Unveiling Leonard Leo, The Political Wizard of Oz

[Music] hello everyone welcome to another episode of advocacy Arena and here today with me my guest is Tom Carter I'm so excited to have him here because he is going to um share some things with us about um um a person that we have all been hearing about if you listen to advocacy Arena you've heard of him but not a lot of people do and I'm so glad that I met Tom um because he's someone who's very knowledgeable about this person and um Tom I am uh going to give you an opportunity to say hello and tell folks a little bit about yourself uh Hi D thank you very much for having me I'm uh really appreciate you uh taking the time to talk with me and um my name is Tom Carter I've uh lived in Washington DC for the last 40 years I was a reporter at the Washington times for 25 of those years after I left uh journalism I was uh the public relations Communications guy at the Becket fund for religious liberty uh and then for three years after that at the US Commission on International religious freedom um uh the communications guy there as well I was a government employee but because of a number of things that happened at the US commission the government agency where I was working uh Leonard Leo who was a political appointee uh became my boss for three years so yeah I worked under Leonard Leo for uh three years um 2009 to 2012 um since then I've been trying to warn reporters about who he is and what he is he's become better known in the last couple of years but back in 2010 2011 he was just another one of the tens of thousands of lobbyists in DC and reporters and reporters didn't think he was worth much of a story um in 2016 he uh became what is now known as the Trump Whisperer the judge Whisperer he he helped uh Place uh three Supreme Court Justices under Trump um Neil Gorsuch uh red Kavanagh and Amy Cony Barrett but what most people don't know is he was also instrumental in placing three others before Trump he helped campaign Clarence yeah he helped campaign and get Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court and he was the bush Whisperer getting uh Roberts and um Alito onto the Supreme Court so there are nine Supreme Court Justices and Leonard Leo was instrumental in getting six of them on the Supreme Court wow yeah pretty scary one guy very so what do you think people need to know most about Le Leonard Leo well basically that he is a person who exists he has been he has been hiding behind the curtain and getting a lot of work done like the like uh in The Wizard of Oz for years that's what I Envision and nobody knows who he is or very few people like I said more people are beginning to know who he is now but um for example I live a couple of blocks from the Supreme Court and when dos was and when dos was announced I I walk up there sometimes if there's a big case and I know there's going to be people out there and I walked up there to see you know to watch the demonstration is what it boiled down to and uh there were maybe certainly 6 800 people there maybe a thousand or two wandering around you know protesting pro and con dobs and obviously a number of journalists uh a number of reporters came up to me and asked me for a comment because I had on a um an anti-trump t-shirt it said uh has a picture of trump and says Pinchy pendo and uh can you can you swear on this podcast gu yes sure be yourself your authentic self okay pipido in Spanish means and a lot of people several reporters came up to me and asked me you know for a comment and I would say before I would comment sure I'm happy to comment who do you work for uh and then I would say have you ever heard of Leonard Leo and not one reporter who was reporting on the Dos uh announcement that day had ever heard of Leonard Leo you got to be kidding me I am not kidding you I went up again for the Mi Prestone announcement um this was fairly recently at that time maybe a third of the reporters had heard of Leo but two third said not he's basically um hidden behind a curtain uh Puppet Master kind of thing doing work all over Washington so not only is he um directly responsible for six different Supreme Court Justices being on the six n uh 6 to3 Supreme Court um he's also instrumental in um project 2025 I'm sure you have heard of I'm sure you've heard of that I don't know about your listeners but it is a a 900 page um blueprint for um the next Republican Trump presidency if he's elected in November 900 pages of what they plan to do and there's about a hundred different groups involved the Heritage Foundation is number one but Leonard is involved in Staffing and close relationships and funding 50 of those 100 groups he's also involved in several of his what I would call Leo lieutenants are directly involved with the Heritage Foundation project 2025 Kevin Roberts who runs the Heritage Foundation and and another guy named Roger seino are are directly involved in Project 2025 and so he's got his fingers in a lot of Pies put it that way yes um and uh you've covered several of the questions that I was going to ask you in your response there so I really do um appreciate that so what you know kind it's obvious to me but maybe others who are are listening may not understand so what do you see as the danger that he poses the the impact that he is having and the potential um to have in in this country well the potential is already happening I mean if you look at the if you look at the the Supreme Court findings of the last few years on guns on climate change on uh Federal Regulation um on women's health abortion contraception that sort of thing they are all very much opposed um to basically the freedoms that we have enjoyed the last 20 30 40 50 years and More in effect the Supreme Court is trying to some people have said Erase the 20th century and what that boils down to is uh going back to um FDR Frank Roosevelt in the New Deal the New Deal gave us Social Security um the the right for unions to for people to join unions a whole bunch of social safety net issues that we take for granted today right and they're trying they're rolling those the the FDR New Deal back um they're also uh LBJ uh lynon M johnon gave us the voting right act the Civil Rights Act they're trying and succeeding in Rolling those things back as well and this argument uh has been going on for hundreds of years in the United States going back to the late uh 1800s basically when Rich oligarchs could do anything they want they building the ra railroads and the mines and all the things that they did with zero Federal Regulation right and and what FDR put into the the very first federal government regulation came into being over the railroads back in the late 1800s and it's been you know the federal um reach put it that way has grown in the last 100 120 years and the the oligarchs the rich um uh billionair like that they don't like that they don't like the taxes that they have to pay and they don't like the Federal Regulation so in today's world that we're living in now the uh the oligarchs the oil billionaires the cokes the scaes the oines Barry S um to name a few are basically trying to roll back what some what lawyers have said the 20th century go back to a time when there were no taxes and there were no regulations but they have found their ideas extremely unpopular um uh the Koch brothers one of them ran as a Libertarian vice presidential candidate in the late 1970s or early 1980s I'd have to go look it up it was the uh yeah it was the early um I think it was the early 80s um I used to know that and he he got 1.6% of the popular vote I mean and that platform that he ran on is basically project 2025 today exactly oh I love you Tom I love you I've been telling the folks uh the story of project 2025 and trying to introduce them to you know some of the folks so I love that um you know you say that because I uh talk about the cokes a lot I have some you know kind of personal connections to them well anybody interested in the cokes needs to read Jane mayor's dark money that is absolutely that lays out but but it's a three-part it's a three-part uh I don't know Fork prong whatever you want to want to call it basically it's the rich rich billionaires who want no taxes and no regulation they have no support in the late in the early 1980s late 1970s um a guy named Paul wrick right was with also with no constituency one of the found a very hard right far far-right Catholic who has said the more people vote the more we lose we don't want ex he he was looking he basically didn't have a large population follow following his organ his ideas as well very farri Catholics so he went to uh Jerry fwell and said let's make a deal let's get together and work together what the they got together over abortion but that's not what got them together what got them together was a supreme court finding called Bob Jones Bob Jones was Bob Jones University a Christian University that was opposed uh interracial dating interracial marriage because the Bible told them so now the Supreme Court found that Bob Jones University was more than welcome to have its religious freedom and practice its basically racist uh perspective segregationist right from the Bible uh but they were not if they were going to do that they were not allowed to have Federal subsidies and they were going to lose their tax exempt status that sent shock waves through the Christian um private school world because if the Supreme Court could take away their tax exemption their subsidies they could take them away from them as well now the the Christian private school world came about because of an early 1950s Supreme Court finding that said you know uh little black children get to go to school with little white children separation uh is separate is not equal and so a bunch of white people uh lost their minds they lost their minds I mean Virginia Public Schools in some counties were closed literally for months if not years opposing opposing this uh Supreme Court finding I did an episode about that during Black History Month um exact yeah it's really and so Jerry fwell and Paul wrick you know moving up to the late 1970s well we can't sell racism that's really what we're concerned about is them taking away our our um tax exemption from our Christian Schools but what can we sell what can we sell what can we sell how about abortion that's where the entire anti-abortion movement came about the Catholics already had an anti-abortion infrastructure but at that time there was no uh there was there was not much put it that way um uh opposition in the Protestant Christian world to abortion there was no organization around it but with the um Jerry fwell and uh Paul wrick you know dark room deal as it were then the the uh billionaires had somebody to fund but if if you go move it on up am I talking too much no no no I love it because th this is why I wanted you to be um a guest on here because I talk about dark money all the time another person I'm glad that you mentioned Jame Meer uh another person that I mentioned is an Nelson because you know I know what you were describing there the work of the the council for National policy and so I want people to know more about that organization and the people who found it who are still operating it and that's why lonard Leo um was someone that I wanted to highlight because you have such great knowledge about him well well what happened l and Nelson's book Shadow network is brilliant and it's all about how the council National policy came about there's a new uh documentary based on her book which yes they just follow me on um Twitter today because I really um I've given the community an assignment everyone to watch it and tell me what they think well the other excellent the other part of that the other part of the of national policy is what Katherine Stewart has written about in a book called Power worshippers they are it's it's like the history and the rise of of uh Christian nationalism is what at boil toown bound to Evangelical Christian nationalism but and here's the interesting part and here's where L Leonard Leo comes in he's a member of the Council of national policy as is uh Jenny Thomas and Mike yes but but what Leonard Leo did that these that the um uh oil billionaires who were tied end with the birchers and so forth didn't have and what the council and National policy and what this religious Coalition anti-abortion religious Coalition didn't have was a structure and infrastructure in Washington DC to actually get stuff done so that's where Leonard Leo comes in he has stacked the he and and Leonard realized 30 years ago that we can't win at The Ballot Box the only way we can win is if we stack the courts and that's why he stacked the Supreme Court with Far Right extremist Catholics Leonard is a far right extremist Catholic and while they a number of things that is that that Opus de um well Opus de is a far-right extremist Catholic organization and Leonard Leo says he's not a member however he donates tens of thousands of dollars to it his daughter's picture sits over the front desk a large large portrait of her being embraced by Jesus uh she passed away a number of years ago and and there is and people can pray to her for miracles and so on and so forth uh he sends his kids to an opus day high school called The Heights here in in Washington DC I mean he's he says he's not a member but that's like saying youan isn't supplying terrorist groups with um you know missiles or something right like sure Jan yeah he's he's absolutely a funer and fellow tra ER of of Opus day and um they anyway the also Kevin Roberts who is um yes part of uh the the head of the Heritage Foundation in part of 2025 he is also what some people might call Opus de adjacent he's very hard right extremist Catholic as is Roger srino who wrote the entire section on women's health and remove uh um making abortion illegal making contraception illegal anti-g lbtq stuff uh he's also um Opus de adjacent put it that way yeah so why don't you think that like we are all like part of the reason I have you on and I know a lot of other reporters and and people are now focusing on them why don't you think people focused on them like 10 or 15 years ago that's a very good question and I wish someone would ask David Korn at Mother Jones who I briefed deeply Robert Draper at the New York Times who I gave a long briefing to on leard Leo um Ian bouser he was at Think Progress he's now at Vox long briefing Jack Jenkins who is at Religion News service Carl htz also at the New York Times that I think it this stuff was not a secret um right Carl Carl htz at the New York Times at a public gathering to um uh for his book on Kavanaugh spoke about DC's Catholic Mafia this is known people know about DC's Catholic Mafia but they're afraid to write about it and I think because they're AF afraid to be called religious bigots um a few a few the the um Sarah pner who has written a lot about the um Christian nationalists and evangelicals has written a book uh or not a book but an article called the Catholic Playbook and it's all about how if you say anything about Catholics whether it be Amy cone Barrett um or Kavanaugh or anybody like that there's an ENT entire structure of people who will come after you hard and say you're a bigot um Heidi umbala if that's how you say her last name yeah at Politico has written about Leonard Leo a little bit actually no more more than most uh right um and she wrote an article oh a few months ago about how the DC attorney general is investigating Leonard Leo H and the the uh and she she talked a little bit about natural law versus um the laws which we are which is a very Catholic concept of um Thomas aquinus and and Leonard Leo has spoken about it versus our laws being given to us by the Constitution and so on and so forth and you wouldn't believe it uh the far-right Catholic World Went Crazy a guy named Bishop Baron who has a website um a podcast called word on fire or something to that effect the a bunch of people came after her I mean and said you know she's a bigot she doesn't know what she's talking about blah blah blah the real issue was not whether she's a bigot or not she's not by the way if you read her stories there's nothing bigoted in them at all uh the real issue was she exposed Leonard Leo and the DC attorney general um is coming after her is is coming after Leo they're investigating him that's the issue that's the issue I mean it's even up here on Capitol Hill in my neighborhood there are signs everywhere uh recall Allen I'm in I'm in zone six and zone six is is U our representative in the DC council is a very popular um uh councilman but he said some things in favor of uh black lives matter and and that sort of thing and so there is a there is a um a recall effort wow um yeah and and Leonard and some of and Carrie Carrie srino who is the wife of uh Roger seino who runs Leonard Leo's judicial crisis network has been has tweeted about this and how you know you know he doesn't care about the the guy's name is Brian schwabb he doesn't care about crime in DC all he cares about is a politically motivated investigation of basically her mentor and um to some degree boss Leonard Leo so I mean it's it's it's fascinating to watch this uh and um and scary because the more I learn about them and the scary you know it becomes but I feel like that the more of a reason to know and understand what they are doing because um I think an Nelson kind of opened my eyes to um you know folks like that because of the system the infrastructure is where the power lies and that uh Paul wrick and you know how he you know kind of just brought them all together there and um I I find it interesting that you did mention like this project 2025 wanting to basically strip away the 20th century and and some of my I'm kind of a history nerd I I'm big fan of Heather Cox Richardson and uh read and watch her and um started learning about really what I consider an an earlier ination of project 2025 and that was the conservative Manifesto which the bercher society created so these guys have been around for a really really long time and they just kind of built their infrastructure too H it just keeps getting bigger and better unfortunately unfortunately I you know I think the one thing I mean if you're a history nerd then I urge you to go uh Google Catholic integralism Catholic liberalism is a philosophy that's been around for a hundred 200 years and basically what it boil the the primary aspect of it is there is no separation of church and state you're on this planet to save your soul that's you were born here and you have to be saved and therefore everything including the state must be geared towards saving your soul and the only way the state can help you save your soul is by following the teachings of the Catholic church so Christian nationalism well it's Christian nationalism but it's with a it's definitely with a Catholic flavor and you know I think I mean Chris integralists and Opus Dei for example were very very involved with uh Franco Spain franos Franco fascist Spain and and you talked about going back back to the birchers um you know William Buckley uh Pat banan from those days all of these guys are big admirers of Franco Spain because he fought communism and he was EST he he established a Catholic State one of the philosophers that that integralists admire and and you know they draw on frequently is a guy named Carl Schmidt who was the primary uh legal Authority and philosopher for the Nazi State wow yeah I mean you just go are you kidding me so you know the you project 2025 with the Supreme Court with a Leo Supreme Court to rubber stamp it is the road map for a Catholic Christof fascist State and there we go so we we are running out of time Tom um I wanted I I I would love to talk to you again you have shared so much and then made me curious about so many other things I want you I want to give you an opportunity to just kind of tell folks where they can find you and leave them with something to you know pearl of wisdom or something to research before we close out and and um well I'm I'm on Twitter I think I think I'm shadowban and I've been blocked from following anybody so I'm not I'm not exactly sure what kind of Twitter jail I'm in but uh I'm there you can find me Tom Carter I think it's uh th Carter 5 is and I'll put this information when I post the um interview um I think a book that doesn't get enough um I mentioned Jane mayor's book Katherine Stewart and Nelson but Nancy mcan's Book you said you're a history uh buff she talks about how libertarian ideas came to George Mason University and have then since been disseminated uh through Washington DC oh fasc FC fascinating book on um how John C Calhoun's uh states rights libertarian ideology was picked up by a guy named Jes banan uh the Koch brothers fell in love with it basically installed this guy at George Mason University they've also spent millions and millions of dollars through Leonard Leo um taking over George Mason law school it's now the anonin Scalia law school and a lot of times when you hear um for example Eileen Cannon went on a a junket sponsored by the Federalist Society and Leonard Leo it's often it's through the anonin spala law school at George Mason uh they're also doing the same thing at Catholic University a guy named Tim Bush and the Nappa Napa Institute and this is all very uh integralist integralism Catholic uh bought the bought the um naming rights for Catholic um universities Business Schools now the bush wow you have given me some homework Tom well it's it's complicated it's a strange a strange web you have to give Le Leo Leonard credit he's he's done an astonishing he's created an astonishing network of people and um and now they're actually now they're buying millions and millions of dollars of property up here in Capitol Hill a guy Thomas edol in the New York Times wrote about this fairly recently about Heritage uh the the F the family the SE Street stuff and Steve Bannon all buying property on on Capitol Hill which also ties into somehow with u Leo uh folks opposing uh our SE Street uh representation or not our SE street but our zone six representation so I mean it's uh it's a very it's a very layered and complex uh operation like a Leo's like a a chess master playing on three or four different boards and it doesn't matter what your issue is whether it's whether it's Women's Health and abortion or whether it's climate change or whether it's guns uh What U um CRT in schools no matter what issue you are interested in um pretty good chance project 2025 is opposed to it opposed to your position and Leonard Leo as a supreme court that's going to rubber stamp it and make it the law of the land Amen to that I think that's a very good note for us to end on and I would like to extend an invitation for you to come back for part two I feel like we just scratched the surface and I love having someone um who is as knowledgeable as you to talk about a subject that I have just become intrigued with and I'm trying to share that information with others well thank you very much for having me I'm always happy to I'm happy to come back and I'm always happy to try to uh um spread the word regarding Leonard Leo and um the project 2025 all right well folks um you heard it here um you got a little smarter I know you did today about Leonard Leo and I can't wait um to dig into some of the um books and um the reporters that Tom uh suggest that we um follow and uh learn a little bit more the more we know okay knowledge is power thanks again Tom have a beautiful rest of your day thank you very much talk soon all right bye