Cole used to meet um extremely often in Strasburg Strasburg was definitely one of or maybe the capital of Europe not only symbolically or because of the European Parliament or the Council of Europe which is not a European institution or it's a different it's not related to the EU but I mean the the whole atmosphere of the of the city in the 80s when I was a kid was completely pro-european and there there was something in the air there is I I don't know the the the perfume of uh of a big adventure in fact and of course the proximity of Germany I mean for me to go I then after they closed the swimming pool I went swimming in Germany because I mean kale is just 10 minutes from where I used to live as a as a kid so that was something which was natural I mean I I went to Paris when I was already 15 or 16 the first time and uh also geographically um what I told you this morning at breakfast Milan is closer to Strasburg than Paris for instance so basically my whole geography as a kid was European uh I remember also um a trip we made in I mean my old family I had a grandfather who had a Czech origin and before he died he wanted to to KN more thing to know more things about his family and I remember that was in [Music] 1988 and so we went my father had a long pure Breck and we all went together to Prague to find something something about the family and we didn't discover anything I mean Prague was like a stone Cemetery at the time I mean with a secret police everywhere there was no Cafe no restaurant nothing at all but this has marked my um my identity very strongly and one year after of course uh the wall of Berlin fell and I mean I was 15 and for me that was the adventure of my generation and did you I read that you lived in a couple of European cities did you deliberately decide I want to actually explore Europe and because you lived in brge in London in Paris mhm Berlin Berlin Rome Rome now yeah um I think again it was natural because I didn't have this strong relationship to France I mean when you you brought up in in so you're not French you're European would you say that yeah would' say that I'm more European than French more European I mean I like the French language this is language I write and it's an amazing language and of course the French culture is uh is extremely interesting but I would say that for many reasons because of Strasburg because the history of part of my family um because of my experiences I was always attracted more to to Europe outside of France I mean I feel more at ease I don't know in Munich or in Berlin than in tulus I have no connection to tulus for instance and during the um uh during the the covid I had to stay in Bane for 4 months and for me it was like being in a completely foreign country I had no relationship to ban I never came back since so um yeah this was a natural relationship to Europe and I think uh football also play a role I remember when I was a kid I was fascinated by the the European cups and I remember the first rounds where you had 30 60 teams I was fascinated by all these names I mean the Scandinavians and all these strange uh remote Eastern European clubs at the time of Communism and Italy and so on and so on so so basically I couldn't say but I was I was born European Milan kund said Europe is a maximum of diversity in a in a minimum space m and um that is that is of course the strength of Europe and but the problem then probably would be how do you create what what is European can you create European a European narrative I mean obviously we have a European narrative but your work also seems to reflect that and in 2020 you published um you organized and published this anthology of European literature of 24 authors 27 one per member State yeah how many countries are we in Europe 27 27 okay did you find in this Anthology common themes were there was it was it a was it one story or is does Europe tend to fragment well yeah I found out some common them basically um it was two years ago for the the the French EU presidency I asked 27 authors one per member state to write a story about a place uh in their own country which has a strong relationship to European culture European Society European history and they were all free and they were diff writers from very various Generations and and in fact first you could see what was in what was what is very interesting with this text that they were written during the summer of 21 so basically someone in a few years uh would be interested to understand what was a psyche of Europe before the war in Ukraine this is very interesting because you can you can really feel what was going on I mean at least for these writers but I think it says a lot because there are 27 uh you could see you could feel you could read uh The Great Divide between eastern and western Europe among the writers the Eastern writers most of them or I would say even all of them wrote something which has a relationship to either the Shah the hoc coost or to Communism I mean they had in all the text they had a very strong relationship to history and the drama of History the drama of Eastern Europe on the other end uh uh the Western European writers they picked some other issues but what was interesting in fact that through the the places they chose um there were lots of what I would say the lukoma of Europe the common places of Europe so basically you had text about artist colonies you had text about uh Seaside Resorts about uh stations about museums about Arch iCal sites basically the kind of thing that you find everywhere in Europe more or less which are the the common Landscapes of Europe and uh so you could feel the difference the the relationship to history because all of the writers even the the youngest writers from uh Eastern Europe where something around 45 they had a direct relationship to the drama of History I I remember I spent lots of time with the the Slovak writer um who lives in Bratislava and this guy is just a bit younger than me was born in uh 76 but he could perfectly remember the dictatorship what was Czechoslovakia under the the Communist Regime on the other end none of the writer of Western Europe had a direct relationship to this to the drama of History they were the sons or the Great sons great Daughters of something they never knew and you could feel this uh this Great Divide um between the the two parts of the of the continent I would say I mean for example your work is very much concerned with history even though you're from yeah Western Europe but I mean I'm talking now about the mangala book and also about your uh screenplay for which you received the German film award which is a very good award about um also a case that is related to you know the crimes of of national socialism for you are these German stories or are these also European stories that this like concerning yourself with this German form of fascism and how to deal with this German form of fascism it is of course German stories uh but it's also of course European stories um yeah I spent something like more than 10 years in fact what I wrote about German history there was a book about the history of the Jews in Germany after the war I until the the beginning of the 21st Century then one of the chapter of this book became the basis of the of the screenplay of theat G and frz power and then from thead gitz Power because we we're telling the story of uh how Fritz Bower uh discovered aishman in Argentina um I had to read lots of things about Argentina and also the and of course all these Nazi Cycles in U in Argentina and at the time when I was writing the book about the Jews um um this is a history of the two germanies and then of Germany from a kind of victim perspective I wanted to understand why Jews some Jews decided to stay in Germany to come back or to settle in Germany and at the time I already had the idea to write the same story from a criminal perspective mhm but I didn't know who to pick in fact and because of the work on Fritz Bower and the story in Argentina I I didn't discover mang but I thought that the story of mang was extremely interesting so to go back to your question of course it is German uh it's German history but for me it's maybe even more not more but at least also as much as German history it's European history I mean for sure fascism is not only no in this problem in Germany for sure but in the sense that basically I think the the greatest question after the war was how can you rebuild a society after what happened in Europe not only between 39 and 45 but from 1914 till 1945 I mean this second 30 Years War I mean Europe was the the most the richest the most developed the most sophisticated continent at the beginning of 20 Century not even 50 years after it was a rune so how do you rebuild a society and of course because Germany went that far and was responsible of so many crimes it was very interesting to see how the Germans did this but the same question occurred in France with vishi what what France did with the vishy people for instance how did France uh look at its past during from 1940 till 1944 how was France looking at it well it took some time it took some time but like in Germany basically a common feature um also in Italy is a bit different Austria is even uh also different but in Germany and in France what people did in fact was to start looking at the past and what happened exactly who did what when the generation of the war went um retired in fact so basically also because of the context of the Cold War no one wanted to destabilize the society I mean if you take the German Society I mean it went that far that the uial system the university system the medicine system everybody was involved more or less directly if you really wanted Justice at the time you would have to destroy all these institutions and no one wanted this so basically when people went retired then suddenly I think it's not a it's not a surprise or it's not they they they really started I mean there were lots of historians not so many historians some historians of course started working on this in the 40s and the 50s but there was no Echo and of course it's related to 67 68 everywhere but basically I mean the whole story I mean the whole thing started to I mean to to reach a wide audience in the 70s in the late '70s and what I discovered when I read the the when I wrote the book about the the Jews in Germany that it was this Hollywood sitcom Holocaust which was a huge shock in Germany and people started to talk because when you read a an historian book I mean it's very abstract you have figures 6 million people what does it mean six 6 million people were assassinated but Holocaust was very different it was the story of a family so people could identify themselves and it was a huge shock in all over Europe I mean in France for instance um there were two main I would say main steps at the time the first one was the film of Max shag La that was a shock because he went to interview lots of Vy people were completely um assimilated and there was no big suit in in France and for instance morrice papon was the Paris prefit in the early 60s and he worked with the go and he worked with jard it was even the interior Ministry of uh jardan in the early 70s so people wouldn't talk about this and the second one was a book by an American historian Robert pxton he was a young historian the France de vishi and it was a huge shock um so basically I wanted to to to work on this um because I think it's a European feature and it's part of my own history so um so I dedicated this these 10 years to to these topics how do you think Europe is dealing with its fascist Roots do you think because we have the we talked yesterday about the new populism um you see the European idea in danger because I also read in the guardian your text that you see Europe as a place where you can move freely about and you love traveling in your car for example you're on the road 9 months a year you see a danger to this you think the borders could go up again or I think there are different things um Europe is the only continent in fact who who dig into its past as as so much in fact and 60 the late 60s I mean the this new generation the generation of the son of adulterers who decided to rebel against the fathers the Young what have you done where have you been so on and so on I think I didn't leave it but I think it was a kind of magical moment because it was moment of truth but then what happened is uh is fascinating that the the Europeans started to deconstruct everything you deconstruct everything one thing after the other I mean there was the war first and then there was the colonial past and then everything and one basically Europeans don't believe in many things except in themselves or the the kind of consumption Society we live in and and uh the fact is that because we Europeans uh are the only ones we have di into our past so much it's also extremely dangerous in the world we live in the Russians they haven't done anything now they rewrite they've been rewriting their story for 20 years there is just one there is no aggressivity all around I mean turkey is pretty aggressive you have islamism which is extremely aggressive you have China you even have I mean the United States is a strange lie it's an lie when there is Joe Biden and it's uh it's difficult to Define uh if Trump comes back or another one other people would be like Trump will think like that we think that Europe is is not so so important anymore so this the fact that we we dealt so much with our past that we know so much the many mistakes the horrors that Europeans have inflicted to themselves and to the other parts of the world is fantastic and also extremely dangerous that's one point so it's very difficult to but do you think that's actually defining cultural phenomenon to look at your own path and try to try to reflect on it you think deeply European or I think it's extremely important to know who we are what we've done the bad things but also the positive things this something which is missing in Europe that we know a lot we can know a lot about the mistakes we made but what is lacking is a kind of also a positive history of Europe because Europe has done amazing things there's a European Spirit which is incredible that's why I like your enthusias enthusiasm about it because that is Absol absolutely needed and um but not many people share it have to say but um so on one end it's fantastic that we manage in in fact to to look at our history so much and to to know exactly what we've done and on the other end it's also extremely dangerous in the world we live in and what do you think are the mistakes that are happening in Europe right now that maybe lead to this skepticism of many Europeans towards this the European idea I think because I mean there are many reasons but for me it's because the the EU the way it has been built has never tried to to develop and to communicate uh a common history of Europe to to its citizens basically when the the European project started in the early 50s uh kind of started as a German French project in a way and Benelux and ital I mean this kind of car engine former Caroline Empire um it has a it had a very modest approach I mean after what happened between 1914 and 1945 it was industrial so basically instead of producing cannons and weapons uh on your own just share all of these and exchange them it was a modest thing and I think at the time it was a very good approach but no one at the time would speak about a European culture European civilization I mean European European culture European civilization just led to aitz 5 years before 10 years before so basically this approach was the right one at the time but I think we missed a very strong opportunity in the late 80s early 90s with the fall of the Berlin Wall I mean if you read for instance you mentioned kunda but kunda is not the only one but all these intellectuals from Central Europe they were saying we we are Europeans we belong to the same civilization we belong to the same Society we belong to the same history we have nothing to do with Russia we are not the East we are the center of Europe so there was a very strong cultural aspect uh in this you think that momentum was missed completely missed completely missed because I mean for for various reasons but um and I think the left and the right are both responsible the left at the time still today bit differently but at the time you couldn't say European civilization European culture they were afraid of themselves in fact they were ashamed so they didn't want to touch this the very idea of just to define a common European culture civilization I remember for for instance the debates in 2005 for the you know the EU Constitution the French didn't want to put in the Preamble of the Constitution that um Europe was a um Jewish Christian tradition for me it's crazy I mean it's not because I mean if you wander around Europe if you go to a museum in Europe of course Europe was a Jewish Christian continent for centuries and centuries that doesn't mean that you're going to start a new Crusade or to impose to the the new immigrants to be Jewish or to be Christian but just this very idea of identity and the the the the left in France refused this so the left had were afraid was afraid of themselves the right at the time late 90 late ' 80s early '90s that was the a day of neoliberalism everything was uh I mean to buy or to sell that was the the beginning of the globalization after rean after thater so everything was a market so basically all the central European countries if they wanted to join the EU which happened in 2004 they had to compel to a Ser of economic reforms Financial reform judicial reforms and that's fine but the very core the in fact the sexiness of belonging to Europe was left apart completely and I think it was a great mistake because what people couldn't know at the time but what happened I mean what started in the late 90s early 2000 that globalization in fact created a huge identity crisis people started to get afraid they they had the feeling that they would be completely lost in this new kind of globalized economic momentum and they were asking and this is when all this populist movement started to grow in fact because they had a very simple answer to a very complex question who are we in this new globalized world and I think it was a huge mistake and but what could have been done differently I think to try to Define this I mean there is a transversal transversal history of Europe I mean if you take the history of arts for instance there is not a French national history of art or German National I mean it's all transversal all the artists moved and then went to Italy and so went to the Netherlands and so on and so on I mean you have the Renaissance history you have the the Roman I mean the Greek the Roman Empire uh you have this carangan thing then you have the reform much more European studies to be exactly I mean just all the kids of Europe I think to my point of view I mean should have at least one hour in common just to feel that they belong to something bigger than their city or the nation state and the nation state is is too small today I mean we all we' have all understood this and I think it was a huge mistake and and I remember during the Greek crisis a bit more than 10 years ago I mean the Germans were asked to pay for some bills of the Greeks I mean you don't pay the bills of someone who is not part of your family and if you have to have this if you want to have this family feeling you you have you have to share something you have at least to have the feeling that you belong to something in common and Germany refused Germany refused because they didn't feel very close to the Greeks why should you I mean if I ask you now I have some debt would you pay for my depths if we have no I mean we met we had nice conversation we met a few other the time but if you don't feel that you're part of my family that I really need you and that you think it's it worth helping helping me you wouldn't do that and this this is what also this idea of a common culture this is what it would be so useful in fact to have to have this feeling yeah and the things changed a bit with the war in Ukraine suddenly for the first time since a very long time we had the feeling that we belong to something bigger than our nation state so you mentioned Russia a couple of times you don't think Russia is a European country well the Russia of Vladimir Putin is not at all a European country it's uh well we build the war against Ukraine is in a way a war of Putin against Europe it's not it's not a war within Europe it's a war against Europe I mean the war started in 2014 because the ukrainians uh did the ridan and they decided to they wanted to be a European country and as soon as it started I mean uh Russians the Russians came uh to Russia to to the Ukraine with the Crimea and the donbas and so I mean the ukrainians have been in war for 10 years now and uh yeah it's a it's a war of values it's a war of uh I don't like this well why not yeah it's kind of a war civilization usually the European continent goes to the Ural Mountains sorry the the European continent is considered to reach the yeah geographically for sure yeah so Moscow would be Europe European city well mosco technically geographically a European city but the regime of Putin is exact exactly what the Europeans the opposite of the what the Europeans have been doing since 1945 it's kind of what the Europeans especially the Germans have been doing before it's like the the ugly facee of European fascism is now grinning back and attacking Europe completely I mean yeah Putin is a is a is a fascist dictator for for sure I have no doubt about this I mean I sometimes think that maybe Russia should be embraced more but I guess with fascist dialogue is impossible I think that's what what what you have to learn when you deal with fascism it's not it's it's yeah I mean you don't talk I mean it's impossible to talk with a dictator and uh that was the mistake the the French Germans Obama uh you think they talked too long I think they did or believ that talk would be helpful I mean I've been thinking a lot about Angela Merkel since two years I don't understand what she did to be honest with you uh in terms of polit in terms of many things actually in terms of Defense in terms of uh foreign policy and especially the relationship to Russia I mean Angela Markel was born in Eastern Germany she knew the system she knew exactly what is a KB guy and Putin is above all a KB guy and I remember I read an interview ofer in that site I think at the end of 22 and she said that after her first meeting you know with a dog she understood who Putin was okay great for her but what did she do after that I mean she offered Germany to Russia I mean Germany became completely dependent uh I mean for its uh for the gas for everything everything we know now I don't understand and the French did this made the same mistakes and Obama also I mean when he when he refused in fact I mean the you remember about Syria Obama said there is a red line and if they cross the red line we'll go it didn't go Putin understood at that time for him that the West Was extremely weak and uh so there was a yeah Ser of huge mistakes with a I mean a dictator like Putin only understands the language of force unfortunately but does this mean that you would also Advocate Europe to have a a military a different a different form a president like a much stronger political structure well I think we don't have many other options I mean what will happen maybe I don't know in 9 months if Trump comes back or someone else I mean now the the the whole Republican party is uh has been following Trump the last eight years they are isolationist and for them Europe is not important they want to deal with Russia they have other things to do with China I mean what are we going to do um I mean for me it's no it's a very French ID for a very long time because the French don't like to be dependent on the Americans and so on but I think now I mean I was in Germany last week I read the newspapers now you you're thinking about a nuclear weapon which would have been impossible to talk about in Germany just two two and a half years ago uh so yeah I think it's uh we don't have we don't have any other option I mean the problem is somehow the structure still like I I somehow don't identify with USA felion I somehow think she's not my president your type of of President um what is very weird with Europe that uh as you said I mean I lived in different European countries and I spent lots of time in Germany and uh before the first world war European culture for inst was much more integrated that European culture today I mean when when you look look at just um you know news on TV and then you have the the weather forecast you still have the national boundaries but I mean I was born in Strasburg I don't care about the weather in tulus I'm much more interested by the weather I don't know in K in Basel but strangely people keep on thinking as member of a national state and I understand for some reasons for sure but this change of scale has not happened yet and I think I mean psychologically for the people it would be time in fact to prepare them to to move to another scale and because we don't have many other options uh these days and in the in the future so if one thinks that the European identity shall be strengthened as as you do and as I do probably a lot of us do here what how can it be implemented like what needs to happen like what can we do what do you do do you like something like the anthology of literature that's of course something you yeah it's a very little Stone and but I was surprised in fact that this antology was not uh translated for instance it's actually crazy it's for me it's a very strong sign uh what is not working in Europe only came out in French it came out in French and only in the Netherlands I was in Amsterdam one month ago I mean this kind of Anthology I remember when I was around between 15 and 20 in the early 9 you had lots of books like that you know like all these generational writers they were translated in every European language this book I mean you have Daniel kman from Germany you have Sophia oet for Finland you have Tom kin from uh Ireland you have inter book to read you have uh Kasai for Hungary and so on and so on these are major writers it's not like second class writers this book was only published in the Netherlands no one in Germany wanted to publish that book because Europe doesn't sell in Italy same Spain same and so on and so on English language nothing so for me it was it's uh it's a sign in fact that and I mean we need to implement this on many levels I remember for example that when I grew up it was normal that Germans would go to France for like a schula a student exchange and you probably I don't know if you remember that but I mean probably had of course I remember so that was actually quite um I mean quite important the young Germans used to learn French some French used to L German My First Girlfriend Was French from a you see student exchange so that was that strengthened European idea in me actually so I think that would be for example a great idea to have more of this exchange also with other countries that like Germany when it has to pay a bill for Greece actually feels like yes this is our family which I always feel when I go to Greece but maybe the sh never went there he goes to different place he goes to Spain or I mean arasmus is working very well but Erasmus is still a very I mean concerns very small amount of of students and Al so I mean you have integration problems in more or less every European country I also thought that Europe could be maybe a solution to this integration because I mean if you take the example of France you still have this kind of conflict between former colon and former colonist I mean this has not disappeared the last for the last 60 years but if you change of scale I mean a second or third generation doesn't have this love and AG relationship to the French I mean to Europe this would be different but this this is not happening I think the main thing whatever we talk about culture or um Society military whatever it's a matter of change of scale the only thing which change of scale is football champions league that works it works very well the Old Europe or Eurovision yeah but the rest but this has nothing to do with the EU and in the I remember when I Was preparing the the introduction of the antology I mean you didn't get any EU funding for translations everywhere like that would be I don't know this is what Publishers do I um but I mean if a German wants to publish this they could they know how to find money in general you know you can ask for El financial support and whatever and um but the EU is so has so much fear itself in Brussels you have a statue which is supposed to symbolize the idea of the European Adventure do you know what it is no it's a guy uh how do you say subul someone who doesn't who works when he sleeps schf yeah sleepwalking so yeah exactly like the book that The Sleepwalkers he's a Sleep Walker and he seems to fall it's about to fall in the void that's the statue in Brussels which is supposed to symbolize the European Adventure in America you have the Statue of Liberty and we have a Sleep Walker a very tiny one look at the bank notes the Euro bank notes what do we have on the bank notes abstract stuff Bridges designed by a computer weird we have thousands of geniuses in Europe why now for instance it would be would be kind of interesting we could organize a kind of you know internet referendum who do you want of course the French are more numerous than the estonians so the estonians would have less chance to have an Estonian on the bank notes than the French or the Germans but still you know all these kind of symbolic things the EU missed them consciously and uh for me it's something which is crazy something which which doesn't work in fact in Europe um you didn't want to talk that much about your new book but I think it is also connected to Europe so I just at least want to mention it um because you're in this book um can I say the title already Mesopotamia you look at what we call now often the the Middle East mhm how it actually changed tremendously because of European influence do you want to just briefly explain what this is about and how this is like how the Middle East and Europe are connected maybe well it's it's a book about the the British Empire and it's a center on U on a very enigmatical figure uh was Gat Bell G wudbell was a British Adventurer uh an an imperialist lady and I thought it was interesting to work on a on a lady who is imperialist stick or imperialist and uh so this lady had the great idea to create the kingdom of Iraq basically she did that's a European that's creation yes that's I wanted to write something about imperialism but also all the ambiguities I mean these people I mean was the best friend of Lawrence these people were also extremely interesting I mean they were so eager to know about everything she spoke fluent Arabic fluent Persian she knew everything about the region the history the people and the so I wanted to to talk about this and what I mean as a as a novelist I'm very interested by people who have this uis they think they they can go this Promethean I idea of creating something much bigger than there mang was a Promethean I mean when he was working on the twins he really thought that he could find the secrets of the Twins and this lady thought that she could uh draw the map of the new Middle East and to gather people when never live together did you actually have a vision that these people now should live together and this create something new and beautiful or did she just not care enough no no no yes absolutely I mean they the the Brits created Iraq the way the Europeans especially the French created Yugoslavia for instance to mix I mean they destroy the old Empires think that night's time for nationalities and so on in fact to create many empires but without any legitimacy I mean the Ottoman Empire had a kind of legitimacy the Austrian Hungarian had a legitimacy so this is what the next book is about but it's also about our life for love and I mean it's a it's a novel but it's I mean it's based on I worked on this for for six years and it's coming out this fall in France in France yes to start with well I'm very eager to read it I really can't wait for the German or English translation me too actually so um are we also taking questions from the audience sure toward the end of our talk and I'm also going to I'm not going to do WhatsApp I'm just going to check my notes on my phone so they're on the phone so don't worry but questions from the audience concerning China the US how you see Europe decades well I think it depends what the Europeans wants to do of themselves if they want to to remain the the pupil of America but in America they can't trust anymore or not completely or if they accept I mean to be part of history I mean the feeling I have um some traveling most of the time all around Europe I think the dream of most Europeans would be to be like a a big Swiss a big Switzerland just to be a aside from Mr we old we're rich we're tired we've been doing lots of good things bad things but we just want to retire I mean to make some business and to enjoy our barbecues and the seaside and the mountains and so this is the dream of most of Europeans and it's so investigations not investig the the influence of China in Africa and America uh how you see the relation to the influence of of Europe in World well I can I can tell you as a French second question concerning Qatar or the oil States and Europe in relation to China Russia and so I mean all the states you're mentioning they are hungry they're hungry they want to eat they want to bite they want to conquer they want their Revenge they want whatever reasons we don't want anything of this I mean the the I mean we want to do some business we want to travel but we are very peaceful continent I mean compared to to the others and in Africa I'm not a specialist of Africa at all but I just can see that um because of the past and because also of clever manipulations the French were hosted from most of the African countries the last years I mean to be replaced by the Vagner group I mean between uh a French army officer and a Vagner group officer I know where would pick even if I'm not a fan of the French officers but still there is no comparison but now they think that the Russians are going to help them or people think that also in Africa the Chinese are very nice people and they they they won't try to exploit their resources and but the Chinese are they are so hungry so questioning for example the when you look at the success oh when you look at the success of the what you mentioned the Vagner group in in Africa um so often I hear the the note that um Russia and Putin doesn't really have much to offer for developing countries but I think he's a lot to offer uh and is this is very um this model of managing um managing a place a country by this uh brutal um system of um um of this very uh um uh corrupt and small and brutal Elite and um and that is maybe some this Immortal with uh much less um rights and and perspectives for the great majority and but that is on the on the other hand it's also it's much cheaper to to manage a country a country and it might be attractive for some regimes for some countries so um um um so that and that is when when you compare that with the European model then it takes it's very expensive and it takes takes forever and it doesn't doesn't work and everyone wants to um to respect human rights and and and you have all these procedures with the the head from the EU or from the Germans and you have to check five times and you have to for sure it's not sexy right Europe it's too pure it's maybe it's maybe sexy but it's somehow it's just complicated it takes lots of time in spend in the answer to be Frank I mean just if you want some money to finance a cultural project I mean it takes ages what I've heard because they check and they recheck and they but I think I'm not a I'm not a geopolitician I'm very interested by geopolitics and not at all from about Africa but what you can see I mean we've been seeing this for a long time but since the Ukrainian war and also the Israeli palestini conflict you have this huge divide between the North and the South I mean the the south is fed up with uh our uh Western World whatever it is so you have a strong rejection I mean some people now in SRA prefer the Vagner group to the French because they have this vision and because also the Russians were very intelligent to manipulate this and this is what Putin talks about all the time I mean Europe obviously can only sustain in this incredibly Dynamic world if it also is becomes a dynamic place or is a dynamic place and one of the big challenges for this for Europe is the many people that want to live in Europe and they're trying to come to Europe and every day people are actually dying because they have a vision for Europe for their own life connected to Europe and Europe lets them die in the middle in the in the Mediterranean Sea um on the other hand we know by now that many people in Europe are against integrating lots of people how how how do you feel about this what should what should how should Europe react to all these people that have a European dream and want to come here and live here I mean it's it's super difficult issue and uh all our societies are into this huge problem I mean it depends what you think about this European dream I mean I think most of the if you take the example of the ukrainians uh they're fighting because they want to be part of this European system of values of principles of freedom of liberal democracy um there are also people who come for economic reasons why not we all look for that's the success of America is based on exactly be an immigration country exactly but can Europe be an immigration continent that's one of the big challenges that's a big challenge I mean the example I know the best of course is the French one and to integrate people you have to be I mean it's like dancing you have to be two and this is I mean my father comes from Tunisia so he's also an immigrant so I know this and their Generation The Generation my father uh they really wanted to to integrate themselves uh if if you want to integrate yourself I mean you you need to I mean to make some effort and uh I think if we take the example of the French I mean French is a good France is a good example and a bad example because France went so far into this colonial ID this colonization thing that you have this extremely strong love and AG relationship if we talk about migrants from Western Africa especially the mreb and it didn't work at all it worked for of course a bit but it doesn't work it doesn't work so um there are many I mean it's extremely difficult question I'm a writer I'm not the but there's also the the change the change in Islam you have a radical Islam which is not they don't want to integrate and then they not part of the they don't want to be part of this thing so it's very difficult question I mean we Europeans M didn't want to integrate some some Europeans didn't want to integrate these people some people who came didn't want to integrate some managed to integrate I mean it's extremely complex but the question is that I mean look at what's going on in Europe these days for five 10 years there is a huge majority of Europeans who don't want I mean the the success of the populist that we didn't find an answer to this and and of course I don't have the answer if I had the answer answer I wouldn't be there I guess I don't know what do you think about this I'm very Pro immigration just from the heart um and I also think we need a narrative there we need I I basically agree with you that we need a completely different European narrative and I would probably try to try to um base this narrative also on the idea that Europe is is an open place and not the closed place um but to be an open place you need to believe in something I mean the force of America for centuries what that you had this America is a very strong narrative and just the American Dre woven with the IM sound stupid but there was the American dream is there a European dream yeah we need one yeah I mean yeah Putin has a Russian dream it's a very dark and Sinister dream but it is a dream it is it is a vision and it is a vision Chinese that's why also people in Africa the chines might you know tend to you know because it is at least a vision the Chinese have a vision the islamist have a vision we don't have a vision or a dream Just a Dream actually yes exactly there have a question um when you're talking about the narrative and uh and be earlier before you said something about there was this yeah Europe missed to find a a narrative something some identification some common identification uh further than just be a materialistic com community in a way you said something about that should be Christian Jewish I I I I I just I mean the roots the the roots are Christian Jewish and and not only not only but mainly yeah yes um so this I then I understand what you what you meant but isn't there this um wasn't there at least a dream of of an open Europe I mean uh some years ago when when all the borders were uh when we didn't have any borders in that sense anymore when you didn't when you could pass from one to the other country without a passport I mean there was a small I think it was a very small Corridor but it was there was a time of this open Europe and and this unfortunately kind of died because of many reasons but so I I there I defin I find a definition for kind of a European dream the the the the dream of of being an open continent I think the this I for me it's the idea of fluidity the idea of fluidity was at the very center of the European idea the last the last decades it was a very 68 Vision somehow a world without border or a continent without border but you had um first you had the the migrant crisis in 15 and the Border started to close because it was not a European decision then you had the covid thing and um and the borders uh got closed again now I mean it's it's open but I think it's not enough in fact I think people this is this is the consequence of this globalization thing that people for good or bad reasons uh feel threatened and the idea of opening is not enough today people need to um they have a huge identity crisis I mean if you go to small towns wherever in Europe in fact how can these people feel that they have any impact on what's going on I mean if you have a factory it might close the day after but you don't know for for which reason why is it going I mean I don't know from Germany to Hungary and from Hungary to Bangladesh and from bang they have no idea they have this idea that something is happening and they don't control it and they also have this um because we especially in Western Europe Eastern Europe is different but Western Europe we this is what I said at the very beginning that we deconstructed everything and I'm not saying that we have to to create a narrative like the nation states of Europe uh created in the 19th century which were more based on myth than realities but I think we could at least try to find a kind of common uh transversal um also a positive hisory of Europe I mean kunda wrote amazing things about European identity for instance and I mean the history of Music the history of Arts the history of literature this is completely European it's not National History and also we have I mean there were big political movements uh which could find everywhere in Europe the enlightenment uh romantism so I wanted to ask you about European books so you would say kunda is is a Europe is is among it's it's it's funny because I read kunda when I was young like many people but I'm reading kunda again and he still stands I think it's amazing which I think it's amazing book do you like I I read recently immortality immortality you recommend it I think it's incredible because it's a mixture of various stories it's also about good and Betina and uh immortality that's that's great but I mean they all the classics of the Austrian Hungarian literature I mean which are truly Europeans because it was a Cosmopolitan um uh thing and [Music] um otherwise what would I recommend as truly European I mean of course you have all the when I came uh when I arrived here I uh I took my car from Berlin to Budapest I was listening four hours of podcast about go and for instance ver this was a European shock for instance I mean it had a huge impact all over the continent this is the kind of thing that I don't know a the about good maybe it exist I don't know something which I mean had very adventurous life or a sir about kazanova for instance this is very European if if you I watch recently a again uh Barry Lindon H Barry Lindon by kubri this is a very Europe Story I mean it starts in Ireland goes to England then it goes to courts VI courts in Germany Central Europe kazanova is the same I mean we have lots of fantastic transversal uh figures these are just examples more questions um maybe I I wanted to ask you again about what you mentioned um uh about your anthology of the um European authors when you said that the Eastern authors had more uh feeling of the drama of history and the and I I I don't quite I don't didn't quite understand so do you think in the western the Western authors West Western European authors did were not so um moved by by this do you think that is somehow this could be um some sort of valuable hint of what some this common um this common European narrative could could be like um would it be could it be contributed uh by um more from the from the from the east from the from the newer European um culture than from the West as and particular since you say that that the that that many many of the European of of European tend to be some sort of retirees there something that yeah I I I didn't mention I think one of the big mistakes of the western Europeans in the '90s was not to recognize is uh the the sufferings of Central and Eastern Europe um I mean for for Central and Eastern Europeans the war ended in 1989 in fact and this is a huge difference with us in the west and um what the Soviets the the Russians did was uh they practiced cultural genocides in Central Europe they completely destroy the the the national cultures and that was the the point of kunda in this famous kidnapped West essay in 83 that we are part of we are the same culture we have nothing to do with that we want to be part of the we want to come back in fact and um we never we never recognize as much as we should have in fact the sufferings of uh Central and Eastern Europe and I think that was this is one of the main reason of the gap which grew and grew years after years between Eastern and and Western Europeans your question was because I think that that's an important Point um considering concerning the Anthology what did you ask sorry I was I was interested that maybe since there is this this big um uh um difference or Gap whether you see for a for this narrative um that is missing and that we're basic that we're looking and asking us where could come from could it come from some somehow from this um um more from the Eastern European side or maybe maybe it comes from um as you also mentioned from the war of Russia against against Ukraine so that that is what I'm um of course the Eastern European they have they have much more they're much more alert uh this but I was looking yesterday night at the at the European poll in fact um how the various populations of Europe are reacting to Ukraine two years after the beginning of the war and the ones who are the more the most Pro ukrainians are the swedes for instance and the least are the hungarians so it's not only a matter of east west it's also a matter of what people uh what the leaders are saying to to to their people I mean it's crazy what's going on in Hungary I mean Hungary was invaded I mean Russia was always the enemy of Hungary and um because of Mr Orban they've been praying wash some somehow and now in Slovakia also and so so it's not only east west but of course I mean if you go to the Baltic countries or to Poland or to they they have this again there's most of the people except the the youngest Generations they have this experience in their blood they knew what it is to be occupied and what the Russians are able to do and and so on and so so of course uh if you take a Spaniard I read that so in the same article that for the Spanish people what's going on in the Ukraine is the 55th preoccupation so I mean Europe is big and the closer you to Ukraine and of course and Russia the the but at least I mean the European Community started to function because there was this Soviet threat and now we again have a common threat and Europe has I mean the EU has done great progress also we have to recognize this shouldn't be only critical we're talking about culture which is missing but the the the Europeans moved ahead in fact more than we probably the last two years so we also have to to recognize this but what is missing again this is what we said before that the change of scale especially in the psychology of the people people people are not prepared in fact to this change of scale well I hope that we have all you know made a little change in our mind now and think more about the identity of Europe as Europeans or maybe not but maybe we have one more question yes one more of course please three minutes just a quick one um I'm just wondering I mean so we speak a lot about or we've spoken a lot about the history and everything and I'm wondering as we go forward because in the last in my obs obervation in the last couple of years there's been a big Uprising in in the in in Europe with uh uh Young Generation voices in that sense there it's very present uh more so than in other parts of the world I would assume or I think and um and I wonder do you think that has a um a positive impact on the European path forward or is it more counterproductive by giving because it seems like the younger Generations have like let's say for instance a Friday is for future or something like this right uh which you may not have in other parts of the world as strong or as present in the in the on the on the political stage perhaps and uh it seems like Europe as well as the Western world seems to be embracing this more and more is it uh is it do in your opinion perhaps is it do you think it might be um yeah uh uh for your in um what's the question actually um C in in a sense counterproductive or or is it or is it a positive influence moving forward for the for this European idea of of unity in some sense or I have to be honest I have no idea what I can see or I can feel it's not it's just a feeling I don't know but that the the the Young Generation is is not attracted by the European ideas my generation was for instance for them it's normal to fly from one place to the other 12 EUR in a in your wallet it's not a dream anymore they um again in the early 90s when I was around 20 uh just the idea to take a car or a train and go to waro or Prague or Budapest that was amazing that was a great adventure now people they they for them it's normal it's natural they don't know or they don't feel what lies behind I mean the the long fight I mean to be able to spend a weekend in Budapest just for the pleasure of taking a weekend in Budapest there is the climate thing which is much more important for them there are other issues I mean all [Music] the the I'm in equality of sex and so on and so on these are new issue that we didn't talk so much about we didn't talk about so much but I have the feeling that Europe uh is not so important but I would I would make again a difference between the west and the East when I published this Anthology two years ago so just at the very beginning of the war uh I went to 15 European countries to to present the book and there was a very big difference uh among the audience in the East and in the West in the west most of people who came uh for lectures discussions were old people in the East most of them were young people um I think it's interesting it says a lot actually and [Music] um I think for for young Eastern Europeans it's because I guess they have discussed with their parents and grandparents that it's still something which is amazing in fact and we we lost in the west this feeling of Amazement by this Freedom this freedom of movements this common currency this uh I mean to move into the European space with so much fluidity this never happens anywhere in in the world in fact and um but the EU doesn't communicate about this thank you let's all communicate more about Europe I thank you very much Olivier for sharing this disc so much and I thank you all for coming now you can enjoy the the beautiful weather yeah [Music] oh [Music] N/A