Kids & Money with Nigel Latta

Introduction Koto called Brook toare I'm Brooke one of the co-founders and co-ceos of sheries and really excited to be introducing shared lunch kids investing series I'm hoping at the end of this that you get tips and you learn a little bit of other ways that you can be having conversations with the children in your life when it comes to money investing and helping them build really healthy habits and a real healthy engagement when it comes to money today my conversation is with Nigel letter but before we get started here's some important information investing involves risk you might lose the money you start with we recommend talking to a licensed financial adviser we also recommend reading product disclosure documents before deciding to invest everything you're about to see and hear is current at the time of recording so thanks so much for agreeing to have a yarn to me about I don't know kids and money and all that fun stuff do you want to tell us a bit about you and what your interests are um o um that's a broad one so I'm a clinical psychologist but I don't do clinical work anymore I stopped in that a long time ago uh and um yeah Who is Nigel? and so I uh do a lot of sort of conferen speaking stuff and a bit of Tally from time to time uh and yeah and the and the little Tech start upy building an happy thing some of the time uh so a range of things really which I quite like it means I get to W about the place and talk to all sorts of different people about all sorts of things yeah cuz even in the history of seeing you on the tally or what you what you comment on there's such a wide variety of subjects that you've covered how how do you choose which one to dive well so kind of like I mean so the we like I never ever expected to be on T like I grew up in araru on the east coast of the South Ireland it's like I don't know like it was just I don't this all a lot of this is mysterious to me how any of this happened um but uh so the so for me it's kind of like so most people kind of know me from that point where I started doing the tally stuff but I like 20 something years of doing clinical stuff before that and so most of my clinical work was kind of teenagers and families and that's sort of what used to be S but is now orang tamariki stuff um and prisons and sort of all of that and so I kind of come out of that and then into TV um I think one of the things that I find the most annoying thing I not much you know when people go I don't care about any stuff the thing that the thing that really annoys me is when people go why does he think he's such expert on everything and literally like literally everything that we ever makes me going I don't know anything about this thing I'm going to go and talk to some people who know and then I basically just go around asking questions because I don't know what's going on um but still somehow people think that's me saying I know stuff like no I'm really not like I'm literally just bumbling about the place chatting to people who do know stuff which is actually that's the best part of it you do get to have some quite good chats with interesting people yeah and so your most recent chats are around uh um frauds and scam scamming yeah yep yep yes indeed um and there's a ton of it uh there's just just an enormous amount of it and it's getting worse and worse and worse um and uh yeah people just I mean you know and so like companies and organizations need to be good with their security stuff but the scammers are always going to be working at the edges of that so they'll find the edge of the technology and that's where they'll kind of get it so you kind of need a like a a te firewall for your devices and your system but then you kind of need a psychological firewall for your and your people because that's how they get us they send us a link and they go are you warrants Jew or parking or a package or you know blah blah blah blah blah and then people just click it and it's like okay and in particular you know you might have used to have approached things from a psychological perspective and now you've got your Tech app you must be thinking oh the implementation of these things like how's yeah yeah well it's like everything I mean fundamentally everything's basically The role of psychology in everyday life everyone's in sales and everyone's in Psychology that's like every like everyone is it doesn't matter what you do that's what you do and so it's I guess like if I if I really think about the stuff that interests me it's like it really is about how do you I understand people and what's going on with people uh and people would like different to me because people are the same as me like um and then it's like how do you take that sort of complicated stuff and simplify and make it easier for people to understand and that's where tell is really good like I think a lot of psychologists get really anxious about doing Media stuff because they think I can't give a full nuance this really complicated question and it's like well no you can't like so you can't you can't cover off cuz you'll get 20 or 30 seconds and they'll cut you out but um I think what what we can do is I think it is really important to to be kind of actively trying to help people to understand stuff and what doing tell is really great out is you have to make really complicated things simple I remember once it was in the Neuroscience show we were trying to explain mirror neurons right so they're part of your brain that and they discovered them I think back in the 90s like they were doing these awful things to monkeys they had them and little things in their skulls and they were making their arms go up and down and what I noticed is even though they were studying this monkey's little arm when it went up and down the monkey across from them these are mean people they sat the monkeys watch each other like they noticed them the other little monkey parts of the same monkey brain were going so like we have these miror neurons that when we see other people doing stuff they fire off on us neuroscientists has been I don't know 20 years like getting into the minut of and the complexity of that we had like 36 seconds to do a pie to camera on mirror neurons and you can um you can't explain the Hess of it but you can take most really complicated things and make them pretty simple if you if you try and if you've got a word limit uh and so your your interest at the moment is The concept of Parentland around parent land do you know tell us what about that yeah so I mean so probably I know about 20 years ago actually when I was doing clinical stuff like at the beginning it all seems a mystery right people come in and you're new and you don't know what's going on and it all seems but after a while you kind of figure out that like we're all just an algorithm and families are an algorithm and so there are there are types and so after a bit like people could come in you okay so you're these sorts of family and it's this kind of a kid and so always kind of like I remember probably 15 years ago thinking there's got to be a way to give people like personalized advice for their kid like why does it always have to be generic and so yeah it was about 15 years ago I sort of talked to a guy about you know a website and sending out PDFs something that never came to anything and then the kind of then apps come along and suddenly a whole bunch of things are possible like you can you can give people kind of personalized advice and so our kind of whole thing is we've got a way to um as we so you look at you know every parenting app is just generic content about and it's just like it's just basically a book and an app and so it just seems like a waste because what we've got is a way to basically to kind of get people to do a short thing we call tq1 we can understand your kids temperament and then we can kind of personalize the advice that you get in the apps if you've got a stubborn 10-year-old that's quite different from an easygoing 5-year-old and getting an easygoing 5-year-old to sleep at night is different to a sty old and so kind of I think the cool thing that we can do uh is we can yeah we can talk to that St and 10-year-old or that easygoing 5-year-old and then people don't have to weigh through massive amounts of content trying to figure out kind of what works and I have to say a large part of it too is actually giving people really good advice you know we've been looking at all the eating stuff and eating is the one thing in kids it's actually dangerous right if you don't get on to eating disorders Eating Disorders kill children like they do and so getting onto that stuff early knowing when what's the difference between kind of picky eating and problem eating that stuff is really difficult um and then knowing what to do was difficult so our our kind of intent is is for people to have a place that they can come to where the advice that they're getting it isn't just personalized but it's also it's kind of evidence-based and it's safe and you can know that it's not just you know chbt make making stuff up it's it's so great to see from your perspective that there's a bit of a formula there I remember when I had my children and I was becoming a parent I was like there's all these humans out there can't be that hard well and then I thought there has to be a formula like why isn't there a formula to like how to raise his child or how to you know and it kind of is right I mean there is a way of kind of there are some Frameworks that you can apply to people like the temperament stuff so that you can kind of understand because we all kind of we all kind of have a basic temperament right you're either an introvert or an extrovert you are you know more intense or less intense and that's we we kind of keep that through our whole life but it it changes over our life as well and so that's the really important bit to kind of figure out what your kids's temperament is and then apply the things that work to that because really persistent which is the nice way of saying stubborn kids they're very different to the more kind of easy going quick to have to change kids yeah I've got both I call is strong world we do now CU you have to it's not what we mean I do need to touch on the introvert extrovert because I feel like I hear all the time you know that being used and I also hear oh we shouldn't be using that it's not actually how people are well no so the temperament stuff's been around for over 50 years and so what the introvert extrovert stuff is talking about I think what people get tangled up on they think there's a good one a bad one yeah and and and they're not like extroverts have their things going and introverts have their thing going they both introverts and extroverts like people but introverts find it draining to be around people uh and they fill up in quiet time and extroverts get their energy from being around people and they find it draining being alone and so like understanding that basic thing about yourself is fundamentally important like by Nature I'm an introvert so I find long periods of doing that social stuff like it's really tiring I just need a little bit of quiet time weirdly my partner is a real extrovert and so for her it's it's kind of the opposite but it still kind of works so it's not like there's there's not a good one or a bad one they both have there's both good and bad things about all of that just like you know there are there are having a strong will kid is draining and exhausting but those are the kids when the world goes you can't do that they go shut up I can't and they just do it you know and the and the kids who are more flexible uh what they do is they find another way around it or they're better at working with teams of people or that kind of stuff so there aren't there aren't kind of good or bad temperaments they're just who we are and then understanding that and trying to figure out how to use that yeah personally I've noticed mine changed since becoming a parent too I think I was more extroverted and now I find if I can get a bit of a Lear time I'm like yes you know yeah that's just survival that's like that's just like even kids even if you're an extrovert kids will scoop all of that out of you and you just just you just want to be away from Tiny grasping fingers it's like just I just want peace of just no one demanding stuff or anything as if something is my fault yeah so so you Understanding money and its Value you're obviously very in tune with parents and families from a lot of your research and and know you have looked into money and children and those Dynamics too yeah what lens did you have to go to to kind of explore that topic and yeah so so we made the the kind of Mind of a money show a few years ago uh and kiwi Bank kiwi Bank great um and they were good CU you know when people say hey we're going to find your TV show you kind of think oh man are you going to treat us like an agency and want us they would just see like here's a bunch of money you guys know what you're doing make a TV show so it was really good and then they were really good people to work with um but no so what we what we're always trying to try trying to do is and it's I I think this is true of tellan most things we kind of talk about like the secret engine so you have to have some kind of intellectual kind of secret engine basis to the content that you're talking about and then um try to make that kind of interesting for people so we we started thinking about this s of kind of money personalities and and there is some stuff around that that you know there some of us are more about security and some of us more about experiences and some of us you know money is about Freedom it's about the social stuff and so money is just a like what we do with the money fundamentally just reflect Mak the values of who we are you I mean like so some people um are just terrible at the idea they just can't say because it's like they just want that dopamine Rush of stuff uh you know and in fact the the EP on the show was she's like that like just she's just got some she's lovely but man things like yeah like they went to some sparle show and it instead it 30 it was 15 and and she thought it would be crazy to throw away 15 grand like that like we're saving no that's no that's not what you're do you're spending you're spending 15,000 so it's like the understanding I think your kind of money personality and again like I think that Taps a lot into kind of temperament uh and it Taps a lot into kind of your kind of values and how you see the world that's what drives people's money I mean you guys will know this like some people can tolerate risk and some people not so much uh uh some people seek it out and some people will avoid it you know at at all costs they'll they'll look at something like shears and they'll go ah it's too risky it's up and down up and up and it's like yeah it is but like over 40 50 years like the trajectory is up all of the time like there are little spikes but it goes up and I think was it the during the Great Depression the longest time it was down was like seven years and then re bound so if you take a boom boom boom boom thing then yeah if you see the line is being flattened but it's like you if you have that longer term view but that's another thing getting humans to think long term to think about the future and and things like compound interest and all of that kind of stuff that's really hard cuz we're not used to that we we we we're made for you know basically prehistoric times we've got these 100,000 maybe 200,000 year old brains we're doing enormously complicated stuff with them but they're still the same old brains so they struggle with Imagining the future and these really abstract kind of Concepts because you know they're they're more likely to be caught by you know the little amp that goes Bing you got three coins did I amazing do you you you know say that's complicated for humans do you wonder if it's in some ways easier for kids with they dreaming about the future what could come next like is there's something where you there's an element that if you get that right in helping teach your children delayed gratification or whatever might be younger you're actually setting them up for tools that help them Way Beyond money um yeah I think with Children what you can do is you can kind of model stuff and you can start to set up some The influence of money on children habits and things and so you know for a lot of people like I kind of grew up in a house where we never really talked about money like it wasn't a thing that anyone ever talked about and um so I didn't really have any understanding of that kind of stuff and it was because you know like my dad was a builder and my mom was a mom and it was just like that their world was you work your money and then you spend it on stuff um and so like I remember like as a young man reading that Richard kosaki Rich Dad Poor Dad thing I'm thinking man this passive income stuff that sounds pretty good like want me some of that that but like that wasn't stuff that I ever learned and so I do think it's important for parents to to kind of talk to kids about that stuff and to talk about um you know to find ways to teach them that sort of delayed gratification stuff so like when I remember when like my boys were little we they had this the pocket money thing right and they would just like we didn't make them save it we and we just said well like it's yours you can decide what you do and so my youngest guy he was like every week going buy some $2 crappy little thing and that would break and break and break um but his brother would kind of save up and he would you know get bigger cooler stuff and So eventually the younger one thought I must start saving the stuff cuz like he and he had to go through that the cheap thing breaks cheap things break cheap things break cuz that he had to kind of he had to keep he had to go through that it is like when you first when you first get money and it's like your own money that's a pretty amazing thing I remember my first job when I I'm so I got a a checkbook I remember thinking oh my God I got like a checkbook I write checks for stuff it does feel kind of quite free and uh and amazing so you do have to go through that phase of kind of doing dumb stuff with it but it's really helpful if you can start that conversational thing early with kids so they can start thinking about things like interest and delayed gratification and yeah you can spend it on hour or you could cuz it's that's about self-control and self-regulation and lots of really good skills so for those that are thinking about setting up their kids with pocket money how did you what do they need to um do to get that pocket money and then also do you think you would go about look you choose what you do with it for a while or actually for certain money personalities we're going to teach you spend save give or whatever you know because actually I know you're just going to do whatever you want with it you know yeah yeah well like so what I think is like there's I don't think there's any kind to right or wrong and I don't think there's any one sort of hard research sciency based I do think we know some stuff about about the stuff that you know and how we spend money and it is that stuff about you know saving someone spending stuff and fun stuff and giving stuff I that makes that kind of makes people feel better um so it's like it's like all things parenting you know you have to like the more you understand about your kid and their temperament and how they're wired together and how they see the world then you can do some different things for them CU for some kids it'll be like I've got it and now I'm going to spend it on what I don't know I'm just going to throw it at the window cuz it feels cool and other kids he was like man you would save this to your a hundred and you wouldn't you wouldn't do anything with it and so it is I think about um that that first thing of when they first start to kind of get some pocket money and get a little bit of money um it's that it's like every other every other part of parenting it's like what kind of kid do I have and how is their temperament how is this going to work out for them later on and what are the skills that I need to start teaching them now around the stuff so if I've got a little spender you know I'm going to let that blow on for a bit so they can get that out of the system and then just start kind of gently find ways to kind of um to bring it back so like you know with with my youngest we didn't have to step in and make a policy he just kind of got there himself but if he just kept doing it then I think we would have probably had some more focused conversations with him about like what do you like what's the what's what's going on now you know and then I we might have done some stuff like okay we're going to we're going to take a 50% tax off you it's called the future tax and we're going to put this in this jar uh and you have to pay it cuz we're the government that's how it is um and then at a certain time uh we'll see how much is there and you can you can spend on some stuff and then you can make a decision about whether you increase your tax rate or what you do like that that that kind of stuff I'm Pocket money and teaching financial literacy to children really intrigued on what people what kids should be remunerated for with pocket money like um I know some families are like when a kid makes their bed you know all of that gets pocket money to others where it's actually when they do it's not stuff they do for their s um or like to keep their stuff clean it's more about when they contribute to the wider household like cleaning the bathroom whatever and I'm really intrigued on this element of with children how do you make sure they're money aware but not money hungry or money fearful you know yeah yeah I mean one level I think what happens as parents is that we kind of we um we get really kind of uh intense about and a lot of that stuff it just it just kind of works out do you know what I mean and so like it feels big to you but it's yeah it's like you got to I'm not paying you for making your bed because that's a job that we all have to do okay um and it's not like that kid goes on to become like you know the next billionaire of something and the kid that got up for making the you know like it's just not like that but I I think it should be kind of values driven in your home so like all families need to kind of figure out what are the values that drive our family and no one's got the you know it's it's it's about finding the stuff that works for you and so I personally I think it's a good thing for kids to like pocket money is stuff that you get because you do some stuff to help out and so if you do the stuff have to help out then you get paid because that's kind of how the world is um and uh and I know other people don't they just they just give it to to the kids and I don't think either strategy is right or wrong I just think they are I think there are I think what people can do sometimes is they can just Chuck money at kids and they have no sense of the value of it and they just waste stuff and I don't think that's a good thing to do that I think to have some sort of consciousness of the fact that actually know this comes from somewhere you know like you losing your shoes at school for like the third time that stuff comes from somewhere um so I I I think you know it's that consequential learning stuff about money is still fundamentally it's a resource that you have to make decisions about and if you make poor decisions then you end up in not such a great place looking at the history of money and like the generations like there were times when you know the parent would come home with the pay in an envelope and then you'd see it deid out for groceries or whatever might be to then um you know you get paid virtually but always have cash around to now we're in this more cashless Society how do you how do you navigate that with children and making sure they really understand the value of a dollar yeah because you know there are people who are going to Great Links to make it easier for us not to think about money do I mean it's like I'm saying like I grew up with money and cash and you had to have money and like I'm so there weren't even money machines like you had to go to a bank and get money and write checks um and now I can like buy stuff with my wife watch I can just like and I can get a ride somewhere and it kind of feels like I'm not even paying for it because some dude turns up in a Prius and I get on and then he chats enough to get a good rating and then I get out and hope you chat enough to get a good rating too I care and then you know mean so like this it is I think hard to to because money is becoming increasingly abstract because they don't have that physical sensation of money but you know also um they are growing up in a kind of digital world and so they're used to kind of thinking about things um in that way so physical money is a weird thing now you I mean it's like wow like when you see some with cash like whoa what's that now how that ah they still take that um Sometimes some places they don't D I know right like no we don't take money what no we don't what are some top tips for it might not just be parents grandparents anybody in a child's life what are some Why values the most important thing when it comes to kids & money things that you wish you saw people do more when they're interacting with children when it comes to money I think the most important thing is that is that money is just another way to teach kids values and to show kids the stuff that's important for you and so the way that you spend money and what you spend it on that's that's just like the way you treat other people when you're out and about with your kids like that's teaching them things about your values and they're looking at your values and making their decisions so so I kind of think it's about okay you just have to decide that that values based stuff like how do we how do we think you look after people and uh how do we look after each other and how do we treat other people and how does it work with with with money stuff and so um you know if you just um if you if you just waste it on things or throw it away on stuff um then that's you could have done something useful with that but you know you chucked it away on dumb stuff and so it's it's it's it's about that really I think you just have to be kind of values driven so that regardless of kind of how much money you have with your kids that they are kind of making values based decisions about what they do with it is there a time where no matter you know if you've done what you can to help your children understand the value of what they're investing in and how that aligns to your family values and ultimately theirs then the teenage years come and social media and you're I'm generalizing but I feel like that's where you start to go oh what are my values or what you know these are my values your friends take over your family in that regard how how can you help your teenagers be and they're sting to an income they set you know they might be doing part-time job how can you help them be best set up for success and it's like everything like parenting is essentially it's a long conversation and so it's not like you do one thing and it's like okay we've done that we did money from s to 9 and now that's sorted um you you you it's just this continuous kind of ongoing conversation and so even though you know when they get to the teenage years your at one level your your direct influence over them starts to get less and less because they can go out and they can do more stuff and they can live their own life and so then it becomes more kind of shifting into that um kind of conversation coaching question stuff um but you know teenagers are more influenced by their friends values with the external things but that internal value stuff like they're mat more influenced by the stuff that they see in the families and so if you've kind of if you get to the teenage years and you've raised them with this idea that actually you know your job is to be a good human and not and to kind of help people uh and not to be a dick uh or to be annoying um then they're less likely to kind of do those things and there are lots of times when kids go wonky and teenage years and they go off and do stuff and it's like pretty crazy uh but then eventually they kind of come back you know I've been working with families long enough to have seen teenagers who just were so just a long way off the rails and driving their parents crazy and you know I remember one dude I bumped into him in Queen Street and he was I don't know mid 20s and this guy in a suit looking all like Su and uh Cory he went oh hey and he went hey and it was this kid that I'd see when he was like 14 and he was with this girl and she was doing this stuff and he was that and it was running away and it was all terrible and it's like and now he was like he was an accountant working in a big FM in Queen Street and he was fine and I just thought I wish your poor mom could have seen this when you were 14 I wish you could have just caught a little glimpse of us cuz I know that you probably taken years off her life and he was just this lovely young man I mean most people get through stuff and they calm down you know for most of us you think back to the dumb stuff we all did stuff from we teenagers it's just that people Wen recording it and posting it back then so we we didn't kind of know yeah I'm I'm already apprehensive about when my daughter is a teenager cuz I know what me and my friends were like with our moms and I know this just like this period I'm going to have to most of it you w like if you're lucky most of it you won't hear about and so mine are now my my two boys are now old enough that I'm starting to hear about stuff so like every time I go and have dinner with my youngest son he tells me it's but some new thing har you remember that what so it's we do this weird thing now with kids where we we we say hey talk to me talk to me about their feelings and what's happening talk to me talk to me talk to me tell me about your life and things and then they do we think wow yeah cuz and I think it's good that we do that and then but we shouldn't be surprised when they do and then then we have to like oh you just told me whoa this really weird stuff that your friends are doing and then you you can't freak out you have to be like okay let's just breathe their way through this and you if you ask them to talk to you they will sometimes when you reflect on yourself as a dad um and how you have How does Nigel feel about the money lessons he's instilled in his kids? interacted with money with your children or what You' have installed in them is anything you really proud of or like a moment where you're like oh I think that really helped them differ like so I think what one of the things that we kind of tried to do is um like I think it's fine to give your kids stuff but you should give them stuff because you want to give them stuff not just because they expect it or whatever and so you know when it get little do stuff but I remember um again like the youngest guy I think we're in Queenstown or something and he wanted this silver Money Box Thing from smuggle and like he never he was actually really mow kid like he would never have he had this fullon 2our long meltdown because he had I don't know know four bucks or something and it was going to cost $450 and I chose that moment to teach him a little money lesson and like to be honest about 20 minutes in I was thinking oh man I wish hadn't wish should just given the kid the 50 cents cuz it's just getting really boring but it's like I don't I don't believe that he didn't he hasn't sat down you know Papa that day in Queens I changed my outlook on life um he just remembers being like really angry about us at the time so we just generally tried to with um to do the stuff with money that we did with other stuff which is that you know you you just have to try to be a kind of a good human and to do stuff that doesn't you know like make your own thing but don't do things that kind of hurt other people are bad for other people so and to try to teach them things like you know you got to things happen and so you have to have a plan so we would kind of talk to them about um you know this is a this is what we're doing and this is the plan and um yeah so but I I if I look back to my two I'd actually think it's more about their two individual little personales and temperament so like I don't think I don't think there was anything any of that stuff that we didn't here necessarily that made a difference but I think as part of I think you need to see the money conversations with kids as being part of all of that stuff like a it's a really important part of life and so if you don't talk to them about it they're not going to have a way to understand it and if you you know if you got a lot of money and some people do worry about what their kids will do and it's like well so then what you have to do is you have to teach your kids how to be a good human being if you got a lot of money like I know people whose kids don't ever have to work if they don't want to and and and there's a concern about so how's that going to impact them it's like well you that's stuff you have to talk about like that you have to like it's it's not a bad position to be in but also it'd be pretty easy to be a pretty like if I was if I was a teenager and knew that I was going to be independently wealthy whatever I'd be like whoa I'm not doing anything mean like so it's hard um yeah know it has to be part of a broader I think values conversation I really feel more relaxed The Importance of Open Conversations about Money after talking to you because I feel like what you're saying is it's really about the open conversations you're having in the household the values that you've set up and it's not you it's not about oh if you do this one thing you're going to set them on this trajectory or not it's it's having that dialogue and making sure those values are communicated through the value exchange you're doing with money whether it be investing or it really is and it like I think it helps if you if they can understand some of those things about comp like if they can understand things like compound interest that's like these are good things to get your head around passive income having a plan like all these are all good things to but it all happens within this big conversation in your family that's around values and and it's sted by the kid in front of you you know I I've got two boys and then my partner we got the three so kind of and they're all different like they're all very different they're all very different kids and so what you do with one isn't the same as what you do with the other and so a large B of A is the it is I'm don't bang on about it the B you understand you kind of that your kids temperament and who they are and how they work and how they do stuff then you can you can cater the convers I like my oldest blessing um very persistent little very stubborn little guy and so what I worked out really early on I like just telling him to do stuff that was always going to end in a fight so I spend a lot of time saying all right well you can do this you can do that like these are your options I can't make a decision for you it's really up to you you know this that um so you're still managing the situation but I'm I'm taking I'm saying to them well you have to choose I can't choose for you and I just kind of learned that whereas with the other one it's like hey can you do that it's like okay it's also interesting communicating your choices too so you know cost of living is is getting a is higher and so you might not have certain things in the household you used to um because it's just become more expensive and and communicating that we had that you know that was a choice and this has happened so we're doing this with our money now and it's opening up that that is why things might be changing or what you know where your focus is at the moment in terms of well and and too as they get older I think you have to have conversations with them about the wider world of money because like there are there you know it is things like you know the counternarrative that poor people are poor because they're lazy and they don't work hard and it's like well actually most people are poor because they get paid the minimum wage and so they're actually working 70 or 80 hours a week like when we've gone out and talked to and I've worked in homes and under fam where they're working far harder than I've ever worked um and so you know the things like having conversations with your kids about how they think about stuff cuz they they get to vote at some point so you have to decide like you know what do you think about all the stuff about taxes and tax rates and do we help other people out or do we just all help ourselves and what do we do about that and you know and generally what happens in the world is as as more of us get closer to the edge we suddenly decide that safety needs are a great thing so all the people that winged about the doll bludgers Co comes along and it's like we get resurging payments there's big safety in there everyone's going oh this great and then once we get more comfortable again we forget that learning and some people can't move on so it's about that bigger stuff too like and it's not telling them what to think but just asking them questions about so what do you what do you think about the stuff like what's their Collective what's their Collective respon I mean I vote for higher taxes because because I know that in a world where you know if you I pay almost no taxes I live in that world like that's a terrible world and so so I actively I actively you know kind of vote for stuff that is worse for me personally because my belief is um that it's worse for me personally in terms of some of the number stuff but it's better in terms of the place that I kind of want to live in and how things go but you know I got a real visual too of that how you said parenting is a lifelong conversation and you can just Parenting is a long conversation see it from you know when your your child is Young and you might be teaching them how to delay gratification through the marsh T chocolates to to then yeah voting with it you how money starts conversation start to go into Tex and you know my my oldest is now working and is doing kiwi saver and so we're now having conversations about which kiwi sa scheme he's in and what he thinks about that stuff and it's just like we're back to when you know a little person which is like yeah I know but uh nah you know so so yeah it's like that stuff it just it doesn't kind of end it is it is a it is a long conversation and it's just like anything it's not a separate conversation and it's not like one single thing is the be all or end all of anything it's like they're all part of the same sort of long thing but you do you kind of you have to be mindful to it and pay attention to it you have I think it's a really good and important thing to talk to kids about money um and and all of the stuff um you can't just think they'll just soak it up cuz they might they'll just soak up idiots stuff from YouTube like oh you check GB you make $80,000 in a week yeah no you didn't mate and that's also a little bit why we started with investing here too is cuz we there's such a Negative perception around money and it feels really taboo that investing is really hopeful it's about oh creating the future and what's the future I want and where's that money going and once people start to get into that habit they start to think about budgeting and oh actually my money could be working harder for me and it was more the hopeful side and I would love to see more people and the world in particular like feel more um that their money's working for them that they're not you know well Shar is like money for normal people right cuz until this came along like sheares were stuff that like people on Wall Street did you know and and Leonardo Dicaprio and you know what was it the W for war like people you know like it was this weird world people buy sell yell BL um and so so and so yes sh is about the stuff of normal people it's like oh no no this this isn't this impenetrable complicated world like it is like that stuff is actually available to all of us and so there are some things that we can all do to kind of make better decisions and end up in a b place like if I if i' if I knew when I was like starting off what I know now I would have be ending my life in a way different financial position like just way different I would have made some really different decisions and so it is I think really important and to to you know and particularly in a world where like the traditional idea is been that I you know I'll buy a home and that'll be my Bigg well for more and more and more people that's just never going to happen and so so then what do you do with your money and you have to have ways to understand that basic concept of like making your money work for you like that passive income stuff like you just put in a thing and then it does stuff that's a really um that's a really important idea and and increasingly we're going to have to you know those traditional roots of of building some sort of Legacy which is the house that you it's just not going to be for most people yeah I mean that's a big reason why we started shies and The Role of Technology in Teaching Financial Literacy also kids for shes we we just had our first kid and some of the other Founders had too and we're like well we want to be able to we want them to start with what we always wish we could have which was being able to build wealth over time with M can we can afford and yeah have got Sav and yeah there's so much more to do it feel so yeah yeah yeah anything else you would like to mention or feel like it's left unid no just be careful of scams everyone out there yeah you know check your emails check your get your good virus proteor on your devices and uh yeah don't don't click on the links I don't click on any links for I've always been quite really careful but I'm super careful now so even though if I get an email from um it say Dropbox and it said oh you need to blah blah blah click this link and it I look at the like I'm pretty sure that but I don't I go to the Dropbox website and I log in through the back in I do that kind of stuff um so yeah like you just have to be uh really Vigilant and that's again the scam conversation stuff when you to do with kids too like just teaching them some stuff because it's astounding what they think I've spoke to a young person I won't say her name but she knows who she is who her and her friends think that if you watch you know the the the website you can watch pirate movies and stuff they think that if you watch that on your phone using data that you w get caught it's only if you're watching it on your Wii at home it's like oh no it's still link no that's not that's so it is about giving them all that stuff too yeah yeah nice and also check out parent land when it comes out if you want more indeed tips on the Fuller parenting Journey yeah the FY monkey that's how it's coming I had this idea cuz like reward charts are really boring right yes so we've got this one basically it's a little monkey it's a little animation and uh you choose how many bananas you give it and then when you when you get to the agreed Target that where you get your reward uh to mark that the monkey does this long just really long long F very I spent I think I spent about three weeks so you you use this app with with kids yeah with your kids yeah it's your little reward chats like oh you did something well right give them monkey a banana boom and then when you get to five you get thing I spent three weeks mixing the sound for that so I got all these fat tracks off a website and um I had this weird but kind of fun two weeks of just doing the sound mix on various farts with soundtracks and elephants and it was just it was it was good fun yeah my daughter uses Reading Eggs and she really likes it but there's this one part where there's this piano and you can make the piano play fart noises and she who would not want to make the piano play Fat noise like you're just going to do it yeah um but hey thanks so much for Conclusion your um insights around money and I think it is really just important kind of to know that there isn't a wrong way it's just about sharing the values and having those open Communications and keeping that dialogue yeah and just watching it grow and evolv from there yeah nice the long conversation the long conversation