The Trump team is touting the former president's debate with Kamala Harris as a big success. Their words big success. Even as the reaction from viewers and pundits suggests otherwise. We're joined now by CNN political analyst and longtime Trump watcher Maggie Haberman of The New York Times. And Maggie, thanks for joining us. Trump claims last night was his, quote, best debate performance. We saw him go to the spin room immediately afterward. Do you think he knows he lost? I think he knows that he may not have performed so optimally. well, considering how we have seen him aggressively pushing back on any criticisms and declaring that he won a debate, that by every objective voice I've seen, it's widely agreed upon that he did not win. He lost. what that means for the campaign and the election, I think, is an open question. We're going to know more in the coming days. We'll see what the polls show. We'll see if Vice President Harris gets a bump. But, Donald Trump had a rough outing. It was, arguably the worst debate. And certainly, you know, you don't think it was the worst. It was the second worst debate that he has had since he entered the political scene. The arguably worst one would be against President Biden in 2020. Yeah, it was pretty bad last night for Trump. Trump repeatedly took the bait last night. As you know, something his advisers and allies said he wouldn't do. I want to play one of those key moments. Listen to this. All I do is you will see. During the course of his rallies, he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter. He will talk about windmills, cause cancer, and what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom. People don't go to her rallies. There's no reason to go. And the people that do go, she's busing them in and paying them to be there and then showing them in a different light. So she can't talk about that. People don't leave my rallies. We have the biggest rallies, the most incredible rallies in the history of politics. The question Trump was asked, Maggie, was about the border, yet he ended up talking about crowd sizes. Did it surprise you how easily he was provoked by Kamala Harris? It honestly didn't surprise me, Wolf. I thought there was a chance of this. Just given that he has such contempt for her, has made that very clear. That immigration non-answer, or at least the question on immigration that he then proceeded to talk about his crowd size about was actually a mirror image to a problem that President Biden had in their June debate, where he was asked a question on abortion. President Biden's best issue just as immigration is one of Donald Trump's best issues, and Biden proceeded to pivot away from abortion and talked about immigration, his worst issue in this case. Crowd size is not Donald Trump's worst issue. It's just an irrelevant issue. And that allows Vice President Harris to say he is only interested in himself and talking about himself. It was a lot of missed opportunities, Wolf. I don't know how much new people learned about Donald Trump, although arguing that immigrants are eating pets from the debate stage probably is going to get some attention. For the most part, viewers have seen this kind of rhetoric from Donald Trump a lot, and he does these things at rallies as well. But this is a moment that millions and millions of Americans were tuning in for. It's just very different. The former president, as you know, Maggie, is also not yet committing to a second debate with Kamala Harris. What does that tell you? And do you think he will see? We will see another debate. I think there's a chance. Well, I mean, I think we're going to see what the polling looks like, and we're going to see if the campaign feels like they need to do it for whatever their purposes are. Look, he he toyed with the idea of dropping out of this ABC debate. That was last night in the days leading up to it. So I expect that we're not going to hear anything concrete from him for a while. We know that Vice President Harris, his team, immediately challenged him to another debate because they believe that they did well and they wanted to try to set the stage for him not agreeing and suggesting that he is scared and worried about doing it. I do think there's a chance he will, we'll wait and see. We will indeed. And perhaps the most bizarre moment, Maggie, from last night. Trump seized on that rather wild conspiracy theory that Haitian immigrants were eating pets here in the United States. I want to play that for you. Listen to this. Would you still in Springfield? They're eating the dogs. The people that came in, they're eating the cats. They're eating. They're eating the pets of the people that live there. And this is what's happening in our country. And it's a shame that we. Maggie, what are you hearing from the Trump team about that? Look, publicly, the Trump team is, you know, saying that he had an outstanding performance and they're not surprised. Privately, a number of supporters, allies and advisers would rather he not have talked about that, that cats and dogs, you know conspiracy theory because it just stands out. And it's just a moment again where a lot of people are paying attention. This is, an unfounded claim that he is making to demagogue immigrants. But, you know, they're more concerned about the fact, bluntly, Wolf, that he did not make a case tying Vice President Harris, not just tying him her to President Biden, but also making her sort of own their three and a half years in office. That was the goal for this debate. He had one opportunity after another to do it, and he did not do it. Maggie Haberman, thank you very much for joining us.