UVA Legends Podcast: Filmmaker Kevin Edds

today on UVA Legends podcast I have willow Kevin EDS Kevin is a a director producer uh of the history of a Virginia cavaliere football uh an amazing brand guy when I did my startup I went to Kevin to do a video for my website did an amazing job uh Kevin great to see you again thanks for doing this hey thanks for having me Julian I appreciate it of course I also forgot to mention your better half Adrian EDS is a a great writer used to write for the Arlington magazine I'm sure she still does uh someone I look up to a lot as well yes and another UVA grad oh that's right I forgot Adrian is is is a good person like the rest of us but um well let me just give a little bit of your of your bio you're you're a 94 grad of UVA Kevin where didd you grow up again a Richmond rich Richmond guy where'd you go to high school herish high school oh herish okay uh 95 UVA um you caught on with Discovery and um you were you know a writer director producer kind of worked your way up um worked for various companies um and um you know you you did the movie with your own production company but uh now you work for curiosity stream as a streaming service for um for this discovery uh you're VP brand strategist uh for curiosity stream um Kevin did I get did I get most that right you did you did yeah curiosity stream is actually independent of Discovery it was started by the founder of Discovery Channel um but we are basically uh the net f for nerds the history sorry the Hulu for history Buffs um so really if you want to see a documentary anything from science to space to history to Wildlife just check out curiosity stream and I'm head of the marketing department here and just having a great time working with documentaries which is just you know where I ended up going in my career after I left Discovery I was in the marketing department there and then produced the documentary for uh UVA football yeah well before we get to UVA football when when you think about documentaries um who are some of your role models obviously you know I I I will watch anything that Ken Burns puts out like I've I've seen baseball 50 times Jazz World War II so when I think of documentaries I think of Ken Burns but I grew up with a world at war was a World War II doc documentary that used to be on on the uh public TV back then what about you who who are some of your influences in documentaries yeah Ken Burns definitely and I mean if you see my film I mean he's very much his style is represented in my documentary um love Michael Moore I he had some really provocative uh documentaries over the years bowling for Coline um I personally don't think I could uh do that style where I'm on camera um I like to be behind the camera I like to do a lot of research and and writing and and uh and and the post- production things like that I also love some of my favorite documentaries and and I'm going to space on the directors but uh man on wire is fantastic about uh the gentleman in the 7s uh who set up a wire between the Twin Towers uh in Manhattan and walked across it illegally um that's a great documentary and then uh for anyone who's who's looking for something fun the king of Kong a fist full of quarters is my favorite documentary of all time and it's a look back in at the late 70s early 80s um rise of Donkey Kong the video game and two guys in the 2010s or or so who were competing for the world record in it uh there's good guys bad guys there's cheating there's um you know World Records it's just it's such a fantastic documentary I can't recommend it more highly it kind of reminds me of Seinfeld's idea of doing a documentary about um was it was it corn Puffs what is Seinfeld's got a new documentary yeah yeah yeah it's kind of the same thing just take something a little bit exactly yeah and just the Nostalgia part of it is just such a hook for those of us that grew up in that era literally with you know just a couple quarters in our hands and and video games being this big machine in a you know in an arcade or a skating rink yeah when my parents were bowling I was in the on the arcade playing Donkey Kong or asteroids exactly whatever what what what are the keys to a successful documentary like you know when you're making a when you're making a movie um you know a fictional fictionalized movie uh a drama or comedy you know you have a lot of License to to build and to you have a plot you have a I guess you have a climax and or or whatever but documentaries are a little bit different because it's it's factually based what are the keys to a successful documentary yeah well like non-fiction I mean you want to have an arc you know you want to be able to introduce interesting characters and have them go from from one place to another whether it's you know geographically or over the course of time in their lives um I think that you know the hardest part of documentaries today is distribution how to get them out to the public um it you know Netflix has a lot of documentary curiosity stream is filled with documentaries um but it it is challenging to be able to find the funding to produce them fortunately today with technology it's a lot easier to uh shoot and to edit I mean people make documentaries using their iPhones it's crazy I mean I I you know when I was at UVA I was in the last class uh that graduated in the rhetoric and communication studies major we didn't have anything close to editing equipment I mean there was an AV club that I remember at UVA back then but you know that just allowed me personally to focus more on writing um and uh you know I remember having classes on uh the art of persuasion Aristotle's rhetoric audience audience analysis things like that and Technology changes all the time it will continue to change so you know the things that I learned when I first entered the industry um you know and editing you know real toore which no longer exists and you know now you know you have uh you know digital um editing like I said you can edit on your phone now it just things are just changing all the time there's there's new technology now which can for example you know apple has a Final Cut Pro X they have a new feature where you can take a a a shot that you've you know that you've shot of somebody walking down the street and you can slow-mo it and it will use AI to generate extra frames in between so that it won't look stunted and stilted look really smooth like you shot it at 90 frames per second so I don't mean to get into the weeds but you know I I love the technology aspect of it too but but to to just put a a point on it what makes a good documentary is the story if you can find a story that captivates people that no one has heard about that just grabs someone's attention I mean it's it's like gold um so you know I I I don't know if the UVA football uh history was gold or not but to UVA fans it might have been and um I got a lot of emails and and uh uh people coming up to me at different events who were really appreciative of the stories that I was able to collect with the help of a lot of other people so um you know that was a little bit of gold right there yeah real quick RCS is gone I didn't realize that rhetoric and communication studies is what what do they call it now uh it's um it's a it's the media studies um right department and I believe that you have to apply at the end of your first year or second year um so you have to get in just like in the com school so you you now have to have to apply and and you know get accepted into the media studies program so it's it's less about the content and about the you know you know the uh platonic method they thought oh you do you still learn I assume those principles that we learned when I was in RCS 101 oh you took RCs 101 yeah of course excellent that's great that's great to know that um yeah I mean a lot a lot of those same principles obviously still exist just The Art of Storytelling you know will never change yeah so so Kevin you mentioned um you took a you took a kind of a swipe at yourself by mentioning the UVA project maybe it's not as appreciated as it as it should be and um I identify with that I do a lot of local media and I feel like you know my audience is limited by by geography and and hobby or interest so I I that that does speak to me in that I feel like if you if I pick a vanilla topic that that can go worldwide I have I have a better audience but um I do I do have loyal followings that enjoy the passion for UVA or Northern Virginia sports now when you when you thought about doing a a documentary about UVA football um the obvious question is our our basketball history is is much more glorious I mean we we were we were bad in both for um the history of the school for most of the history of the school and both we're bad in both but um we we did have some um happy times in football and but in basketball ever since um Wally Walker and Barry Parker and then Ralph sansen came and then uh you know after the ACC was formed um UVA has had a pretty U positive basketball history um you know we're we're thought of as a basketball football we we really did struggle until the George Welsh years even though we had some again some bright bright moments why did you decide to do a documentary about UVA football of all things yeah like so that was one of the things that was surprising to me because I always had that impression too I you know I was really spoiled when I was a senior in high school in Richmond you know in 1989 UVA was winning the ACC uh conference Championship uh going to the Citrus poll won 10 games um you know I come my first year we're ranked number one in the country I mean it was a roller coaster ride and and so I was really spoiled um from my my fandom um but over the years I I would read a little historical nugget here or there um a good friend of mine and historian named KY Barefoot um used to write um these little history articles for the saber.com and he was someone who I look at as like a sort of an inspiration for me you know getting started on the documentary and uh you know it turns out that when college football began in the you know the in 1869 Believe It or Not UVA you know we think played a game in 1871 just two years later um I was in the you know the archives UVA trying to find some historical reference to that um there there are some mentions of it but nothing I couldn't find a Score nothing that I could really solidify UVA as we would have been the fourth oldest or tied for the fourth oldest program in the country um if I could find that but but when the program started you know when the when the current you know UV Administration acknowledges the UVA football program starting in 1888 you know it was the first football team in the South um so kind of had a head start on everyone you know ahead of UNCC and NC State I mean there was no Florida State back then so that period per of the 1890s up through like the 1920s you know we had a head start we were the biggest program in the state um you know there were UVA alums that actually went down to blackburg and started their program you know a decade or so later and helped them out um but UVA really was the was the was the Crown Jewel of the South um we were the first program to beat um one of the established Northeast um Ivy League schools like Harvard and Princeton and Penn and Yale those were the powerhouses back then UVA was the first southern team to beat um one of those teams in I think it was like 1910 um so we had a lot of you know success there but you know another thing that was really interesting was just the UVA administration's role in the formation of the sport of football itself um uva's president Alderman um and their athletic director William lambath if you go to UVA if you're familiar with lambath field and the lambath colonades and the lambath apartments um that was the site of of uva's football stadium you know going all the way back to the you know probably the like I said the 1890s those was made out of wood back then um but those two gentlemen were really involved um in what is was the precur precursor to the NCAA um William Lambeth was on the NCAA football rules committee so they were changing rules all the time what was a legal tackle what was what was illegal you can't tackle below the knees um you know how many yards to get a first down and things like that um and one of the significant rule changes that William lamth was involved in was the I won't call it the invention of the forward pass but it was the um sort of uh let's say the growth of the forward pass um you know up until I believe it was 1910 um you could pass the ball but it had to be lateral it had to be behind the line of scrimmage you could not pass the ball forward um and so in order to try to spread the field out to lessen the chances for injuries because people were playing it like rugby like just these scrums and Ja guys punching was allowed you were allowed to punch someone three times before you were kicked out of a game um that was in the rules but they wanted to spread the field out you know they required what was it seven men on the line of scrimmage so that you couldn't have you know one guy hiking the ball and 10 guys in the Back Field all running forward just crashing into each other um but William lambis you know um said hey let's try the forward pass and allow it you know across the line of scrimmage um but they wanted to do a test case so in the spring uh I believe it was 1910 forgive me it's been a while since I looked at all the dates um the UVA football team held a scrimmage at Lambeth field where they practice with this new set of rules and then William lambath and we've seen his writing in the margins of these letters that had the rules in it said experiments went well the game looks great with these new rules and they pushed forward with the new rules and in that season the forward pass across the line of scrimmage was allowed um I believe an incomplete pass led to a 15 yard penalty so it was a really dangerous place still in terms of you know uh whether you wanted to to uh attempt it or not um but I actually worked with uh some folks to have a plaque installed at Lambeth field so if anyone's walking you know along the colonades to go to where that the bridge is to go over to uh jpj um look for the plaque there that talks about the you know the the beginning of the forward pass that happened right there you know at UVA in Charlottesville that's really cool um if I could if I could go back just for a second I in your movie I thought was really cool which I didn't I didn't know um obviously there's there's a close relation between rugby and and football and football derived from rugby and and sometimes teams played both games they they play different styles but there was a rugby school um I believe the building might be even still there I'm not sure but the Rugby Road was the connector from the school to to to on grounds and that's where all the fraternities are where all the partying happens now I that was really cool part of other your documentary did you did you know that when when you were a student at ubaa no no I mean I didn't know why rby Road was named the way that it was and and uh and that there's a rugby School in England and that is where the real birth of American football if you want to call it that um takes place is where they were playing soccer they were playing football and a boy picked up the ball and ran with it and the students loved it and decided to create the game of rugby which was you know named after the rugby school um so it's interesting that the road that leads to UVA you look at madbull that was the site of the first football game ever in UVA football history was madbull um and so Rugby Road runs right along that which is pretty cool and another little side note is that um madbull was used as an athletic field for you know quite a while before lambath stadium was built um but the UVA baseball team played a scrimmage I think it was in 1905 against the Boston Red Sox it's the first game in Boston Red Sox history a spring training game and it took place at UVA in madb that's pretty crazy that's awesome um Kevin did they ever play a football game on the lawn um in the early days students did yes but it was just students having fun and it was 50 you know 50 men per side yeah exactly I'm sure that was that was pretty to watch um you know everything in Uva is about uh Jefferson but also there Civil War history um it what about the connection between Wahu wa and and the name Cavalier um and Wahoos the nickname Wahoos um is there a connection between between that and in the Civil War well the connection actually is in the I mean nicknames for College athletics really were just based on what the news writers would write about them it wasn't necessarily anything that was stitched onto a uniform or painted on a sign or anything like that and so when UVA first started their very first team their uniforms were uh Scarlet red and silver gray which were reminiscent of the uniforms of the Confederacy um unfortunately when they were playing in the in the red Virginia clay they turned pink so it's was kind of embarrassing and so they or at least to them and and so as The Story Goes they had a meeting amongst the students um literally um it's the old YMCA it's it's Madison hall right where madb is they held the meeting there and and try to decide on the on the new school colors and a student had a scarf that was orange and blue and someone said how about this and so they chose those colors and so from that point forward uh orange and blue were the school colors they had striped sleeves like you see Princeton had that style with black and orange and UVA had blue and orange UVA was called the Tigers for a while because of that um I think they were called the Virginians for a while and then it was I think 1923 when they had a contest for a new um a new fight song that the Cavaliers song was a song that was that that won and so they became the Virginia Cavaliers in the 1920s yeah well you mentioned that the the northern schools from schools from Northeast uh dominated football and rugby um but football in the early days why is that why well in the south was it was it horse racing going on what were they doing in the South that made them behind the North in terms of of of sports yeah I think that like uh I think up north schools were a lot closer to each other it's a lot easier to go back and forth they were already um they already had uh crew competitions with each other baseball games that they played against each other so I think that that was kind of a natural thing that once football kind of came about as a sport that they added that you know to the Athletics departments in the south I mean the schools were you know still the the population itself was still recovering from the Civil War you know just to be able to go to school with such a luxury um so to be able to go to school get an education and then you know go back and and and and use your you know your education in whatever profession profession it was whether it was you know law school med school you know whatever the case may be business school um yeah I just don't think that Sports were were a high priority in the South at that time yeah so so we we we did have a head start on many of the Southern schools um uh but our I think our first um period of real success was under Frank Murray and a player who I believe is the only Hall of Famer in newva history I believe is Bill Dudley um B Dudley is he yeah I might be but Bill Bill Dudley is is in the Hall of Fame came to UVA as a punter and a kicker um but ended up having an amazing career at 16 years old 16 is that right yes 16 wow so tell us a little bit about Bill Bill I know you played for the Redskins and the Steelers tell us a little bit about Bill Dudley Bill's great I'm so glad that I did the documentary when I did um before a lot of these Legends you know passed um I bill was my number one goal to get he's to this day I'm still the only UVA player to be selected number one in the NFL draft was that right I think Chris long was selected number two if I'm not mistaken um but Bill Dudley was incredible I think that in the NFL and maybe even in college he scored seven different ways whether it was passing the ball running the ball catching the ball kicking extra points field goals interception return gosh he might might have even tackled someone for a safety um he was just a a freaka nature and um perhaps the slowest guy on the team but supposedly in space he had just moves that just no one could tackle him I mean they I I heard stories where literally they they 11 on one they would kick off to Bill and just try to tackle him and he could get through them sometimes um but he was he was definitely a legend like I said you he graduated at was it 19 or 20 years old so imagine if he had you know had an extra two years if he hadn't you graduated high school early how how good he might have been um but he he was definitely you know one- of a Kind yeah um yeah it's it's funny every time I any kind of trivia question uh dealing with UVA that's from the olden days the answer is almost always um Bill Dudley so one thing that um it's it's apparent when you when you look at the history of U UVA football is that you know as I mentioned earlier we struggled um even though we we were the first in the South uh we had some we had some good years under Arthur geppy I believe he pronounced it name right he was a coach 40 46 and 52 we had some decent years under George Blackburn between 1965 in 1970 um um why is that why did why do you think UVA only had moderate success what was what was holding us back if if anything you know I I tell people when they ask me to give them sort of a log line of sorry you know sort of a synopsis of of the UVA football documentary I say it's a story of worsts and firsts um there are so many firsts that uh take place in the history of UVA football like I said from being the the first uh program in the South the first program to you know forward pass across the line of scrimmage first program to beat one of the elite schools in the Northeast um we were the first school believe it or not to play an integrated football game in the south in 1947 when we hosted it at hosted an integrated Harvard team um there were calls for boycotts um politicians were getting involved um and the UVA students in 1947 a lot of them had served in World War II um had fought against Hitler and fascism had fought alongside you know other minorities African-Americans um and you said there this is this is the future you know what are you doing we're we're we're not going to cancel this football game with Harvard um so that was a first that took place at UVA um but then some of the worsts you know like you you mentioned um you know that that down period UVA lost 28 consecutive games at one point from 1958 to 1960 uh the longest losing streak in college football history um you know really uh we had success like I mentioned at the beginning um there were some some years in the in the 30s where they had some issues um you know and those had to do with you know whether or not we were offering scholarships or not you know UNCC was doing UNCC things and you know as much as they like to think that they they they're they do things the right way well that's not always the case um and uh and really it was like art Gap that you mentioned you know had us um you know in the rankings beating teams like pen you know that was our first Victory against the top 10 team I believe against Penn uh in the late 40s and we had a bid to um I can't remember what the bowl was we had a bid and the president of UVA at the time said no we don't do bowl games at UVA and so art Gap got ticked off you know he wanted like a $500 raise we refused to give him a raise so he he went to Vanderbilt and he turned their program around and so really that was just a black mark on the on the UVA program itself and so what college football coach you know of of you know that's really really good would want to come to a school like that who doesn't pay you well and doesn't accept you know invitations to bowl gam so you know that was really the the situation that we were in you know all the way up until like you mentioned Blackburn uh came along and we started to see you know a modum of success um you know not not the heights that we would see later but then you know when when George Welsh came you know he he just brought a whole new mentality to UVA football he had a great staff great recruiters um and also we just had some fantastic athletes in the state of Virginia and they really focused on the state of Virginia you know a lot of those guys from those those teams in the in the 80s and 90s you know came from the Commonwealth yeah well we're gonna get to those happy times in a minute but I did I did want to talk about the ACC a little bit the UVA was a member of the Southern Conference which was a enormous conference conference that um it broke apart in the early 50s and teams that bigger the bigger schools that wanted to play some football formed the a formed the ACC uba had dropped out of a Southern Conference by then but ended up joining the ACC what role did that have in the development of of UVA football and ex UVA Sports yeah yeah no I mean like today you're seeing with these Mega conferences you know the Southern Conference was was basically made up of the majority of the current SEC or at least the SEC from maybe like you know 10 years ago and the ACC uh and so the it broke apart because they you know you couldn't play everyone in round robin it was hard to you know declare a champion of the league um again some teams were doing things a little differently than others more scholarships than others and um you know uh so they they UVA got out a couple years early that the the league broke apart the C formed then the ACC formed in Uva you know actually I believe you know we missed out on the very first year of football in in the ACC but we were there for the first season of basketball that winter so we came along you know a couple months later from from everyone else you know from duke and Maryland and UNCC NC State Wake Etc um but that was you know um that was interesting because they were able to play around Robin's schedule they were able to declare this is the champion of the ACC um it's really interesting that Maryland was was really kind of helped start the ACC um it was it was really because of their program and insisting on um being able to play in bowl games and you a couple other factors um and then Maryland end up leaving the ACC you know which kind of you know seemed like that they were you know I don't breaking a lot of people's hearts but their own fans Hearts primarily um but it just seemed kind of kind of you know I was incredulous when when they left to go to the Big 10 but it's all about money these days you know and uh NCAA football it's it's you know it's kind of a professional League now yeah well um well you mentioned uh 1947 the Year Jackie Robinson integrated Major League Baseball is the year when they played UVA played Harvard the integrated team which was big news um UVA was the last uh basketball team to have black players in ACC which is hard to believe as the second most northern School you would have thought UA been earlier uh you know I think I think black students started at UVA the same year women and maybe a year after about around around the same yeah and I I know that I know the name of the first UVA basketball player African-American it's I'm I'm I'm freezing on it right now when did the UVA start recruiting black football players what was the first year that UVA had black football players yeah that was 1970 um but at that time um you were not allowed to play varsity football as a freshman so they had a freshman team um so it would still be another year until 1971 when African-American players were were on the varsity um but 1970 was when Al Gro began his career as a college football coach and he was the head coach of the UVA freshman team that awesome yeah so he ended up coaching the that historic team and those Trailblazers um that that broke that barrier at the University of Virginia oh that that's that's amazing um so UVA was a very conservative Southern school you know when you and I went to school there we we'd wear uh coat and tie to games I wouldn't but most people would um we had a pet band I think it was still around when you were there y um were those Traditions how far do they go back and I and I believe there's no pet Band anymore and I believe the kids don't dress up anymore talk a little bit about those Traditions yeah I mean you know the students themselves wore coat and tie uh to school until I think it was sometime in the early 70s it was called the coat and tie Rebellion or something where students started to just wear jeans and t-shirts and things like that I mean the 70s were wild man so things were changing and so I think you know that that the only opportunity or one of the best opportunities to dress up you know was at football games and it was also the team wasn't good so it was it was a date function you know so so students continue that tradition all the way up through the 90s you know then algro was like you know wanted fans to wear orange so it kind of died out a little bit I mean you still might see a couple folks wearing a coat and tie but no I I definitely did but you don't see it as much anymore yeah and how how about the pet band what and the pet band again I think that was Al gr's era where wanted BigTime college football he wanted a a big time band um and the pet band had you know had their wrist SLA you know several times over the years for various stunts and and Antics um so you know that was you know the the whole sense of of Virginia students and self-governance um really kind of was in display when it came to the pet band you know lasting for as long as it did yeah exactly well you the 70s were were a tough time for UVA football um Sunny Randall was a disaster my high school basketball coach Bob mg played basketball and football UVA he just said Sonny was he wasn't a very nice person and didn't do very well lost a lot of games um dick Beckwith who I understand was a really good guy um guy from who played quarterback in my high school Todd kurtley great guy uh played played for dick um he end up going to Georgia I believe after UVA I believe or somewhere like somewhere somewhere South but they struggle so so so Kevin um George George W was doing amazing things at the Naval Academy he was uh you know Naval Academy has strict rules about how how many days they can practice how long they can practice um they other players had to commit the fouryear service before they could go professional like Roger tallach uh but George Welsh was the coach that ended up turning turning things around I believe 8182 um was there any relation um between getting George Welsh and the success of UVA basketball in the 70s with with Barry Park Hill Wally Walker winning the ACC in 76 and of course the great Ralph Samson was it time for UVA um to to be a big time uh football program as well that's a great question and it's really it is a Confluence of events that that happened I don't think any one thing by itself um led to that success that we saw but you know one first of all you mentioned George Welsh he was an assistant for Joe pno at Penn State um and uh did great things there went to the Naval Academy I think he lost the Naval Academy played Penn State his first year I think they lost 49 to nothing this second year in Georgia's second year the Naval Academy they beat Penn State wow I it just an amazing tactician George was fifth in the Heisman voting when he was a player is that right um he was in I mean at 5 foot1 175 pounds soaking wet um he was in Life Magazine getting interviewed I mean he was a great athlete himself um but yeah he was looking for the next big step uh for himself in his career and he even mentions when you know his opening press conference you know in Charlottesville that you know they asked him you know UVA is known as the graveyard for coaches you know why are you coming here and he said well if it's a graveyard it's a pretty graveyard um so I think that just he was a fan of history and he was a you know a fan of of Thomas Jefferson he was very well read um I think that the success of the basketball team absolutely played into that I mean you see today when UVA won the National Championship in 2019 you know um applications to UVA skyrocketed I it's just it's just natural that when you're in the public eye um One Way or Another whether it's from one of your sports teams that you know All Ships rise with the tide so I think that that really kind of you know came together th those two things that you know the basketball team you know showed that success could happen at UVA and then thirdly Jean Corgan as the athletic director um and Jean was the person that hired Terry Holland um Jean was the one that fought for additional scholarships for UVA football players for additional coaches on the coaching staff you know Jean had a whole plan to he said look if we're gonna do anything at UVA we need to do it right um and he had a plan is called the Corgan report and I think I mentioned it in the documentary and he thought you know this either going to get me fired or it's going to lead to some good things and it was accepted and know I think it was um president Shannon maybe was the president at UVA at the time um but that enabled him to go after George Welsh and to say like look I'm going to fully complement your you know you with a coaching staff that you need and all the resources that you need and even though George was working out of trailers you know um behind U-Haul at the time he's like look we're g to build the mchu center you know we're GNA get there if you if you'll be patient with us so a lot of different things came into play to kind of you know just hit that that you know magic formula for Success that you know I mean there were I I'll stop there we can talk more about the 1990 season if you want yeah so I I think um um Frank M was a prominent doctor Sports Doctor yeah he was he he he was a leg so my freshman year was important because that was the year Don macowski John Ford Barry word Howard Petty um I'm freezing on some of the some of the Defenders because we had a good defense too we went yes we went to went to the peach bow that was that was a really important year in in in UV football I believe your freshman year was the year um they were number one in the country is that is that right my first year that was your first year oh yeah freshman year geez i' I've been talking to my JMU student so Kev so talk about your freshman year and what what what did that mean to you to come to UVA and to experience um maybe the greatest year and in besides the UVA winning the national championship basketball RAC maybe the greatest year in Uva Sports history was the year we were number one uh ever so briefly 1990 yeah I like I said I was spoiled my my first game ever was the Clemson game when we beat Clemson for the first time um I remember being on the field as the goalpost came down and carrying part of it to the lawn and setting it down on the lawn I mean I was just uh indoctrinated immediately into UVA football um I remember I was sitting on the hill and the the game against Georgia Tech you know where we were going for the game-winning touchdown at the end which got called back not enough men on the line of scrimmage which was the rule that William lambath helped helped establish in 1909 oh came back to bite us um and we ended up having to kick the game tying field goal Georgia Tech goes down and kicks the game winning field goal uh with under a minute left um you know but my first year was just oh my God it was so much fun CBS Sports was there the the Shamu blimp was flying overhead it was so much fun I mean that team despite finishing eight and four on the season because Shawn Moore broke his thumb or uh on the astro turf might have been the best eight and four team in college football history um you know we lose the bowl game to Tennessee that year on the last second field goal like something like 23 to 22 we went from being not ranked the week leading into the bowl game to being ranked in the top 25 after a loss which is just mind-blowing to me I mean I think that the voters could see how good that UVA team was and Shawn you know coming back and played half of that game but still you know was his his thumb just wasn't fully healed yet yeah I remember Kevin I was I was in law school that year here and I live behind the corner and every day i' I'd walk by the corner to go to the the bus stop near the Chapel to go to law school and I remember I stopped by Menor and I grabbed the USA Today and it had us number one in the country I never forget that day the morning the sky was just incredible color that day it just it was so special and then if you uh the Georgia Tech game um uh the running back William Bell was a phenomenal player the quarterback Sean can't think of the name that was a great Tech Team Bobby Ross was their coach um and you know I i' i' I've interviewed people from that team Nikki Fischer had a play he wish he could have back uh there was there's so many things that went into that loss we we kind of felt like everything had to go perfectly for tech for us to actually throw that away but one thing I'll never forget about the game was how quiet it was when the game was over I'll never forget leaving the stadium it was so quiet it was like you know it was like funeral as we left I I'll never forget that and I it was people were crying it was a funeral for hour undefeated season is what it was yeah it was tough and then the Maryland loss and then it just and then we did we we had a great effort in the uh in the Orange Bowl uh in the Sugar Bowl uh I was like Kevin did you get to did you get to know any of those players while you were a student I know you interviewed uh many of them for your for the movie but you get to know them as yeah you know um I had a couple let's see I had an offensive line it was in my Suite uh my first year I remember he took me around a couple parties and you know met some players and they just seemed like Gods to me I mean these guys were were were huge um and uh and just you seeing them on TV and then seeing them in person was you know was kind of crazy and then you know years later getting a chance to meet them you know face to face for these interviews um you know I did a a collective interview with Sean Moore and Terry Kirby and Herman Moore and Chris Slade we did kind of a group dinner um setup for for their interview and it was funny you know I I never I had not yet met them in person but I was introduced to Shan through email and that guy is just a born leader I mean whether he's leading his team to the 1989 ACC title or whether he's emailing his buddies to inspire them to come to Washington DC to shoot this interview for a no-name guy who's trying to make this documentary he's was just so passionate and just I mean you can see why people want to follow him and he's just a he's just a great human being yeah I I there's some great names um also great names that you you probably talked to definitely watched one of my heroes Heath Miller I'm a Steeler fan Chris long um um um Ron Barber um so talk talk about those guys um and the and the impact they had on the program oh man that the all the guys that you mentioned that they were huge and we were fortunate enough to be able to interview them for the documentary you know and most of them were in the middle of their NFL careers at that time so it was really gracious to them to like give up their time you know to be a part of the documentary um it was just a continuation of the George Welsh success and you know some of the defensive players that you mentioned I I always find it fascinating that you know in in 1990 I believe we had the the number one ranked offense in the country whether it was yards per game points per game whatever whatever it the the metrics were we were an offensive Juggernaut and then the following year we had the best defense in the country in 1991 I mean that just shows how good George Welsh was not just on one side of the ball even though he was a quarterback and offensive coordinator um so I'd like to see the success of all of those players that you mentioned even going into the NFL I mean UVA was was just a you know a breeding ground for for these NFL stars and you know hopefully one day get back to that yeah exactly we will um Hope Springs Eternal let's talk a little bit more about Al Gro now I I just I love the bill and Bill 30 for 30 U Bill Parcels Bill belich and Alro figures prominently uh alow you mentioned earlier he was a freshman coach at UVA in 71 with the first integrated team uh but he he also was a defense coordinator for for bich and had a great reputation as a as as a defensive coach and and a leader generally came to UVA definitely had some success early um probably you know uh you know not looked at in the same light as as as George wellsh how do you what do you think about the ALG grow years and and why don't you think it was a success it probably should have been given the the level of Coach he was yeah I mean he came in that first recruiting class that he brought in I mean folks were excited and and just again focusing on the the instate Talent um was such a key to his success I think in those early years um you know we had some unlucky bounces I mean and every team does and some unlucky injuries and things like that but you know we still had a pretty good team a team that was you know over the first half of his you know tenure at UVA I think anybody today would take that in a heartbeat um I think that you know he had some defections on the staff um that wasn't necessarily able to fill um with the same caliber perhaps um you know and then once you kind of once you you get a bit of a losing streak against your instate rival and things kind of start to snowball just a little bit you know it becomes harder and harder and and you know he got stuck in a in a situation where maybe he didn't you know have the staff that he wanted and uh you know he wasn't getting the recruits that he needed you know he was an interesting guy to interview for the documentary I remember you know I I interviewed him his last season uh at UVA um because I interviewed people over the course of about four years and he was really hesitant because I think that he didn't know if this was going to be a hatchet job he didn't know if you know was going to be really critical of him you know so I had to kind of convince him that you know look I'm I'm looking at the larger history of the pr program I'm not trying to get into the minutia of why this person failed or this person succeeded or things like that so I think that you know when my opening question to him was why did you choose to come to UVA as a student like you could just see his defenses let down and the smile on his face and he just had a genuine love for UVA I mean he really spoke fondly of coming to UVA uh from way up in New York he said he said it felt like he was getting in a in a a horse covered wagon to come down to the South uh to go to school um but he said that he had a great time as a player adms he wasn't a great player but loved the sport and it led to his career where he has a Super Bowl ring you know and he coached at several College Programs you know he was at Wake Forest for a while too and you know obviously you know at UVA but uh you know he he was he was a little bristly at times with the media you know with fans and you know people questioning you know different decisions and uh he's just old school man you know I mean he he didn't suffer fools and uh you know I think if if he grew up you know in the in the sport uh and today maybe there's be more media training or you know maybe he would you know I've seen at an earlier age how people handle interviews but when it just came to the knowledge of footb ball I mean you know you talk to Matt sha Matt sha says algro knows more in his little finger than most coaches know in a lifetime um so his players you know absolutely loved him for the most part yeah you got media training from Bill Parcels um to show to show you uh what kind of Coach Al Gro is when belich left um parcel staff to go to the the Browns um the Browns didn't work out really wasn't his fault it was more of a move uh moved back to Baltimore I believe it was uh selc came back to parcel staff I think by then they were at New England or maybe they're still at the Jets but he kept Al grow as a defense coordinator and Bill belich is one of the greatest defensive coaches ever in in football and he thought enough as Al Gro to keep belich he Bel became the assistant head coach so that just shows you about Al grow so look after the movie uh Mike London becomes coach and which which is a landmark moment for UVA we talked about integration in 71 but he was the first black um head football coach I think there had been a black basketball coach talk a little bit about the Mike London years I know this is post um documentary but obviously you're a huge fan and he had great he's had great success at University of Richmond I believe but um his his record at UVA was a little bit uneven to say say least yeah so um so that you know foure span where I was interviewing people Bridge uh Mike uh London's preseason right as he was heading into his first season as coach at UVA so I was fortunate enough to be able to interview him um and you know he came from he won a national championship at Richmond you know he was from the Commonwealth uh he had coached at UVA in the past I mean he checked every box and talk about personal Bowl I I mean just one of the most likable guys and and just a great human being you know I mentioned Shawn you know being a a great person you know Mike London would give the shirt off his back to somebody who needed it I mean he he really was a players coach um you know but he was coming into a division one program that had high expectations you know people were still thinking that you know we could get back up to the levels of the George Welsh years and the early years of of Al grow um you know and we did you know fairly well 2010 I think was a a bull season for us um but you know again his uh coaching staff he brought in a lot of guys from what was then you know called division two or division one daa um that maybe didn't have the confidence of the administration possibly um so there was some pressure on him to bring in more experienced um uh assistant coaches and when you get into that situation where the head coach is not able to make those decisions on his own and he's having to please others I mean sometimes it works out but you know if it doesn't I mean it's it's kind of a recipe for for failure so you know I I think that Craig little page was a fantastic athletic director um I to this day L John Oliver for bringing Tony Bennett to UVA I mean I don't want to say that I will take mediocrity in football and exchange for a national championship basketball but we have a national championship in basketball and John Oliver was a big part of that yeah now he perhaps thought that you know maybe that that you know that guidance could be used in the football world too and you know that didn't necessarily work out um he then you know if I went con segue into Bronco Hall took sort of a you know a different uh path in terms of looking for the the coach to succeed Mike London and again got a guy from out west you know Tony Bennett was at you know Washington State Bronco menen Hall at BYU you know but had a track record for Success at BYU um and so it it was another situation where that you know it he won the ACC with Bronco you know so that that you know again today take that in a heartbeat yeah from what I understand about Bronco there was a there was a cultural disconnect with Bronco maybe he was kind of old school values or something that some of the some of the players just from what I understand just didn't connect with him it wasn't that he he wasn't a great football coach I think it was that but let's move on to Tony Elliott and before we get to Tony Elliott who seems like a great guy Clemson an engineer walk-on had a had a great career at Clemson and also a an assistant there but one thing that clouds Tony Elliott's career and it's not his fault obviously it's the tragedy with Devin Chandler lavel Davis Des Shawn Perry now your son Ethan was a student at at UVA when that happened as my son Chandler was so we we'll never forget that night because we both were wondering where or our sons were um you know as as a guy who's who's given a lot to UVA not only did you go there and uh but you spent a lot of time in thought um and energy um with UV in its history um what did the tragedy do do to you personally and how how did you deal with it gosh you know I can't even comment on you know myself I mean my heart just to this day goes out to the families you know and to the friends and it is just so mindblowing um you know to have have these guys of their whole future ahead of them just have it snuffed out it's just you know it it gosh Tony Elliott had a challenge without that but then with that tragedy on on top of it I mean I think that he handled it as best as anyone could I mean it's just you can just tell the you know the The Compassion that he has for the families for those players themselves for their teammates for the community you know and he had to wear that um and be the the spokesperson and the representative of the program um and you know their their memories you know they will always be honored you know by the by the university um you know I was just visiting two weeks ago went to visit my son like you mentioned um who's in architecture school and you know saw beta Bridge had someone had painted over their numbers they thought maybe it had been too long within a day supposedly paint it again with their numbers it's like no no no no we we decide when it's time to to to paint over that so you know those those those guys they're they're their legacy will remain you know for a long time um and Tony you know he he's he's uh he's moving forward but not forgetting um I think it's you know that's very you know commendable and um you know I'm I'm excited to see what they're going to do this year you know it's it's an interesting quarterback battle that's going on and you know it's it there's definitely some excitement but a tough schedule this year really really tough schedule oh my goodness yeah um so I think I believe you won three games both years obviously I think there's an understanding that he's he was coaching through very difficult times um but I think this year um you know people are going to start expecting results um and as you also as you also mentioned the schedule's very tough um do do you believe if given a a fair chance that uh coach OT can take us to the next level or back or back to the same level Where We Belong yes I mean the the new football facility is a a huge help to recruiting to um strength and conditioning um to the overall sort of mood and atmosphere around the program I would imagine um you know I'm not Insider so I'm just guessing at this as you know a fan uh from afar um he seems to be very methodical um with his approach he seems to not make knee-jerk reactions um I think that's you know very helpful when it comes to being a coach um so you know it it again I go back to can you get the recruits from the state of Virginia I think that they've tried to you know I know if men's some fences is the right term but perhaps strengthen you know the bonds between the uh the high schools in the state of Virginia to try to get those those players to stay in state um obviously we have a very wide reach because of our academic standards you know we need to look outside of the the state perhaps more so than than uh than other programs but you know I think that that uh yeah I think that you know we've seen some glimpses if he can get the depth on the offensive line if he can there just there's a myriad of things that uh that need to go into it but um but yeah I don't think that that this year is going to be the defining year whether he makes it or not hopefully you know I still think that he has a little bit of a of a Runway to kind of show what he can do yeah and unfortunately Kevin I think uh one thing that's important to our feuture is how we can compete on the nil um uh Horizon which is one of those things it's still kind of an unknown I think the southern schools we had a advantage over 120 years ago have eclipsed us have right hey man don't discount low Davis he's out there man yeah our buddy low Lo's a great guy so so Kevin this has been great I've been trying to get you to do this for a long time I'm so glad you you finally you had some time to do this you know when you when you think about projects that I know um you you've complained to me in the past that sometimes it's hard it's hard to to monetize these things with all the quality and effort that you put into these this kind of work if you had to tell another story about uba uh what what other kind of story would you want to tell there other are there other aspects of uba or maybe even UVA sports that you you'd like to to tell us about if you if you if you had a chance and and and um uh maybe the money oh that's interesting gosh you know people have said like why don't you do a documentary about the basketball team and you know there is a documentary that's out you know a couple years ago after we won the National Championship um I love history so much so to me there would have to be a story that would capture people's imagination um for any of our Sports programs that go back long ways and and while uva's basketball program started I think in 1905 we weren't involved in the formation of the rules of the game or whether there should be scholarships or not or whether you know a three-pointer should be allowed or not um so it it would be you know a story about UVA definitely be open to it if anyone who's watching this has one of those stories that you know that they think would be worthwhile reach out to me you know we we can talk I mean you just you you it's funny the the documentary that I mentioned called the king of Kong the way that that was started was um I think that a guy named ed Cunningham who was an offensive lineman in the NFL not in high school he's a local guy oh really yeah yeah he's from up here yeah oh wow Small World um uh he um was was working for ESPN went to visit a friend in Seattle Washington a high school bud he was at a bar and heard someone mention this story about two guys vying for the world record in Donkey Kong and he heard about the fighting between these two guys and the the stories and it was like this has to be a documentary and so a story for for a good documentary can come from anywhere so listen Julian if you can think of anything that's captivating you know let me know we can figure it out and know maybe we can find some UVA alumni to try to financially support it um get into some film festivals and uh we'll become executive producers exactly Kevin I think it' be fun to collaborate on a project about the integration years in the ACC between 65 and 71 with Charlie Scott UNCC uh basketball player Hall of Famer um I think it's art Jones from University of Maryland was the first black player I believe but um the UVA in 71 I would be fascin I talked to a guy named Pat tum I I don't know if you ever heard of Pat Pat wrote wrote the book on any On Any Given Sunday which led to the movie Any Given Sunday um and Pat played for vanderbelt um he's a it was all pro uh pass rusher for the Cowboys and the Broncos but anyway he was there at Vander Bel when they integrated um the basketball team at vanderbelt uh he played for g g at uh at vanil football but he also played freshman basketball and he had amazing stories about what the players went through um when they traveled south um play and um you know it's not it's not the um you know they're not the cheeriest uh tals in the world uh there's a great documentary called the tournament uh that was on the ATC Network Amazing it details a lot of these stories yeah that's an amazing so maybe the story's already been told but one one of these days Kevin we have to collaborate on something yeah you know it's funny like our origin story goes way back before we even knew each other and you can cut this out if you want if this worthwhile but I think we've mentioned it before inter mural basketball when you were in law school you I think your independent team won the independent division my fraternity won the fraternity Division and I think we play each other but we didn't know each other yeah it's it's crazy even uh you mentioned that um UVA um Message Board um my team was named running gun and people still talk about that team we for because we were very unlikely team had two older professors from pedmont Community College that were great Shooters I was a point guard and we had a guy Nam Clarence Massie he was local so it was a it was a hodg Podge bunch of guys uh we were we were very we were very tough did did you have one of my favorite former UVA basketball players Andrew benini was on our team Andrew Benin oh my God I not mention him oh Jesus he is a Slaughter legend in the early 90s that guy would come in looked like Super Mario but with go- go gadget on arms yeah and he would walk in and he would win eight games and then say see you later kids so in 19 I think 78 uh Andrew graduated in 71 or 72 High School in New York New York City but in 7879 he was voted one of the 25 best high school players in the history of New York City uh Andrew is in real estate um he's been in real estate in Charlesville for many years you want yeah I've got another one for you up until until Kenny Anderson came out of New York City Kenny Anderson was lauded as the best left-hander to come out of New York City since Andrew Benin how do you pronounce his last name it's yeah that's it you got Andrew was was considered the best left-hander to come out of New York City until Kenny Anderson yeah Andrew tells a great story I've never been able to get him to come on the podcast but my high school basketball coach Bob mg and Andrew are best friends so I knew Andrew before I went to UVA but Andrew uh he tells so many funny stories one story he tells is he came to UVA and his in his uh he used played basketball barefooted that that was his thing but you know he was he was at UVA and his his girlfriend was was back home in New York City and um you know she was he heard she was dating somebody else so he he went on 29 he hitchhiked back home back then they hitchhiked and he asked her to marry her and brought her to UVA and they got they got married right away and so she lived yeah that's that's that's how end up getting married so Andrew was a is amazing kind of a hipster type of dude uh and any anyone who plays pickup basketball UV up until probably I think five years ago I think he was still trying to play five years ago and achilles I think he finally I think he finally had to give it up so yeah he was a Slaughter legend for sure oh he was he was a great as were you yeah well I don't know I definitely tried and I I always suround myself with with great players so um but look again you know Calin this has been great I'm so glad we did this we got it we used to last time I saw Adrian um we had dinner at um great raise a Stak uh wow we had we had we double dated at raise a steak wow it must have been probably 10 years ago maybe I remember you guys were getting work done on your on your house at the time yeah that was a time you guys were listening you bought like a monitor so I don't I guess our kids must have been really young so you didn't have a babysitter for the kids so they must have been under you know 10 or 11 years old at the time yeah we so raise the stakes is literally across the street from the apartment complex that we were staying in when our house was getting renovated yeah and we brought the baby monitor I mean they were six and four years old maybe I don't know maybe they were older than that but like literally if we heard a noise we could have been back to the apartment in 30 seconds they that asleep I wasn't trying to get you rest or anything but I know I just thinking back on it like what was I doing yeah we we met you a little bit later so I think they're probably 10 and eight or 11 okay maybe that was it yeah they couldn't have been that young because I don't think I'd met you until the kids were they were they were in fifth grade and third grade that's yeah so it wasn't it wasn't that bad yeah not yeah yeah so anyway we got to get together Kevin look I appreciate you doing this and I hope I hope Li and Ethan Ethan contined to uh to prosper smart kids very athletic kids especially Liam was a really good basketball player and soccer player so yeah you're going to be an empty nester soon couple years yeah yeah so we have plenty of time to get together all right man sounds good yeah Kevin this has been great thanks thanks again for doing it thanks Julian all right buddy