Generation Jihad - Ep. 210 — 23 years since 9/11

hello everyone I'm Bill rajio I'm a senior fellow at foundation for defense of democracies and editor of fdd's long War Journal this is Generation Jihad the podcast that covers all things in what used to be known as the global war on terror but we now call the long War joined today by my co-host on Wednesdays uh will sber will um is a man who wears many hats he's a retired Middle East foreign area officer contributor to the bullwark proprietor of grumpy combat veteran and Friends highly recommend you uh go and subscribe to Will and uh and grumpy comat veteran and friends on substack um we'll also host the podcast shoulder-to-shoulder untold stories from a forgotten war and stories from my brothers tales of the Afghan Security Forces hello will welcome back happy Wednesday I guess yeah what a it's going to be an upbeat episode I have a feeling in my bones I mean the anniversary of 911 we're just gonna get into it's gonna be upbeat yeah it's I I you know I Was preparing for this today will I think I was telling you earlier I really wanted to crack a beer for this episode because it's just a it's a solemn day it's a it's it's one that weighs heavily on me it's a a day we should not as Americans should not forget but I fear many have and they forgotten all too easily look I understand those who were born afterwards it's probably like you know Pearl Harbor to me but Pearl Harbor frankly pisses me off too and um you know look I'm still pissed off at the British for the Revolutionary I'm Italian I could hold a grudge man so there you go R there you go I love it you know that's that's just me but I I just wish we you know as a country had a little bit more of that in us um well we're we're joined by a special guests today are a friend of generation Jihad even though she hasn't been on um uh uh Beth bayy she's uh the head or the proprietor of the Afghanistan project podcast um Beth does wonderful work I highly recommend you all go over and listen to Beth and you can follow Beth on BW Bailey 85 and follow her on X or what used to be known as Twitter um Beth served in the intelligence community and covered the Taliban and a host of other issues Beth welcome to generation Jihad so good to have you on oh it is amazing to be here and that was the best introduction I've ever had so thank you for that too well well thanks a lot B you've been on my podcast before now I got Thanks a Lot bill now I'm gonna have to like raise my level thanks I'm I'm all for it I'm all for it I really had to do out will on that just but no but it's heartfelt I've been on best podcast a couple times um really very range of topics on Afghanistan just like will does on his two podcasts Beth covers a lot of issues touches a lot of the issues we don't cover I mean look with generation Jihad we're covering the terrorist groups the individuals what's happening in the war um but Beth and and will they get far deeper into the issues of Afghanistan and those who fought into those Wars and I'm I'm envious and uh in their ability to uh Broach those topics to cover them in depth and I'm thankful that they they do what they do you're very kind that's um look anyone who knows me knows I don't blow smoke um I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true so you're you seen my I don't know I've just always you know thought you maybe you're an optimistic fellow just like you well just like exactly right he's grumpier than me he's grumpier than me I would not take any gr he he's the grumpiest I'm going to you know touch I remember when I was the eternal optimist and that was in the 2000s and look like I supported the surge in Iraq when you could fit the number of people who thought it was a good idea in Washington DC you could put them in a phone booth you know and because I was a Believer right and you know but it's not the guys fighting it's not the you know the wills and beths of the world who've you know served our country we I don't blame them it's our leadership it's our military leadership our political leadership that has led us down and it's hard to be an optimist in these in these circumstances I so anyway but I I I um I surround myself with people who are a little bit more optimistic than me and then then I just I'll take all the bullets it's all that's a way yeah so Beth um you worked in the intelligence Community um tell us a little bit about yourself what you've done um and how you got to where you are today yeah so I developed an obsession with Afghanistan or you can call it a God moment whatever it was like Afghanistan just spoke to me and I knew I had to work on trying to improve that country um I was an optimist as well Bill back in those headyy days of my youth and I got a job offer with the National Ground Intelligence Center right out of college and started in that role advising senior leadership about what was going on with Taliban senior leadership and I took it so seriously it mattered so much to me I had analyst notebooks that were just like 300 person collections of personalities and uh just at the same time that that was happening I was madly in love with this infantry Marine who had just finished ioc and he it was The Surge you know he was getting ready to probably get sent over to helmet and uh luckily he didn't get sent to Helman until later in 2011 when we weren't dating any longer but those things happened at the same time and I was like oh my gosh you know what you're doing here really matters because people like your boyfriend are going to be In Harm's Way and you better do a damn good job so um I did the best job I could and in 2013 I Departed the intelligence community and uh proceeded to just grow very angry about what was happening with Afghanistan because it was going all in the wrong direction I think I was there I believed in The Surge I really thought that it was going to make a difference and then it was very clear that it was just going to cost lots of blood and we weren't going to retain the territory that we gained and it just slowly slid back to Taliban control and we started negotiating with the Taliban and that's um where I led in 2013 to just being an angry house wife watching not watching the Taliban in Afghanistan anymore for several years yeah I think that you know the Afghan sege that's when I think my I became skeptical of the whole thing that's when I knew I knew it wasn't going to work I remember Tom Joselyn and I talking about it writing about it that it was just not going to be resourced properly that the time limitation that the president put on it just the way that it was implemented um there was much division between the military and the um and the the Obama Administration um it was basically coerced on the Obama Administration and just yeah I was just cynical about that at that point I think it's been all downhill since um I would I mean bill I would just like to say that I would Echo beath like captain selber during Obama's surge was proud to serve he he was you know he had been he I it was my first Afghan hand assignment um I had already served once in h Afghanistan on a provincial reconstruction team by the time I went 2012 to Afghanistan it was like my third deployment or something like that I don't about fourth actually and uh I was I was like I was so excited bill because it was an interesting program like you know when you talk about Afghan local police you're basically talking about like a Grassroots anti-taliban militia with a veneer of State you know sanction that can really maybe get to the heart of the matter and I I thought that there was a lot of interesting parts to it and I was really interested in it I saw it implemented up in kundu's Bill and there it was it looked great it was like they had all the uniforms you could see that they were taking it seriously like they had State support and then when I was in gorak the Alp was just all those guys in that other Village over there let's just get them in here we're gonna give them some money and then like they did some training and like they're like you are now Alp and I was like well I don't think it's gonna work I remember having I would remember having a lunch uhh sorry to take talks a bill Beth with h uh then Colonel bulak uh who was ahead of then became General and then ran for Senate man he was all in on it and uh I just I told him that uh you know hey I there's a big difference between what I see up north and down south there's a disparity and the quality of this and it's not being evenly implemented across and uh I just I hope that we had this is what I used to tell Village Elders bill you know I I made the case for them to join s was this that was basically my job I was I could I would go into talk to the tribal elders and try to like talk to them about why they should join us um and you know what they didn't a lot of them didn't because they were like you're G to leave and it's just going to be me sitting here and they're gonna kill my sons and daughters when you leave like you always do I mean and and let me tell you something bill that cuts to the heart of you you're just like and you know what they were right yeah yeah and you believed it though you know but everything you said Bill about timelines you know anytime a timeline would come up I'd be like what the hell why are you doing that you're telling them when we're you know don't do that don't tell them when we're going to be done with this and when we're going to quit because the Taliban are just waiting they're waiting for that they're and they'll wait us out every time and like you said will there was such an uneven distribution of resources across the country everything was its own special thing owned by a different country element and like it just you're right I say I had optimism but I think from the start I was like you know there are a lot of ways to improve this very haphazard assembly of parts and and Beth you mentioned the um you know different countries have ownership even within the US military there were issues I remember the Marines refusing to and I don't blame them by the way giving elements of their um their their um forces over to Army because they were in combat operations in helmond and they're like we need these assets like there were there were disputes between within the US Marine Corps and the US Army on how things should be done and how assets should be distributed so you know we could sit here and yes look the the NATO the isaf um which by the way the International Security assistance Force I always love the I saw Americans fighting or I suck at fighting was another one that I've heard right I mean I love my European allies it's just a joke um that's you know we could blame you know the and for that what what they had that book of what did they call them the restrictions on or whatever they what it was the Roe Roes yeah rules yeah I remember they I forget what they call we talking about the crystals Like rules of like trying not for it to be you would get Metals for not escalating to a certain level oh my gosh yeah yeah yeah during like during the hide of like the population Central counter Insurgency with mistal he was trying to figure out ways to incentivize people to not be so deadly and like to be more precise with like bombs and and precision things so you could kind of like okay but like to the guy on the ground you know I remember sitting in a village bill with you know just a a a grunt and I love grunts because they protect fat guys like me they you know they would be like sir I I'm not casew worker you know I just like to pull the trigger and it go bang bang like I don't know anything about this fancy crap that y'all talking about I'm like population Centric counter Insurgency where the rubber meets the road I mean it's just I signed up to pull the trigger I I I heard that from Marines who I I love training them at 29 Palms they're like I'm so tired of passing out soccer balls I'm ready just to pull the trigger sir I'm like got it and and I totally get it and it was just you know we talk about Afghanistan 9911 you know somebody did prts Bill um I'm always I did prts I did Village stability operations I advised the Afghans I was in the Tates we we didn't have enough control of violence and uh we tried to do reconstruction projects before we did uh controlling violence and having security and uh that was a huge mistake and it cost us credibility with the Afghans but even after all the mistakes that we made bill you know even after everything we did there was still a lot of Afghans who believed in US yeah they believed in us and whatever people want to say about the war this is and I'm sure you probably all agreed broadly you can you know think whatever you want about this or that or how the American Military really screwed up and the state department did and you know the Biden Administration did but there were millions of Afghans who believed in us I know because they're friends of mine and they went all in on us because they said America won't abandon us I believe the will sers and all his friends in the world whose their job is to sell America to the Afghans that was basically what I did and like so many of them believed in US bill so many and you know I Beth and will you talk to far more Afghans than I do they still believe in us just that's what's amazing they still believe and I don't know what to think of that how about you Beth it breaks my heart and it is kind of amazing I think I've only had two Afghans of the hundreds that I've spoken with since the withdrawal who have said you know screw screw the US for doing this to us and for leaving me behind and not processing my special immigrant visa for the rest it's like can you just help me get my case along my case is stuck can you do this can you help and I I don't think I could keep up that level of Hope for so long um yeah it's really incredible they are extremely resilient people um I I I must say it it surprised me Beth I just wanted to comment real quick um I came across njic uh intelligence or that's the National Ground Intelligence yes um when I was working on a case we were uh um this was uh in 2020 2021 and where the family members of soldiers or servicemen who were killed in Afghanistan they sued Iran for supporting the Taliban and uh alqaeda and we won we won that case um and yeah we came across a lot of good inic intelligence that helped prove our case um I always go back to the one that always just sticks with me is Ki bariel who is a mid-level Taliban leader he's now like a governor um he worked with the uh irgc was taking money in the heart of Cobble he was part of the Cobble attack Network the group that was attacking us and Western forces and the Afghan security forces in and around Kabul um I just thought I just wanted to mention that work that you guys did at enj was enj is is the best so as a old Intel uh officer now grumpy combat veteran um I would say that like inj was my favorite them and the Marine Corps intelligence agency mcia I thought that they produced products that were great for tactical level intellig tactical level intelligence unit supporting those maneuver elements on the ground it was short concise I could understand it provide me with theistic to tell my operators who these guys were and answer the why why are we fighting these because these guys are linked to this guy and these guys are linked to this guy because when you're a tactical intelligence officer right supporting maneuver units you don't have the time to think big and like you're trying to put out fires IED will probably be here on the left-and side between this time and this time we've had this type of stuff going on so you don't have the luxury to just delve into like and give you the big picture and I loved loved did Jak I would tell every one of my young analysts or any type of young intelligence officer you should read them and I I still would even to the when I left they were on my little let my little favorites bar on my little top secret computer inj boom I want to I want to read what they have to say because it's always good yeah we took a lot of crap from other intelligence agencies for what we were saying about ton capabilities but my fellow analysts work so hard and you're right I think they were very good here's the big picture and scaling it down because I mean it's not easy all the time to write something at a tssci level and then have it there's an art to getting it downgraded enough that you can send it to somebody in the field and get it you know SNF or what have you um so I think that was an important aspect of it too you know you need if you can't describe it shortly then you really don't know it you know you might have this great big analyst notebook and this great big set of ideas is but if you can't succinctly tell it to somebody else you don't and it's funny you mentioned K barel bill I I all those names you know they're like in this distant recess of my mind because I don't see them every day and so the other day I was having a discussion with somebody about um maybe it was about berer I can't remember but I ended up I I was like no no no I'm pretty sure this was the role that person had at this very brief moment and I found this great 50-page readout of like all of the tbsl and I printed it out and now I'm just going to make my own analyst notebook at home so that it's like this unclassified version of all these guys and I because I you know they all as soon as you start getting back into it you're like oh yeah oh oh yeah I remember him and him and him it's always a him because it's the Taliban at least I know that right they're all dudes it's a sausage fest but um yeah it really is they have only women worthy of the to the Taliban is when I just I just want you I want everybody they're throwing a suicide bomb under their script if you don't mind Bill I just want to kind of underscore a little bit about what Beth said um before you ask before we hand it back over to you I just would you know the reason why Beth's writing is so good in my opinion is because she she is she has so much experience tracking these people so she has the ability to write you know from you know the Taliban leaders and what they're doing perspective like following them which I have a hard time doing because even my head they all start to run together and I can't keep track of them all anymore but but Beth when she writes for the Washington examiner or when she W writes for the Fox News or when she writes for you know her new substack Beth substack she should it's always good and I always read it because she is able to tell me some of the other things that are going on in Afghanistan other than like this is what Sarah Jad huni is doing right now now because who wants to read about that guy that guy sucks and so like let's read about something else that's depressing so I I usually read about I usually read Beth right I'm like all right let's get some more in here I see everything's going well but I I just appreciate it Beth all the work that you do the writing that you do keeping the torch going because let's be honest it's the what the 23rd or 24th anniversary public math uh 911 and uh you know there's not a lot of us that are keeping this torch lit it's just a few that keep on trying to find it is hard it was my pitch when I started my substack I made a little video and put it on Instagram I was like guys if you're sick of being depressed by the election cycle come be depressed by Afghanistan on my substack like come on it's a great place to be yeah so somewhere out there there's a starus listening saying these people really need help help I can't provide I'll give you a discounted ring could just come see me it's true though you get into you know and it's look I I I take a bit um I look at Afghanistan obviously it's a big focus of my work but I looking at the entire world and I'm looking at what's going on in the war in Israel and Iran and war in Ukraine it's yet my heart always goes back to Afghanistan because of it's just it just to me seems to be it explains everything about our failures everywhere I just a fear we're not learning the lessons of it and we don't want to learn the lessons of it because it'd be too bar embarrassing politically for both sides yes and that's that's just a real problem so Beth uh and and I'm gonna ask you the same question will where were you on 9911 um how old were you if you don't mind answering that question and you know how did 911 uh so I do not at all mind answering that question I had just turned 14 and I was in Middle School and I remember being in um Civ civics class and this the cutup of the class came in late and said hey somebody just flew a plane into a building and my teacher was like that's nonsense sit down like stop distracting everyone right and we all sat and continued and then I had a study block and I remember watching at the TV in the corner of the room everything happening and just being terrified I I was in school in norfol Virginia so Naval Base right nearby um my dad worked around that area and I was terrified about what was going to happen and who was going to get targeted next and I will always remember coming home that day my dad always worked till 5 or 6 p.m and my dad is a wheelchair bound veteran and his van the whole you know you always remember the blue sky right it was so beautiful it was just the most beautiful day I get off the bus I'm the only person at my St stop I'm walking down my dead Street there's no motion it's usually there are kids playing and there's my dad's van in the driveway and I was like holy that never happens and I walked in he didn't even say a word to me he was just sitting his wheelchair was sitting in front of the TV I will always remember just the Moes of you know substance in the air coming down through the sun in the sun there was a big um window in the ceiling you know a sun window whatever the hell you call those things and just he was so still and I was watching him watch everything and the thing that always hits me is by this point in the afternoon we all knew the sequence but nothing on TV was happening in the sequence of events right you would watch the planes hit the towers after you watched the towers collapse and you would it was just so disconcerting and at one point he looked at me and he said your world will never be the same and that was the only thing he said to me that afternoon and he was so right he was so right and he didn't know how I was going to you know what my life was going to look like that I was going to become this passionate advocate for bringing security to Afghanistan to then bring security to the world and I didn't know that at the time I was 14 years old but it was definitely um my whole life did change everything became scary and different and now we're launched into this war on multiple fronts and yeah it was that day I still I read to my kids about it every year I have at least a dozen 911 books because I want them to understand and they'll never experience it I hope the way that I did but I'm beginning to lose hope in that too so anyway that's that's my 911 story how about you great story no it was great I mean it's it's fascinating your father couldn't have been more right I'm wonder what he thinks today about you know saying that oh he has a lot of he has a lot of thoughts about that yeah bet well it I mean it changed us all though all three of us here certainly I would guarantee for our audience as well um everyone has a story from that day go ahead will tell us your story yeah man I mean I wish it was like this uplifting story but like I woke up I I graduated from college in 2000 uh in history and philosophy and like any good history and philosophy major double major I had no job on the outside shocking it's so shocking how I just nobody wanted to hire me who would have thought and so this is a this is a true story bill and I can hear my wife saying don't tell them the real story but I'm gonna do it anyways I was a DJ yes with turntables after college will yes called me origin Israel this is a true story somebody can I just Lord help me God somewhere there's a picture of me with turn table onone and hat you know and I'm like tell me you have the hat back or I was so Bill I was really cool I I just want you to know I was the coolest man on the planet at least I thought so very cool I made no money and I was a DJ and I lived in like an apartment with a bunch of people uh and then 911 happened and I woke up and I was I'll be very honest I was hung over and I had been up partying all night and I looked and I said this is is it I'm done and uh the next day I told I called my father and I said I'm going to join the military and he's his father was a veteran and he said you cannot enlist and I do not want you to be I was like I'm gonna go down to the Marine Corps enlistment Center and I did and they pitched me real hard but uh my father was in the Air Force and he he made me promised that I wouldn't do that so I didn't and then I went to the Air Force and uh I just had a non-traditional career as an intelligence officer not to bore everybody to death but like I spent like six you know six deployments four and a half years in Iraq and Afghanistan more or less dear God please don't know everybody go back and start counting numbers okay I just broadly speaking dear God have mercy uh just four and a half years and like it changed my whole life it it made me who I am to gay in the good and the bad um the man that I used to be before I went to Baghdad in 2006 he's gone he's gone and what you see in war changes you I don't care if it's like pulling the trigger which I did a few times or if it's all the way you know if it's in the in back home providing operational and intelligence support to people in the field because one thing that I learned bill um and it took me until the later part of my career when I was in the intelligence Community as a commander is that you don't have to be you know you hadn't you don't have to kill Bin Laden to have had an effect on the war on terrorism on you there is a generation a generation of Beth Bailey's out there in the world right who just are just crushing it inside the intelligence Community trying to do the right thing but unfortunately what I witness over 20 years of the intelligence Community is the politization of intelligence repeatedly throughout my 20 years if it was calling you know the sycom JV team whole Fiasco where reporting on the Islamic State was you know kind of pushed to the side or any other the reporting over the last few years where Resolute support really made it hard for people and this we're talking about me really made it hard for people to speak truthfully and honestly about what was going on in Afghanistan and you know it it's it's a shame Bill uh there was so many good Americans like friends of mine like Captain Jesse Milton who who was killed who actually Cory baral led the IAD Network that killed my friend Jesse Milton III you on uh September 9th of 2008 uh I think about him on days like this uh Bill and Beth I think about him I I am uh I just started being in contact with his mother uh I have her phone number and I'll be honest with you I'm scared to death to make that text but I'm going to because she deserves it but I'll be honest with you Bill I don't know what to say other than I'm sorry and I loved your son and that's all you can do now because they have taken in my opinion this is just me my opinion it's very dishonorable uh the way that the United States government has conducted especially the last few years of the War uh and those scars those moral injuries have scarred a generation of American can combat veterans deeply specifically those who served as advisers will has a great piece on Jessie Milton um his friend who was killed by the Taliban on September 9th what year was that 20088 yeah yeah and uh on his substack at grumpy combat veterans and friends so give that a read and yeah you know that's the war changed so many people's lives like I I wonder where would I be today if 9/11 didn't happen I mean I worked in computers you I was a computer analyst and I remember when it happened I picked my son up from um the the his babysitter he's one years old my son loved looking at the sky and looking at planes there's no planes in the air um I knew that attack was Al-Qaeda right away it changed my life it got me into studying this um in in depth it wasn't a plan of mine so yeah it's it's it's crazy how this you know it impacted me not in ways as you know the Milton family or others have been but it's it's changed all of our Lives um in in ways we just can't even explain um will you had mentioned the um intelligence failures recently we had the uh Deputy de director of the CIA telling us that the Taliban are basically our counterterrorism partners I'm going to start with you Beth how does something like this happened we all those of us who study Afghanistan know that the Taliban is not fighting Al-Qaeda and yet you have the deputy director of the CIA publicly stating that the Taliban is our effective counterterrorism partner and is actually taking the fight to Al-Qaeda how do how does this happen with Community I think it was I still don't know people in the community who aren't that worried about the tele on which to me is like what I'm sorry there's so much cognitive dissonance here I don't understand what's going on um I don't know I I don't understand it it doesn't make sense to me but I've seen the the bricks that got us there because that's what left me irate in 2013 when we said hey here Taliban have a negotiating office in Cutter and they threw up their flag as if they were a government in Exile rather than a terrorist entity that has no right in doing that um while there is a government that we've funnel time and money into building up I think it was a slow progression and I think that we have to think of them as our Ally because we left them the country effectively um when we left the Afghan government out of negotiations and said we're going to negotiate with you Taliban and then you can talk to the Afghan government and we'll let you do it was just this massive Act of self-deception in my mind that led us to this moment do you think politics are involved in this as well I mean the withdrawal from Afghanistan you know has to be in order you know he's a he's a political appointee does you know in order with no with with no experience in Afghanistan really I mean like tangential you know at the treasury level if I remember correctly bill I might be you know and that's an interesting people that I know who know him were surprised by that really okay because he hadn't been a pol you know operated in this manner in the past that's what was striking about this to to some so I just if I may with the thing that Beth uh that for me what upsets me about this there's a lot I mean I knew look I know that this isn't newsbreaking that he said it right but for me it caught my attention and the reason why it really upset me is that they know that they can just say this out loud now and that nobody's going to Care uh and that's what part that really kind of hurts that you can like say this type of stuff on the you know the on August 28th I think late August while every American Afghan combat veteran is grieving uh the last 20 years of the war our hard the the CIA leadership decided this was the opportune time to reiterate yet again that they think that Taliban is a good counterterrorism partner and do I mean okay just if you're gonna say that I don't agree with it I think it's wrong blah blah blah and you know Bill and I and be can talk about that all day but at least have the the courage at least have the moral fortitude to say and we understand that this is a horrible thing to say to our American combat veterans because we are now partnering with the people who killed their friends and are murdering and raping their friends mothers sisters children those are my friends that they're doing that too Bill those are my friends that they're doing that too and it's very personal for those of us who were taught to stand shaah Bona with our Afghan allies whatever their problems whatever their issues no space between us and I will only Advance as as far as you're willing to go and then I will step back when you're not it's a betrayal of such magnitude and I say it often bill is that that it that it covers the sun I would love to say that you know for me I think about these senior leaders of the Taliban and their discussions about how much calcium or you know how much ammonium nitrate to give to each little provincial Commander and you know that was a plan to go kill Americans that and kill Afghans and you know just indiscriminately kill people we're not talking about here are your weapons to use in a direct combat situation with other people on the ground it's here's how to go do Terror attacks here's how to convince people to go kill themselves in the name of Allah and and then they were providing security at age Kaa and now we are working with them as a counterterror Ally as they let Al-Qaeda have training camps throughout the country um it's just such a like I say self-deception like do you did you were you not there were you not watching what they did yes and since when you know we we went from calling them terrorists to you know the deao government and I to me they're still terrorists they're just they lie about it oh no we we would never rape women we don't do that we we protect ouren and you know it's it's nonsense let's get into that last subject Beth uh you've covered this extensively what has the Taliban what has happened recently with the Taliban with respect to women and rights in Afghanistan you know I remember I'm you know after 911 I remember President Bush standing up and you know in in on national television and and everybody send a dollar in you know for the Afghan people and boy we just seem to be so far from that now we're just talking about the Taliban back in control and dictating um to the to Afghan women and Afghan children tell us what the Taliban has um has done what decrees they've issued yeah so the newest decrees from August 22nd and they're really codifying all the things that they've been trying to do this entire time and I'm sure you guys remember in the beginning when they said that they were going to respect the rights of Afghan women in so far as the laws of Islam allow or whatever their specific wording was which to anyone who understood the Taliban they knew what that meant they knew what Islamic law meant and I remember to Bill I had heather bar on the show from Human Rights Watch a while back and she talked about 911 and how that was when everybody decided oh we need to go help the Afghan women who had been oppressed for five years you know and it was like oh well now we're going to help that's so so that's where we are now we the Afghan women are living under oppression these new laws they before the hijab law was kind of not entirely codified from my understanding but now it's you will cover your face in public you will not wear anything sheer or tight that could expose anything even men can't wear um like exercising shorts in public anymore or anything that tight or I know right you can't how am I gonna how am I supposed to get my CrossFit on Beth you need to ful fully cloaked sir it's just going to help you sweat more guns but you know they can't look at men outside their own family now so their gaze is restricted they can't um they can't speak loudly in public and they can't speak loudly in their own homes and the reasoning is what I love here it's because their their voices are too intimate to be heard uh they you know they're and of course with the the dress it's all about avoiding Temptation and tempting others so really what it says is these men can't control themselves so women have to be controlled uh it's before you couldn't go 45 kilom without having um you had to have a male a maharam a male escort with you who is a member of your family but now you can't travel at all without a Maham which means all these women who are trying to leave the country trying to escape oppression they can't do it um and the thing that I love about this is that the Taliban are now using women's spies and some of them are women who were previously arrested the go like you know it's like okay well we arrested you but we'll let you go if you start spying on other women some of them have willingly said hey we'll we'll take the job because there aren't many jobs for women in Afghanistan and people don't like to starve but what I love is that these women are going on patrols with the Taliban do you know like a normal Afghan woman is not allowed to be in the presence of a non- maharam male in Afghanistan unless she's a Taliban spy trying to find other T so there's just so muchy there's and the MSN quoted this woman who is a Taliban spy and she basically said you know women need to be staying home they should be raising their children and serving their husbands and not worrying about anything else it's like well what are you doing are you you're not at home raising children not worrying about anything else you're worrying about what all these women are doing so it's hypocrisy it's terrible women are absolutely I asked for you know I wanted to cover a couple stories of women who are angry about this and I put the call out on social media and before I knew it I had you know a dozen women like I want to tell my story I want to tell you how it is because the Taliban are out there saying it's great it's great to be a woman in Afghanistan they're safe they're provided for whatever and what women are telling me is I want to kill myself I am not allowed to smile I am not allowed to leave my home I feel unsafe I don't know when they're going to come find me I can't work you know it's it's devastating for them yeah I just man it's what happened is Afghanistan the real victims and all of this we should always remember are the Afghans right um they I mean look my brothers and sisters friends of ours were killed and maimed and wounded and I grieve for them every day and not to take away any of their sacrifice but the people who have suffered more than anybody else are the Afghans um and you know and on my on our website we have a a really difficult article by an anonymous writer uh he wrote it called America's 911 Legacy and I just can't emphasize enough it's a very difficult read uh with this uh uh army colonel who recounts that his um his sister was sexually assaulted um and kind of takes it The Reader through what that is is like for a man who is no longer able to Pro protect his family that is part of America's 911 Legacy and I hate saying that bill you know it doesn't give me joy to believe me reading those stories and sitting there with these people and and understanding that that trauma that they have is is just entirely painful and it's just heartbreaking and it makes you full of Shame as an American combat veteran I feel feel shame for what the government has done to my allies and that's not fair I shouldn't have to feel shame for my government for what they did but I'll be honest with you Bill I can barely I spend most of my time when I and I have a lot of Afghan friends uh the only people that can usually stand me uh and you know when I go in there and sit down with them like I always tell them I'm so sorry for what we did to you I'm so sorry because you didn't deserve that I always kind when when you say that I I I did I a I mean I I because I I mean I said like I'm not one to apologize for my government it wasn't my decision but I'm going to do so anyway and I just sort of got the you don't have to do that it's it's okay we know it's not you but still yeah I it's we are responsible right I mean we all are As Americans are responsible even though it wasn't our decision it's still bear the shame C can I make this a little bit political for you guys just a little tinge bit is that okay that's okay with me okay I I just what we saw last night on the on the debates and c I don't want to get into anything other than like the little section of when both candidates decided to talk about Afghanistan I just wanted to fall off my my chair and start crying like just as a collective like this is the emblematic of the entire lost 20year War where like you know you had one candidate basically saying like standing by the decision to withdraw uh har is standing by Biden's decision to withdraw um from Afghanistan despite what um Afghan women are going through right now I mean for me it's always the same option like if you're gonna say like would you rather us be there and like muddling along trying to figure it out or would you rather have this other thing like where the Taliban are now know gang raping women and all that type of stuff I feel like the the option is clear but that's just me but then you go on and like what president Trump doesn't get the leader of the Taliban the name correctly and you're just like his name is not Abdul maybe I heard that somebody said that he was talking about uh mulab balar and I think that's who it was but it was just and nobody talked about the Afghan people nobody talked about the fact that they were left behind nobody talked about the fact that our combat interpreters are left behind and that I have friends who every day they have to survive in a ghoulish landscape that that this country could never POS possibly fathom they're just incapable of doing it I feel like a bobblehead right now just shaking my head and and nodding to everything you say but will I wanted to say something about your piece the the one you referenced with the gang rape of the woman because I think there's something that you didn't mention really important from that piece is the fact that after that attack the woman's family left her her husband left her because raped women have no value uh she doesn't get to be with her kids anymore um just the social implications of that and it's not a one off like that that is a horrifying I'm so glad you posted it it's horrifying but this is something that's happening my friend Leslie maryman has a whole nonprofit that she's started to help Taliban rape victims and they're not all adults we're talking children and it's just despicable and disgusting and you're right we don't talk about it we just L it's sickening to me I've never hated politics in my life until after the withdrawal now I'm just like screw you all no affinity for any of you because you can't take any any blame and you can't stand up I had hoped somehow because you know I yes I'm a pessimist but I have this little Optimist streak that comes out write it as I'm about to just go it all sorry about that but um oh no apologies so I just had to it just has been building inside of me so anyway I had this little streak of optim thought of optimism that okay Biden isn't going to run for re-election maybe maybe now he can say I messed it all up I shouldn't have done that and here's why and now let's try to move forward for all the sake of all the veterans who put every time I talk to you will about this I just want to give you a hug because you shouldn't feel all of that shame for yourself you don't deserve to feel any of it um no veterans do and it there's just so many reverberating waves of of that have come out of this decision and it does go back to Trump too and it does go back to Obama too and it does go back to Bush too but couldn't Biden say now I messed up and I apologize and this is on my shoulders but nobody will do that nobody's going to do that no no we we've talked about this numerous times accountability I don't even think that word is in a dictionary in Washington um we shouldn't expect it it's you know those of us who haven't aren't responsible for the decision apologize it those who are responsible for it pretend it didn't happen and um are unwilling to take responsibility that's just the way it is that's just the Washington twep I guess um they're they're just they can't be wrong they can't take responsibility and it's the thing is is you know and this is what bothers me too the Press I remember um as the withdrawal was going on and because of the number of reporters Beth you could probably speak to this better than any of us you know reporters and producers um and others have you know involved in news a lot of them spent time in Afghanistan when way or another they've made friends they've had guest houses they stayed at it long periods of time and I heard tons of times you know pre-interview or post inter how they can't get away with this how could this happen and I would my response always was they'll get away with it if you let them get away with it they'll get away with it if you stop talking about it if you don't hold them accountable for this and it kind of got this sort of blank response usually or no that's not going to happen but it did happen within 3 months of the withdrawal actually by February after the Russia uh invasion Ukraine the any calls any real criticism of a the withdrawal from Afghanistan it ended and um you know so it's not just our political leaders are our I think our the Press you know they're willing to give the administration a pass on this um yeah I agree Trump deserves blame Obama deserves blame Bush they I I everyone who's listens knows that I believe that um and that they all but the ultimate decision ision to withdraw in the way that it was done that needs that is the one that is the worst decision of all of these decisions that were made up until that point I think that and here's the thing like for all the listeners you're like this guy's more to blame this person there was this point in 2017 on the third day of like August where the real decision was made whatever but you can't tell me that who's not responsible right now right because right now now there's only one president and he has been in office for almost four years so this is his policy nobody forced him to rec to put us on the pathway to recognizing the Taliban because I think that's where we're going bill and I wouldn't be surprised if he does it right before he leaves office and takes the takes and then he will think that he is cementing his legacy by ending forever Wars because he's been trying the Biden Administration has been there's been a lot of press Bill I'm sure you've been watching it about possibly making hints at leaving Iraq they need to get out even though there's a surge and attacks right um they're not back they never went away um and so like time is a flat circle we are incapable of learning our lessons and I'm a broken record because of the all volunteer Force because only a small percentage of the population shoulders Decades of war and when that happens in a small percentage of the population serves provides intelligence support like Beth did or does any of this type of stuff then it's then it can just Reed at the background noise of American life it's sad it is it really truly is any thoughts P go I had so many and they're all competing in my head um I I just somebody needs to take accountability and we need to I just saw I'm sure you guys saw it too in Britain they're closing the Afghan Embassy because the Taliban asked yes the Taliban got rid of all the employees they said oh you're not employed anymore and it just made me think about I've um talked to The Honorable Mania bakari who is the only acting female Ambassador I believe in Exile right now in Austria she's still holding down her job and it's like what happens if all of these countries start falling and then I looked it up you know we closed the Afghan Embassy here in 2022 so we did that before Europe started but the thing that's different in my mind is that in Europe you have do you guys remember last year when uh some Talib I think he had travel restrictions on him but he went to Germany he somehow made his way to Germany probably under his n deer or something like that and he was you know at a mosque trying to build up report and how many Afghan refugees went to Germany right and now what they're going to have Talib cell Taliban cells in Germany that are going to like it's just we have not thought at all about the effects of this and now we've got you know oh well how many hundreds of thousands of Afghans are in processing for visas or Refugee admissions programs for here at the same time that I'm just watching all of the Americans getting angry about foreign coming in and so what are we setting Afghans off into in this country right now is it even better than what they're leaving and just the world to me is in a massive state of turmoil right now so I'm leaving it to you guys to make me feel some hope because right now I'm well you turned to Bill rajio and that's what he he when you think about Hope and optimism I want you in your head to go Bill Ria Bill Bill provide us some H let's give us some and Bill that's the toughest question you just asked Beth of of your investigative career Bill rajio provide us with a little bit of Hope on I can't I I go back to the scene in in Aliens you know I think we should take off and nuke it for morbit where my mind goes to there's some hope in that right no well I go to Captain selber for hope that's where where I go yeah I I would just say Here's My Hope um I have hope in the next generation of Amer of Afghan Americans I have faith in the generation of of Afghans who was raised and trained by the West um who came up through the Western uh system um men like uh Lieutenant General hea alazai Lieutenant General Sam Sadat um very close friends of mine like Colonel Abdul Rahman rakman uh these are very close friends of mine who studied at the at the most prestigious American and European military acmis uh graduated from undergraduate pilot training went to Army Rangers School graduated from West Point went to the best schools Oxford places that wouldn't they sure as hell wouldn't let me into um these are the the the the best train and I I believe in them because I know how hard of workers they are to know an Afghan Refugee by and large always going to find bad ones look find bad people everywhere by and large good people and they're trying to make it and these Afghan security Force officers that are here that are striving and succeeding in America even though they washed upon Shore they are hope and they are the inspiration that at some point in time God willing the taliban's horrible reign will come to an end and you know however long it takes um it's a fight worth having and it's a good fight and it's you know it's never too late to do the right thing that's what that's what I tell myself that's what I tell everybody when we fight about these things 911 the war Afghanistan who's to blame all this other stuff I always say it really like we should learn from it but why don't we start acting differently right now because the best time to change what you're doing is right now and you still can you can do that that is an option on the table to change is it going to is it going to happen here soon probably not but you know you never know I don't know that's what I got for you Bill how was that was that you know what was that a pony I gave you the pony can I can I deflate that hope though for a here the problem that's a great idea and I love that and I think that that is the future but you know that all of those terrorists that the Taliban are growing up in Afghanistan now are going to look at anybody who was educated in the west and then moved to the West and has the S of the West upon them is going to be Persona NADA or they're going to lump them like Sami Sadat I have heard great things and then there are people who say terrible things right just like FIA kufi great things Terrible Things anybody who Rises to the level of prominence in Afghanistan is going to have some kind of baggage even if it's perceived that is going to create this it's just there everybody's coming after each other and now you've got people who are in the diaspora and it's going to be well you weren't here you're not really Afghan I've seen it with the previous generations who tried to come and you know they're like oh well I was I'm Afghan I just was raised in the US and then you know Afghans said you're not real like get out of here with your bad self like I don't want you here so it's just we're creating more and more layers of future conflict I just see this ending up in future conflict honestly oh of course let's hope so yeah I sorry I mean let's hope so I hope I hope I hope that the Taliban is overthrown and I hope that our friends are able to succeed and uh you know I would just the only thing I would say is that the what Thomas Jefferson is not gonna come over the Hindu Kush and he's not going to like fight like we fight and talk like we talk and execute Warfare like we do and you know what thank God because the way that we did we did it and we advised Afghans led to they're losing a war so what I would tell our Afghan friends and I tell this to everybody take our money take our resources say thank you so much that's very interesting and you go about fighting your War the way that you think is the best way that's going to put you and your people in the most advantageous way to destroy your enemy that's just me that's my hope there you go yeah thank you you're welcome a little pony easily that will require fight in it is unfortunate but that is what's required and um look we didn't become the United States by asking the British nicely um we just didn't um we took what we we uh we fought for what we have and the Afghans are going to have to fight for that and well you are right to remember that and I have to remind myself that whenever that you know just to see the optimism in the room of people who've lost everything I you know didn't physically lose anything during the US withdrawal from Afghanistan and it nearly broke me and these are and when I see the you know Afghans who who have their family is still behind who can't return to their country who still have hope I I have to take that I have to that is something I need to hold on to um it's sad though that we're here today on 9/11 and we're not looking internally like where is the Hope internally I I look at it with my friends I look at Beth I look at will I look at all the friends that I've made in this and I I remember the hard work that everyone does um and that there's people that still care and and I have to remind myself that despite our poor political leadership that um you know one of the worst things during the withdrawal was at the end of the withdrawal right it was also one of the most hopeful things right the how we how Afghanistan collapsed but how people band it together Americans put everything cast caution to the wind people serving and intelligence and in the military when active duty who just said you know what I don't care if I get prosecuted I'm going to help Americans I'm going to help Afghans I'm going to help those in need and and I I that was such a a crazy emotions for a wave of emotions feeling um just so uh ashamed of my country but of but proud of my countrymen at the same time so yeah there's hope out there to be had I'm not the uh Eternal pessimist I'm just most a pesimist so well Beth thank you so much for joining us today I really appreciate you taking the time on 911 to uh taking time out of your day to just join we have to get you back on and uh hear what you're working on and um you know just catch up just great to see you everybody go read go read Beth Bailey right now she's one of the best voices out there on Afghanistan she's hardworking Fox News Washington xammer her own substack where else are you riding for sometimes Ah that's pretty much it these days she's always riding she's always got a something out and I always read it and so should you thanks for coming on Beth you guys are way too kind I'm gonna like play this over and over as my Mantra like when I'm trying to get myself stoked for something I this was honestly I wouldn't have spent today any other way thank you for having me it was a really meaningful way to think about this anniversary yeah Beth the pleasure is as always is ours you take care best wishes to you and yours thanks everyone for listening to today's episode of generation Jihad just a reminder you can listen to us on YouTube Apple Spotify and anywhere else you listen to podcast please subscribe to generation Jihad and leave us a review preferably a positive one but only if we earned it thanks again and we'll see you all again real soon oh [Music]