Ep. 168: Hadden Clark

ready you can do whenever you want because remember I can piece together all right hey everyone it's Hannah I wanted to quickly ask if you are enjoying the podcast please leave us a fivar review it goes a long way in getting the show in front of other listeners if you listen on a platform that doesn't do reviews please follow us on social media like the show or leave a comment thank you we love you guys and we I hope you enjoy the [Music] show you're listening to the tales we tell a podcast about spooky stories Unsolved Mysteries and local lore I'm your host Hannah parch and I'm [Music] Katie welcome back it's good to not be in my house right now I I kid you not I left Monday uhhuh uh yeah took him to the doctor and then we went home yeah and Wednesday he went to school mhm and I went to knitting club and that was it you've been at and I have been in my house 247 for the rest of it so I have spent a grand total of three hours outside of my home yikes since in the in the past week because yeah last Sunday I actually got to do stuff not much but yeah some stuff and uh yeah no starting Monday to today is Sunday so in the past seven days I have spent three hours outside of my home and it's been like raining every day this week yeah so I mean literally outside of my home because it's been too gross to even do the like the water table outside and that's something that I can't set it up on my own while watching walkers yeah well I'm going to I'm going to start with my one happy shout out and then everything else is downhill yeah I bring it on well my one happy shout out is to my friend Sher fun story is that I met her because I bought a pair of shoes from her on Market Place M and the brief little conversation we had I was like you seem cool cool and nice and I also obviously met her when I picked up the shoes and I was like you seem really cool I like your Vibes so with some encouragement from my friends at work back when I had girlfriends at work they were like you should add her on Facebook and try to be friends or I think I messaged her or something and was like would it be weird if I added you on anyways we're Facebook friends we went out to have food and then she immediately moved out of state rude I know rude anyways she sent me a very sweet message uh the other day that said she's been listening to the podcast and wanted to tell us that we were kicking butt and she's only on episode like 50 something she was like that's so kind of you to say about our early work like thank you so much well I told you that the uh the Pam episodes was my dad's favorite since the Ketty murders which was like our very first one I love that he likes the very first one we did and nothing in between until Pam so fast forward 3 years oh um my second announcement is less of an announcement but more of a it's a self-promotion announcement for us all right but it's also because I feel like I have to mention it and it's also one of the reasons why this week has been horrible for me okay the Titan submersible situation were you following that do we have to talk about it I'm just going to say this is all I'm going to say episode 63 yep the ocean wants to when I when I first heard about the submer I was like oh Hannah's I was right I was right I love this I was right I don't love that I was right I don't love it but I was right the ocean is an incredibly dangerous place and if you need more context on why go listen to to episode 63 also that's what I was I was following that since literally Tuesday I heard about it on Monday I started following it Tuesday Tuesday through Thursday morning or afternoon I literally the entire that entire time period all I could think about was that I thought they were all still alive and sitting on the bottom of the ocean in total darkness slowly dying and I was like that's the worst possible thing that I could ever imagine hell that's actual hell and then ever since they found the debris all I have been thinking about is what happens during catastrophic decompression or whatever they're calling it and unfortunately now Tik Tok is just like you want to know here's a million videos and I just want to say don't go in the ocean anyone I can't emphasize that enough just don't the ocean is not your friend the ocean's not your friend okay my next announcement is our episode rating which is another ma 17 so Dante and Tiny Tim and anyone else who's young and listening stop listening so check yourself before you wreck yourself are you old enough and then some and then some and then some and then some yep and then our content warnings r four um let's just say it's a whiskey episode for more than just our crappy weeks yeah it is it is graphic violence animal abuse that I will only very briefly mention we gloss over that's how we do also sexual abuse of a child that I will also gloss over cannibalism Etc do you need palette cleansers yeah if you got them I've got some video palette cleansers that you can enjoy I mean the sounds might be enjoy for everyone else sure yeah I'll take some are you going to give me one now or no I'm just getting themed up okay I kind of alluded to this last week because this week I'm going to tell you about Haden Clark who is the convicted serial killer who confessed to the murder of Our Lady of the dunes I also like calling her Our Lady of the dunes because it sounds like she's a saint does I like it and she should be definitely wasn't she wasn't but it sounds nice yeah just a quick uh little in well there's several things I want to say at the top but first of all the majority of my information I got from an extensive article that was written by a true crime author named Adrian hav or havl um and he interviewed Haden more than a dozen times in prison which is how he got his in information or like a lot of his information um he also wrote a book called Born evil a True Crime Story of cannibalism and sexual murder which I don't know about sexual murder but we'll get there and then also I think I mentioned this when we were talking about doesn't sexual murder just means he gets sexual gratification from murdering someone yeah but I didn't get that from this so I'll let you explain and then like so he's he is one I think I did mention this that he reminded me a lot of Robert Chase the vampire of Sacramento the guy who thought his blood was turning into powder so we are going to obviously be talking about mental health and how much it does or doesn't have to do with these murders I don't know I think this one's interesting because I Robert Chase I think was a lot more clear-cut for me where I was like he's got delusions he's hearing things or seeing things that are telling him that this is what he's supposed to do line between like knowing right from wrong and doing wrong and then not knowing right from wrong because you live your your mind is in some weird alternate reality and in your mind's world what you're doing isn't wrong yeah so this guy does he kind of like play jump rope with that line kind of his motivations are I think clear but his mental health plays a big part in what those motivations are are we'll get we'll get to okay yeah so anyways okay so Haden Irving Irving Clark and I did look it up you do say Haden it's h a DDE n not Hayden which is a real name Hadden okay he was born July 31st 1952 to parents Haden senior family name and Flavia well okay I know Flavia Flavia Flav and uh just a fun fact she wear a big clock around her neck too I hope so but fun fact about her uh that's not related to anything does Flavia not sound like it's a like a like a maybe a a a Latin name or a sounds like it makes me think of flal oh uh with like a fluvial system it's related to water flow it sounds I don't know it doesn't sound very Anglican to me um but they made a point in this article to say that she could trace her ancestors to the Mayflower so she's very white is all I can assume so Haden was the second of four children he had an older brother named Bradfield very white names we're going with uh Bradfield was born in 1950 and then there was Jeffrey born in 1955 and Allison born in 1959 yeah now these are great white people names yeah Jeffrey spelled with a G by the way Joffrey Joffrey whatever um the Clark family was pretty well off financially because Haden Senor had helped invent cling wrap cool or toaster strudel either one I just watch me they're very different they are very different but I just watched Mean Girls and I wanted to reference that do you not oh I got it the inventor of toaster Str got it I'm just saying if my dad had invented clean rack I clean rack cling rap mhm I would be saying I don't think my father the inventor of cing WP would be very happy to hear this I wouldn't really I never I hate people that do that okay so both Haden sior and Flavia were my Dad could have invented cling WP and I would probably never know it he wouldn't tell you um okay so Haden Senor and Flavia were both alcoholics so they're fun yeah we as we take giant swigs of our two shot me too tonight just kidding alcoholism is a disease wag in my mind it's a symptom of a disease but sure they're fine in the money department but they both have drinking problems they often fight in front of their kids so like it's not a stable home and there isn't any specific mention of mental illness within their family history from either parent aside from the alcoholism aside from that well I mean also are they actually alcoholics or do they are they just heavy drinkers that's true I don't know as a child Haden was described by some of his peers as evil just The Bad Seed yep not weird I mean he was described as weird too but like straight up evil there's a Instagram account that I follow called Mama cusses she's all about dentle parenting and it's and she's really funny and like just the whole like parenting is a nightmare Zone yeah and she makes it fun uh and she had a post about like with twins and there was a couple of points and she's like no there is no good twin and evil twin they're both evil full stop oh my gosh so okay he was evil he was evil so he was bullied because he was weird and because any kind of thing that deviates from quote unquote normal is targets for bullies but other children were scared of him for good reason is he one of those kids that would hiss at you probably GH he was known to kill and dismember the neighborhood pets yeah red flag red flag red flag and he would Target those specifically those who were owned by the kids that bullied him so like you bullied him and then your pet would go missing so Not only was it like basically he knew what he was doing was hurtful to others mhm yes whereas I think you know some like they don't understand that the the animals like have feelings or whatever and that we should be nice to animals and they're more some of them it's more of a curiosity about like well how does this thing work how does it work yeah yeah this just the Curiosity of like death in general yeah this was less aimed at I think hurting animals and more aimed at hurting the people that they were attached to yeah yeah that's yeah we're we're teaching Walker you know gentle pets because he's like dog like gentle gentle gentle Jory just had oh that was the other thing on Thursday Jory had surgery again again you just to have lumps and bumps removed so yeah I had a sick and teething toddler at home all day and a and it actually was on you know cuz he came home late Thursday so was on Friday Shelton was at work and I was at home with a dog and a cone and he's got lots of cuts and stitches he's got four Cuts all over his body and a wild toddler and I'm just like oh God gentle gentle gentle yeah but he's got it he's got it okay good good he he understands gently pet gentle yeah so not dismember not don't dismember yeah so part of this like him wanting to hurt the people that were attached to the pets I think part of this was related to the fact that he never learned really how to react to like criticism or slights or well when you're you know your examples for communication are alcoholics who yell and fight you know I imagine there's probably not any kind of like resolution like it's one thing to a fight in front of your kids but if you're going to do that like you need to see it through to the resolution and be like okay yes there was yelling and raised voices but we calm down we discussed it and we hugged and everything was fine after like see it through yes yes so Haden kind of landed on retaliating um that was that's the word that's his big but word for the episode retaliation I wonder if along with the screaming matches of his parents there might not have been some plates or things through yeah and I often wonder too if his parents were like also vindictive yeah yeah um so he would retaliate in physical ways um and they were often disproportionate to the quote unquote crime that had been done against him so for example killing someone's pet because they were mean to you and then one example not necessarily of this but just of his the way he was is one time he and Jeffrey so his younger brother were riding bikes and he deliberately rammed his bike into Jeff's and Jeffrey at this time was learning to ride with no hands and so obviously Jeffrey goes flying and he actually like hits his head when he falls off so he gets like some kind of gnarly head wound Haden goes back to tell his mom what happens and he says don't don't worry the bike's okay she's like there's an accident Jeffrey got hurt but don't worry Mom the bike's fine the bike's okay so just not everything is firing and connecting the way it's supposed to wonder if there was an unhealthy importance placed on the value of things in possibly well I mean it could have been like you know maybe the kids broke a vase or a lamp or something and parents got pissed but yelled at each other over it yeah and yelled at the parent or and at the kids so he was like don't freak out don't worry the bike is fine bike is fine that's true so I mean yeah it could be that he's like a sociopath or whatever it could also just be like that's what he learned to yeah like I don't want to set you off yeah cuz clearly we care about things Flavia for her part recognized that there was something wrong with haton and at first she thought that maybe he had suffered head trauma at Birth because of the use of forceps and then I guess later on she thought that he might have cerebal paly which I'm like those are very fair very different and like pretty clear one those you would know you would know you would know he didn't have any developmental delays at all and he never tested for any kind of intellectual deficiencies um he was actually pretty smart um like uh like he was really good at chess they said so like I'm sure he was on the Spectrum somewhere at some point in addition to maybe other things however one thing that might have contributed to some of Haden's future behaviors was the fact that Flavia used to dress him in girls clothes and call him Kristen because both she and Haden senior had wanted a girl after Bradfield was born they eventually had a girl did they not they did I think they wanted to do boy girl boy girl I don't know I don't know um but Haden would continue dressing in women's clothes well into adulthood um and I'll just go ahead and say now I have no idea if that wasn't anyway related to like a sexual identity or if it was just related to this so After High School Flavia enrolled Haden in The Culinary Institute of America to train as a chef did he want to be a chef sure I think she was thinking there maybe weren't other a lot of other options open to him okay cuz I don't I got the impression that maybe regular University wasn't an option for him is probably like one of those he was smart but didn't do well in school things yeah I know that life yeah what you're saying is you can relate to this man but I'm glad nobody intentionally enrolled me in culinary school like I love to cook but that's just more school that's taking a hobby that I enjoy and turning it into school something I don't enjoy Also I feel like could be like working in a restaurant kitchen for 4 years or however long culinary school takes which sounds awful to me he did fa well at school at this particular particular school and he excelled at carving ice sculptures which weirdly doesn't come back that's not like a that's not like a little thing I'm planting it was just a fun fact about him yeah we got to enjoy little bits while we can before we get to the you know gruesome guts of the story he continued demonstrating strange Behavior such as drinking blood from raw meats which did not make him any friends and he also continued his pattern of physical retaliation against what he saw as slights against him for example he one time I hope it was only one time urinated in a vat of mashed potatoes I am not sure how he didn't get kicked out at that point because you would get fired from Taco Bell if you did that not that they serve mashed potatoes at Taco Bell but I'm just saying you'd get fired from anywhere else why are you trying to poison Taco Bell in my mind just don't get the don't get the mashed potatoes when you go there they don't have they have fiesta potatoes which I realized were back and I got very excited about and I was contemplating getting maybe don't get those after this I'm going to try those nacho fries there you go haven't tried those yet um so he graduated in I've been wanting Taco Bell for a week Han I'm sorry all right he graduated yeah sorry he graduated in January of 1974 at first when he graduated he did not have any problems getting a job because he has this degree from this very prestigious culinary school so he begins working in Provincetown Mass Massachusetts in 1974 um and this is at what point in his life that he would later claim that he encountered and murdered Ruth Marie Terry and he said that he cut off her hands and used her fingers as experimental fish bait again I mean that's believable it is but I use chicken necks to catch crabs oh we use chicken uh legs cheap they're cheap at the pig igly that's where we'd get the next but as far as I can find a he didn't give any reason for killing her like he didn't say like I met this woman and she called me stupid and so I killed her yeah where it seems like most so far any crimes that he's done or any kind of retaliation has always been you know provoked and then I also as far as I could tell they could not confirm I think it I think it just happened to be a coincidence that this like unsolved mystery turned up in the same town where he happened to be working like and the timelines kind of matched up and so when he saw it in prison I think he jumped on it there was a short time though when I was researching this where I was like maybe he did and then I remembered her exh or her husband and I was like uh no I think that guy did it probably and the others yeah and the other ones that he also definitely killed okay so remember I said at first it was easy for him to get a job it was not easy after the J to keep the job because of his Strange Behaviors yeah so after Cape Cod he worked on a cruise ship called the SSS sorry called the SS Norway too many s he also worked on Long Island and then he worked in Lake Placid between 1974 and 1982 he had a total of 14 jobs and finally in 1982 he decided to join the Navy as a cook how old was he then 30 I was about to say he right around 30 I was going to say 20 and that's not right old for for the Navy I for any military branch yeah and I think I think he was doing it more as like I'm applying for a job less as I'm enrolling in the military right but predictably that didn't go well because now he is very often wearing women's underwear just as a regular thing and I have no problem with that I don't have a problem with it either I mean it's not generally very comfortable it's not I know and they they would mention especially if he wants the pretty stuff oh I know the pretty stuff's not comfortable so and they would like later on it's like oh he likes to wear women's underwear and women's bras and I'm like why on Earth would you why would you wear why would you put yourself through that if you don't need one why would you wear one like why would you why would you put your body through that bras are even like a bralet that's like got you know it's just more like a bikini top than anything even still just look not they're not comfortable it's making me un know I Chang I was wearing a real bra all day and then I changed right before he got here into something less supportive but in 1982 a bunch of Navy guys on a ship who were probably like I mean I'm not not to project but like a bunch of Navy guys on the ship like there's got to be a couple closeted gays in there you know obviously overcompensating and so they see a guy who's comfortable with himself wearing women's underwear and they beat the out of him anyways so he got beat up a lot while he was in the Navy and eventually he was beaten so badly that he suffered a concussion and at that point which was 1985 so he stayed there for 3 years he was given a medical discharge and he was also at that point diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia that was probably the real reason for the discharge yeah yeah so oh a concussion yep nope yep can't can't have you here anymore sorry oh I forgot I have a dossier for you your first picture is of Haden if you want to see what he looks like I'm afraid it's you know okay no he's not bad I was worried that he was going to be attractive oh no no no don't worry like I already know all this like horrible stuff cuz like sometimes you'll turn the tables on me and I'll be like oh he's cute and you'll be like oh he's a total sicko I'm like great yeah no no there's a lot of pictures of him that kind of match like you can kind of tell from pictures that things AR he's got some crazy eyes there and there he just looks like a goober yeah and there's a lot of pictures where he kind of looks like a goober but after you know what he's done you're like h H does he look like a goober or does he look uh you know in case jar cuts that out and you don't know what we're doing Katie asked him to get gummy worms gummy bears gummy bears at the store I meant it as a joke because I hope he leaves in the grocery list his first Interruption This is highly irregular behavior from the cheriff by the way it is he is not interrupted us for a long time no God was the last time that he interrupted us when Kelly had a snake oh God no I think the last time he did it was it was a prank there I mean no the snake was real the last time I remember was a what about when that guy was at our front door and he made me call the [Laughter] cops anyways he just came back and he bought gummy bacon which is pretty good yeah doesn't taste it's just it's like a thick strip of gummy yeah yeah so like it's just it's a unique gummy experience M it's not bacon flavored thank goodness yeah though I bet there is bacon flavored gummies and I'm going to find it and I'm going to I'm going to find it go ahead all right after he is discharged from the Navy he goes to live with his younger brother Jeff free in Silver Springs Maryland meanwhile member Bradfield his older brother unfortunately okay he's been up to some stuff while Haden has been at C mhm so Bradfield got involved in drugs as a teenager which who doesn't um me me I waited till I was in my 20s I did too I mean I've never tried the drugs dad I don't know why I'm still eating while I'm trying to talk actually no I think I was still technically 18 it's College I was like late 20s anyways no one ever offered it to me like they said they would I know clearly I wasn't very Co really hard to get and nobody wanted me to be cool either yeah that's true well no no no wait hold on hang on we were already So Co I was to say everyone was like no we can't improve upon that coolness with drugs so we'll just let them be I was going to say according to the ads we were the cool ones who weren't doing drugs our brains were not scrambled oh no I see I always thought was like oh you know try drugs it'll make you cool oh yeah you're right we were too cool and we were we were already cool we didn't need the drugs to make us cool because we were already so cool definitely was definitely what it was all right well Brad Bradfield wasn't uh that cool so he was doing the drugs but he went on to get two degrees uh two University degrees hey man and he went on to make a name for himself in the it field and he moved to California and then on July 20th 1984 Bradfield invited his co-worker Patricia Mack who's 29 and her husband over to his house for dinner Patricia's husband couldn't make it so she went by herself like as a friend and once there Bradfield began coming on to Patricia and making sexual advances at her which she firmly declined and in response to her rejection Bradfield grabbed her and quote slammed her head repeatedly into a concrete wall and then he strangled her until she was dead and then he cut off her breasts and barbecued them and ate them and then he cut up the rest of her body into 11 pieces and put them in trash bags and then he put the trash bags in his car he's not even the star of our episode I know I know I know yeah clearly the runs in the family I know remember I was like I could I couldn't tell if it was family related or um when I first read about him it was like a one sentence little blurb and I was like I'm sorry he did what and to who and when and so then I had to go find a whole article about it and unfortunately every article about him is like brother of or it's like Haden Clark's brother also was a cannibal in this way and here's a short be a much bigger deal I know so so at approximately 6:15 that's what you get for naming your kid Bradfield I know Bradfield what a terrible name at approximately 615 on July 23rd my birthday police received a 911 call from bradfield's apartment and when they arrived they found him with self-inflicted knife wounds from an apparent suicide attempt I don't know how this came up but apparently they I'm sure he just wasn't out of he couldn't make it to the grocery store and wanted a snap also going to say this again not to be gross but like of all the body parts you could eat off of someone this reminds me of the is is a is a aawa whatever that guy's name is do you not know what breasts are made of fat fat fat fat fat yeah like that's not going to be good it's fat and glands I mean it's probably going to be as gummy as these bacon gummies but not fruit flavored it's not going to be good like it's not going to be be good and it's I'm just okay so apparently while the police were there they were like hey do you know anything about this woman who went missing in this area and Bradfield was like yes she's in my car so which I mean thank goodness he the police are like a slam down I know they're like oh score which like I'm not sure how the husband wasn't like hey my wife went to this guy's apartment and then didn't come home and unless he just didn't know like exactly where she was going or who she was going to meet I don't know seems like very lucky break for the police yeah but they went and looked in his car and they did in fact find the bags with the remains of Patricia in the trunk of his car he had apparently intended to bury them but then felt guilty and tried to kill himself before calling the authorities how long was she missing before um 3 days okay she that must have been a smelly trunk I know in July in San Francisco or near San Francisco so he gave a full confession and was obviously convicted I don't know how you would get out of that he only got well I say only he's serving an 18 to life sentence at California State Prison Solano um I did look him up there he was eligible for parole in like 1994 I think he's been denied parole nine times but the last two times it says he voluntarily waved his rights so he's just given up I think that's yeah um but he is eligible again in in 2026 which I why is he eligible for parole he killed he ate he mhm anyways yeah we know what we did we know what he did we don't to rehash because he's not even the star of our episode that so that's just that's just Haden's brother oh good lord all right so Haden has gotten out of the Navy he's gone to live with Jeffrey by May of 1986 Jeffrey is like you cannot live here anymore hadn't strange Behavior had begun to affect jeffy's children and by that I mean Haden had been caught masturbating in front of the children and so was like you have to leave and Haden was not super happy about that on May 3st around 12:00 in the afternoon Haden had returned to the house while Jeffrey and the kids were out to collect the rest of his stuff so like I said he wasn't happy about being kicked out and also apparently on his mind that day was the fact that his six-year-old niece Eliza so jeffy's daughter M had called him quote a [ __ ] a week before obviously not language we promote but she's six and it's the90s 1986 oh never mind I was yeah I was thinking about when Bradfield was first still 8s not that it was okay then yeah not that it was okay then uh that's why I'm using it as a quote so while Haden is standing outside the house near his truck Eliza's friend Michelle door walks up Michelle is also six again and I don't know indirect retaliation I know you can look at a picture of Michelle now if you want to it's I almost didn't include it cuz she's so cute I know she's looking all right tell me what happened all right so Michelle's parents Carl and Dorothy were in the middle of an ugly divorce and custody dispute um although both of them were very clear that they both adored their daughter they were just hated each other but that weekend Michelle was staying with her dad who lived a few houses down the road from the Clarks and she had been playing in an inflatable pool in the backyard for a little while but she had gotten bored and wandered over to see if Eliza could come out and play with her Haden apparently saw an opportunity to quote get back at his niece for calling him a name his six-year-old niece get back at a six-year-old so he told Michelle that Eliza was upstairs in her room and that she could go on up when Michelle was inside Haden went to his truck and took out a 12in chef's knife from his personal collection that he just carried around with him for his job and then he followed her upstairs and surprised her to her credit Michelle did fight back and she bit his hand when he covered her mouth and this was after she had already been like injured but he did kill her thankfully very quickly I don't think it took long after she was dead it says that he tried to sexually assault her body but wasn't able to so Fu him and then he got plastic bags and a duffel bag out of his truck he put Michelle's body in a plastic bag and then in the duffel bag and then he cleaned up the room because everything was now covered in blood and mind you this is his niece's room his six-year-old niece sleeps in this room everything that had blood on it he put into plastic bags and then he put everything plastic bags and like Michelle's body in the bed of his truck which was covered with one of those metal caps and then he went to work at his job at the Chevy Chase Country Club um where he clocked in at 2:46 p.m. so after his shift Haden went to the Bethesda naval hospital where he got the bite wound on his hand dressed which I just want to say why are hospitals not supposed to report like they should be obligated I feel like to report human bites bite wounds or like at least ask questions and fill out an inant report right be like why do you have a child's bite mark on your hand you have to explain that I mean he probably was like H yeah no it was my kid or my my niece we were playing or like oh my niece has issues M and she bit and a little too hard yeah I mean it it does seem like something that's pretty easy to explain away M and especially if he's got like any level of Charisma whatsoever probably pretty easy I don't know I feel like maybe I don't know I don't want to speculate cuz I'm like he didn't have any Charisma but I feel like maybe he had a level of like garnering sympathy or like I feel like he was able to Gar sympathy for himself yeah maybe okay so he gets his wound uh dressed and then he drives towards Baltimore and it's now around midnight he stopped near a wooded area along Old Columbia Pike and dug a 4 foot wide hole at the base of a tree some ways into the woods he put the entire duffel bag containing Michelle's body in the hole but before covering up covering it up he unclear on this I have read several different accounts that said he drank some of her blood another account said that he like actually ate some part of her unclear well I mean as we all know from Interview with the Vampire you don't drink dead blood obviously you don't but he's already done that with the meat the raw meat so that's true I don't know so he did some some kind of cannibalistic thing and then for some reason instead of like well maybe he I don't know again unclear this made it seem like he didn't fill in the hole he just covered it with parts of an old mattress that he had found and leaves but I'm assuming he filled in the dirt and anyways meanwhile back in Silver Springs carlor so Michelle's dad had reported her missing shortly after 5:30 p.m. he had noticed that she wasn't in the backyard anymore and he had just assumed that she was with Eliza Clark because that was like a very normal thing for her to do mhm they lived like two doors down she's six and like that's not that far for her to walk I mean I used to go to my friend Rachel's house all the time and she was Three Doors Down MH but of course I always asked before I left yeah that's true so he like when he noticed that she wasn't in the backyard he didn't immediately go looking for her he was just like I'm sure she's at Eliza's let me finish up what I'm doing and then I'll go grab her and like like tell her it's time to come home so when he did go over to the Clarks um they were home by then and he talked to Jeffrey who was like nope we've been out for like a good part of the day and Michelle hasn't been here so that's when he was like panic mode yeah panic I think he looked like looked himself for a bit and then called the police police as you will not be surprised to hear she has to be missing for 20 4 hours she's six she's not a Runway I know well they immediately suspected Carl in his own daughter's disappearance the man who was reporting her missing they're like well you probably did it and I can only assume that that was just because it was easier like the easiest thing to well I mean there is a a percentage of I forget what it is but it's a staggeringly high percentage of child abductions are perpetrated by one of the child's parents true true but does that how often does that parent is the person who reports them missing and it's like please help me find her search my house I mean again it is it's like oh I'm going to paint my I'm going to put myself ahead of this I'm going to paint myself as innocent to remove myself as a suspect from the get-go yeah I mean it's risky yeah but it's a move yeah it sucks uh I mean they there obviously was this awful custody battle happening unfortunately Carl had made threats in the past to Dorothy about kidnapping Michelle but like I'm sure he said it like I'm going to take her and she's going to live with me and there's nothing you can do to stop me not like I'm going to take her and hide her from you and the authorities and make it look like she's been kidnapped by someone else right yeah Dorothy said that he was trying to get out of paying child support and so like she believed the police it's literally horrible all of the accusations and questioning by police eventually LED Carl to have a psychotic break um he had hallucinations and delusions and he had to be committed for 72 hours at one point like and he like went goes into detail about like the hallucinations that he was having like he was like I thought my dead father was talking to me like I thought I was Jesus Christ at some point like I thought I had done it at one point and I was like damn you really did have a psychotic break like I'm so sorry that this stupid police so I mean not only is he you know going to have to deal with the grief of losing his daughter he's also got all the badgering yeah yeah and like the police badgered him to a psycho awesome awesome yeah the police did do like a some kind of search well I mean they did they did a search for Michelle they were just more focused on Carl being the one that had caused her disappearance and during the aam's Raz are the simplest thing and like just there's a precedent for yeah this kind of a situation and you know it's more often perpetrated by a father than a mother yeah yeah so during this search one officer who was canvasing the area came across Haden at his brother's house again so he stopped and he talked to him and he said hey were you here in the area on May 31st and Haden said yes but I was only here for a few minutes and so the officer like took down his name and I guess later on they looked into his background and they found out that he was quote the neighborhood Weirdo And so they're like well let's bring him in and question him anyways and just see what we can get unfortunately the police were going off of a faulty timeline for Michelle's disappearance because Carl felt so guilty about not keeping a better eye on her he had lied and told police that the last time he saw her was around 210 when in reality the last time he really saw her was closer to 12 when she actually walked away and encountered Haden I don't have a six-year-old yet but I can't imagine going hours without putting eyes on him yeah and like I I did see something else that made it seem like like it makes me nervous to leave him in his room where it's obviously like childproof and like still Anything Could Happen mhm but like he's locked in his room and if I have to go to the bathroom literally just outside like if I open the door just the right way I can peek through the crack and see into his room like he's right there yeah I I get nervous about that yeah well especially in a pool too like yes drown in a pool even a baby pool she could slip fall hit her head be knocked unconscious and then drop yeah go sorry yeah well so yeah so he feels this horrible guilt he wasn't AE on I mean let's be real rightfully so rightfully yeah whatever so he says 210 so police are like okay she went missing at 210 well Haden the first thing that he does when he gets brought in by police or whatever he's like hey I clocked in at 2:46 here's proof of that and so police are like well 36 minutes isn't enough time to kidnap and hide or kill and hide you know and then get to and then get to work so like that's too small of a window we don't think he really did it but like we'll talk to him but like lowkey under the table he's probably not our guy because this doesn't fit he's a base let's cover it yeah so they do question him and he mentions that the neighborhood kids weren't nice to him and that a boy had kicked him in the testicles one time and then he tells police that he had quote play y pinned a little girl down like on the ground one time I don't know what the context was of that I don't think there's a way that you can make it sound normal but police jumped on that and they were like okay did you do that to Michelle like you've done it to one little girl is that what you did to Michelle then they showed him a picture of Michelle and he wouldn't look at it and he starts to get like really uncomfortable and suddenly he gets up and he goes to the bathroom and he starts throwing up and he's just like freaking out meanwhile IID be a police and be like I know this doesn't add up with the timeline but that's really guilty Behavior like avoiding looking at the picture huge red flag yeah so they follow him into the bathroom they keep asking him questions like while he's like puking they're sliding pictures of Michelle under the stall and eventually Haden says quote I may have done something sometimes I black out and I do things I can't remember or I don't remember and unfortunately that wasn't enough for them to actually hold him mhm so they have to let him go and I will say that like had he not actually been the Killer and had he just been like a mentally ill person that lived in the area and also admitting to blacking out yeah or like if he really was just like the neighborhood weirdo MH and he didn't actually do any of like if this was a different person but like who had these same mental illnesses and who's just weird like that the kids don't like him because of because he's weird well also I'm sure they could see that he was in the military and was discharged because of his yeah diagnosis with paranoid schizophrenia yeah I like I I get why they did these things but then there's also part of me that's like I don't know if that's the way that you question like a person with those kind of mental illnesses and I also think this is a great time to mention that the police should have some uh some training some training in that area I think they do now I mean definitely more so now than obvious yeah for sure but I don't know just a good also mental health wasn't looked at the way that it is today it's true that's true it's very sad it's just amazing In Our Lifetime how much has changed I know it's like we're old but we're not that old I know I had to bring up to someone the other day the fact that like our generation is the one that that the last one that remembers like living without like cell phones and like easy access to computers but then also getting those things and it becoming easy access and commonplace I'm like yeah man we really did live through that like ours ours is a weird generation because of just how much technology advanced in such a short time gosh it it exploded in a short period of time where up until now yeah technology has progressed and you know sometimes you know faster than others but it's always been kind of like a slow and steady thing like not a lot happens right away like ooh cars cars were a thing for a while and then o planes planes were a thing for a while and then it just it just kind of started snowballing yet no I'm just saying there was one hot thing for a while yeah and then there was a new hot thing for a while and then now it's like every day just it's snowballed and like really kind of hit it stride yeah now it's in the middle of our generation oh it's terrifying I think about what those aliens said to those kids a lot I mean look at all of like if you scroll through your Facebook feed I guarantee you probably like 20% of the random like suggested for you pictures are actually AI generated art yeah and it looks real there was one that I saw that you know I was just by and I had to stop and do a double take because I was like what the and it was it was a car uhhuh but it was like a library on top of it kind of thing so like it was like shelves it was like in this um like pillar shape so you look at it and looks like a real photo uhhuh but then the longer you look at it you're like wait a second the bulk of the weight of this you know like multi-tiered yeah like Library shelf you know pillar yeah a it just looks a little funky it's like way too like new Agy architecture yeah but you look at the wheels of the car like the car is this long so like imagine the car is you know a foot long yeah but both of the wheels are in like the first 4 Ines of it o yeah that's weird there's no way this is real because the wheels are there and then also there's just like little bits of it that just look Wonka doodle and out place I hate I hate that like The Uncanny Valley thing where you can see like the AI didn't get it quite right where it's like like I have a an app like a photo editing app that I'll use a lot of times for the podcast pictures um but one of the things it has is an AI just like kind of like an auto enhance thing and I like it cuz a lot of times it does like clarify pictures a lot and it'll kind of smooth things out or whatever and um so I usually will do that first and then you it'll show you the difference in the two and then you can either accept it or choose not to use it and most of the time when I choose not to use it it's because it's like overly done something where I'm like I can't put my finger on it but that doesn't look real anymore you've overdone it you've over aied this thing the thing that frustrates me about AI is probably a lot of things but I saw this image of a like crocheted lion or whatever that's giant uhhuh that's like eight times the size of a normal lion or whatever like it's huge and there's somebody standing next to it so looks looks really real yeah and it's frustrating because that image is not real yeah however there are fiber artists out there who do crochet and knit life siiz things like there's this really interesting exhibit that I I would like to see and learn more about and it's somebody's like crocheted people and they're people sized oo and you know with the exception of like them obviously not looking real like they're they're very you know realistic looking and uh so it's like H this this AI C C makes people believe that that's real even though it's not meanwhile there's actually these really talented artists out there who are creating real stuff anyhow Soap Box I know I forgot even why we started talking about this okay so they they cut Haden loose because he didn't really confess to anything he just made himself look not great the search for Michelle eventually goes cold um but police continue to suspect Carl this whole time so after Jeffrey kicks him out Haden drifts around from rental to rental for a while before eventually living out of his truck or camping in the woods and I think he was uh camped like like in like kind of a homeless community in the woods it's unclear um his last landlord before he started Living in his truck kicked him out because quote he seemed crazy and evil and Haden didn't like that and so he retaliated by trashing and booby trapping the house before he left he balanced a 10 gallon bucket of oil over the door he sprayed black dye on the carpets he hid rotting fish heads in the piano chimney and stove and he killed the family cats cats cats okay oh it sounded for a second like you said kids oh no no no cats wouldn't that be a fun way for me to just slide into our next murder what what what no no um so needless to say he did not get that security deposit back and he did get a destruction of property charge for that and in 1988 he got an assault charge after he attacked Flavia on a visit to her home in Rhode Island she caught him stealing from her and so she confronted him and he pushed her to the ground began kicking her and then tried to run her over with a car and so she called the police yeah and he got a year of probation for that and then in 1989 and I believe that this is while he's still on probation he is arrested for theft because he had gone into local churches dressed as a woman and stolen purses and coats from the women in the choir while they were practicing however the judge was sympathetic because of his mental state and only gave him more probation no jailed him and his public defender was also very sympathetic towards him because he wrote him a letter or like a note and I guess he like made several copies of it and he was like keep this with you and if you ever get arrested again I want you to hand this to the police and this is what the letter says I already hate it I know and okay I also want to say on record if if this was anyone else then like I think this is a great idea for like someone who has maybe intellectual deficiencies or which again Haden does not but but but like maybe someone who doesn't know not to talk or to ask for a lawyer or something this would be a good idea for them not for someone like Haden but I digress so the note says I want the help of my lawyer Donald P salsman and I want my lawyer to be present before I answer any questions about my case or any other matters I do not wish to speak to anyone concerning my criminal charges pending against me or anyone else or any criminal invest a regardless of whether I am charged I do not want to be in any lineup or give any handwriting samples or give any blood hair urine or any other samples unless my lawyer is present wow that public defender really covered all his bases I know and it says my lawyer's address and phone number R and it lists all that out and then below that was a place for a police officer to sign next to the phrase that says to prove that I have read the statement to you that I have read it please sign here so again I think that is a great idea for certain individuals M I can see that now yeah and like I put these things in here like the police should have him on their radar like it's not like he's avoiding the authorities for these next several years like he's not he's getting in trouble for real things now he has like like this article said he has a get out of jail free card like in his back pocket and he's already murdered a six-year-old Haden was also in and out of local veteran hospitals like all throughout this time he would go in to seek treatment for his mental illnesses he would get treatment I think they would give him like antis psychotics or something but he would only stay on those for a few days and then he would return to whatever he was doing before that and during one of those times this is what a doctor said of his mental state quote his mental state is psychosis with questionable ideology he states that birds and squirrels talk to him and keep him company he is tearful at times with intermittent outbursts of anger and agitation he is a potential danger to himself through poor judgment and self-defeating Behavior he's not staying out of the system like police know who he is he's constantly getting in trouble and like also so doctors know who he is and and at least one doctor has gone on record saying he's a potential danger to himself for sure in 1992 Haden I keep want to call him Hayden Haden got I like the name Hayden so stop trying to ruin it sorry Haden got a job working as a gardener for Penny hoteling I practiced saying that name then I forgot how to say it I think it's Hotel telling or hoteling is how the British narrator said it in the documentary I watched hoteling so this is in Bethesda Maryland Penny was a kind trusting woman and though and thought she was doing a Good Deed by hiring Haden who was living in a camp in the woods at this point so she's like here's this man who needs work I could hire like a you know a gardening company but this guy seems like he really could use the work and like I'm going to trust him and and let him do the work and he actually did really good work as far as a gardener is concerned and eventually Penny let him use the kitchen and the bathroom whenever he wanted and when he began stealing small things from her she either didn't notice or she was too polite to confront him and I think she confronted him once but in just the way of saying like some stuff has gone missing do you know anything about it like I don't think she was ever like think you're stealing from me yeah um and when she mentioned it he got like really angry and she was just like never mind don't worry about it like it's not that important so Haden becomes very very attached to Penny um and she's also I should mention she's like not old she's not elderly but she is like old enough to be his mom okay and so he starts to see her as a mother figure because Flavia has disowned him disowned him after the assault charges so he is like very attached to Penny penny is like you're a great Gardener whatever I'm a trusting person it's one of those situations where like he is mistaking her her politeness politeness and kindness for like affection affection yeah that summer of 1992 Penny's daughter Laura comes home to live with her after graduating from Harvard Laura is your next picture if you want to look I'm sorry I'm so sorry Laura was described by her friends as brilliant and she's pretty I know doesn't she look like a Harvard grad too she she's giving she's got Harvard hair I know and she's giving Legally Blonde Vibes too right she's also giving Sarah Michelle Geller Vibes ooh I can see it that hair man look at that choker I know it's like a pearl choker it's so beautiful no those look like ryin no no it is I guess pearls I don't know it's hard to tell in the print out yeah sorry my printer is like almost out of ink it's a problem I printed these today so she's described as brilliant her friends were like she's going to be president one day um like her mother she was also very kind-hearted oh it's a conspiracy we couldn't have a woman president yet I know I know um and she was really tall she was blonde she was beautiful as we already said and Hayden immediately resented her Haden Haden damn it Haden immediately resented her and felt slighted by the appearance of Penny's real child now living in her home because favoritism yes so in mid October Penny told Haden that she was going to a conference out of town and that she would be away for a few days specifically October 17th through the 25th the very next day Haden went to the hardware store and he bought two rolls of duct tape some braided rope and some nylon cord he paid for it with a check and in the memo line he wrote Laura which creepy I know and that was honestly the point in the story where I was like is it the mental illness because you're very clearly planning right now yeah no I all all right on October 17th 1992 so literally the first full day that penny has gone Laura spent the day watching football with her older brother Warren which wasn't that the boyfriend's name in Legally Blonde mhm Warner war war oh man I know it was something close another Harvard name so she spends the day watching football with him and then she had to be at work early the next morning so she goes to bed just after 10: p.m. p.m. hadn't CH up around midnight he is dressed in a bra and a pair of underwear that he had stolen from Penny weird the fact that he's that he stole it from someone he sees as a mother and is wearing it the part I was referring to is that was also the part that I was yeah hung up to be clear I mean at this point like he wears women's underwear that's not weird to me that's fine I mean like the mother situation is the the part that I'm finding strange I I think it's I guess it's I don't understand the why and it like it probably does go back to that childhood trauma of you know the force gender reassignment basically because for the most part anyone who wears or you like a man wearing women's clothing but like still like identifying as a man yeah like it's not common I don't think I feel like there's more to it than there usually is more to it than just oh I like wearing women's underwear yeah again there's nothing wrong with that it's just clothes just because it's World women's underwear doesn't mean it's only for women like I feel like there's just more more to it yeah I agree generally than like whereas but at the same time like whereas women are like oh yeah I wear boxers as like sleep shorts I was just going to say that I was like it also is a very much a a double standard because we I mean I'm literally wearing men's sweatpants that I bought from Target in the men's section and a men's shirt my bra is not a man's uh and I'm pretty sure my underwear is are women's cuz I bought them in the women's section but like who's to say yeah cloth clothes are just clothes they clothes just fabric you put on your body it's not weird when a when a woman wears man's clothes it shouldn't really be that weird when a woman or when a man wears women's clothes and I don't think it's I don't I'm not saying that it's weird that a man is wearing a woman's clothes I just feel like typically there's more to it than just I want to you wanted to be comfortable so you put on oh yeah this is because because women's clothes are famously uncomfortable yes this is the Comfort that's the more to it that it's more comfortable to wear men's clothing like I prefer men's flannels because they're actually flannel and warm and there's like it's a thick material not that they're not like squeezing the life out of your upper well and it's also not like a thin material that's just plaid and a little soft like that's not flannel I hate those yeah I agree I agree oh man so many soap boxes tonight who knew one of them was going to be I'm fired up right to wear men's flannels oh my gosh okay so he's wearing his ladies bra and underwear that are pennies yeah that's the weird part that's the only weird part don't steal your mom's underwear and wear it yeah um he is also wearing a women's blouse and slacks which are also possibly pennies I don't know he is wearing a wig and a women's trench coat and he is carrying a black purse and a 22 caliber caliber rifle that he is hiding beneath the coat there is speculation which I don't think this is necess well I don't know I'll let you give your two cents there's speculation that he was dressed this way uh so that when he went in and came out of the house people would think that he was Laura or didn't or wouldn't necessarily recognize him right it it wouldn't arise too much suspicion for a woman to be going in and out of this house where two women live yeah yeah I don't necessarily think it was just a disguise based on his history of this but I mean so I was gonna qu I was G to question though that like yes he's got a history of wearing women's underwear and that's one thing but you haven't mentioned up until now that he's you know well actually I guess you did yeah when he was stealing said that it came in continued into adulthood when you mentioned that he was dressed up as a as a girl when he was a kid yeah but you might have just been referring to this instance so well when he stole stole when he got charged with theft and he stole the purses and stuff from the church he was dressed as a woman then that's right yeah forgot about that so any so he lets himself into the house with the spare key from the gardening shed because of course he has a spare key to the house and he wakes up Lara by nudging her with a gun and at this point he starts to not make a lot of sense he starts asking her questions he says why are you in my bed why are you wearing my clothes and Laura is like hella confused and she's like I don't know what you're talking about but like please don't hurt me tell me tell me what you want me to do and he says tell me that I'm Lara and she was like okay you're Lara be whoever you want to be so my friend Shanley when she was doing her nursing school and she did the psych work rotation one of the doctors said something that I love when I try and think about whenever thinking about mental health and like unstable people essentially don't tell them that there aren't any ducks in the room just help them shoe the Ducks out that's I like that that's good so Laura is on track right now just go with it like I don't know why I'm in your bed or in your clothes I'm sorry yes you are Laura hello Laura yeah um I think at one point he even says swear on the Bible that I'm I'm Laura and not you and so she's like find me a Bible I will do that I will absolutely do that God will forgive you later Laura like do what you need to when he is done asking these weird questions he makes her undress and take a bath we don't know why he does that and then he tells her to lie on the floor while he ties her hands and feet with the tape that he has brought with him he puts tape over her mouth but then apparently he quote got so excited he couldn't stop and he covered her mouth nose and eyes with the tape and she suffocated to death because she couldn't breathe because that's what happens when you cover someone's mouth and nose with duct tape haton they can't breathe allegedly his plan had been to abduct her and take her back to his Campsite in the woods and quote introduce her to Haden after she was dead he cut off the tape from her face with a pair of scissors um apparently he cut her cheek in the process and then he cut off one of her earlobes because he wanted her earrings and he couldn't get the clasp undone on one of them so he just snipped it right off this is where I'm like okay reasoning skills are not there and this is again where I'm like I don't I I don't I don't I hate I don't know I don't know what to say like I hate blaming I don't know I don't know how to phrase this well I mean again like you have to look at it okay he's his in his mind you know like he's clearly not seeing the world the way that it is you know he's seeing this nice lady as his mother he is now threatened by the presence of her actual child yeah and you know is saying you know tell me I'm Laura like I'm Laura now like I'm going to take your place so like I'm not a psychologist but like his you have to think like okay well in his mind is what he's doing right or wrong yeah and if he's if it's in his mind like what like what is his reality is his reality killing is okay yeah yeah or is he still in our reality where killing is not okay yeah but he has to do it anyway yeah right like that would that would kind of be the different the differencing thing like oh no what I'm doing is totally okay yeah versus knowing oh no you like killing is bad but I have to do it like she she can't be alive or it sounds like in this case he he didn't have a true intention of killing her yeah it was he was kind of he had a very loose plan yeah very loose not fully formed yeah he was more driven by just probably confusing thoughts feelings and then just urges of I'm being replaced like my mother abandoned me because you know I assault her and now I don't have a mother but this woman is being my mother prob very confused and yeah and again like the whole he's doing it to like the relationships that he had like with I hate to keep bringing up this guy because I really do try to not ever think about him again but with Robert Chase he was killing people not to hurt the people not because he uh didn't see any well I he probably didn't see any value in their lives but like he literally thought I'm dying this is the only way I can live is for me to do all of these weird gross and like it was very very very very apparent especially when they went into his house and found the state that it was in that like he was unwell very unwell and with Haden it's like okay I see what your reason is is that you're upset that you were no longer pennies like one un focus and like the person that she is like showing affection to or showing kindness to I feel like you've got to know that killing her daughter is not the way to deal with that the whole like it follows that pattern of like reacting or retaliating in a way that's very disproportionate to what he feels like has been done to him well also if he's been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia like I I feel like for the most part he knows right from wrong but he has episodes yeah where he you know and like he said sometimes he does stuff in blacks out and I'm like I don't know how accurate that actually is yeah but I feel like he just has these episodes and like these like psychotic break kind of a thing where like he's not really in our reality but like I don't I don't know I don't know yeah uh do you need a palette cleanser real quick or should we get through a little bit more or let me just get through until out of the house and then I'll get you one or I'll take one from you okay so he he's cut her ear lobe off to get the earrings so then he sat and watched her body for an hour he would later deny that he sexually assaulted her or cannibalized her in any way no idea if that's true or not and then around 3:00 a.m. so he's been there for 3 hours now he wrapped her in a sheet and carried her to his truck and then he goes back inside cleans up her room he bags all of the bloody sheets pillowcases mattress pad everything like that and then he takes some of her things like little Trinkets and jewelry as trophies and then he puts all of that in his truck and then he goes back into the house and he goes to sleep on her bed and then he like he sleeps for like four or five hours cuz he leaves the house at 8:00 a.m. and he was actually seen by a witness leaving the house and when she saw him she would later tell police that she thought she was looking at Laura leaving for work in the morning and that's why some people say they think he dressed up so that he could make people think that he was Laura leaving in the morning so that when she was discovered missing like the timeline again would be off with like well she wasn't missing from her house because we saw her leave her house at 8 she's missing from somewhere else so Warren decides that he is going to walk the route that Laura usually takes to the bus stop so while he's doing that he sees Haden in his truck coming down the road Haden was actually on his way back to the house to steal more [ __ ] but Warren like Flags him down because he is going to ask him if he's seen Laura because he knows Haden yeah because he's his mom's gardeners yeah so Haden starts to pull over for him why doesn't Haden have a problem with Warren is it because Warren doesn't live there I think it's cuz Warren doesn't live there okay yeah so Haden starts to pull over and then at the last second he changes his mind and takes off and Warren apparently doesn't find this suspicious he's just like my mom's Garden is kind of weird people are dense I know and Warren is also like surprisingly chill for the day his sister goes missing and like I'd be suspicious of literally everyone yep I'd be like that guy didn't want to talk to me for more than eight minutes then again I would also like be trying to be like okay don't panic like let's you know like stop trying to look for the unordinary and everything like let's let's just find simplest thing you know like yeah yeah maybe he was just like let me just get to the bus stop she's probably there but Haden had been SP Ed by this encounter and so he drove that night to a spot on I 270 where he buried Laura in a shallow grave and then he drove towards New England and he stopped in Rhode Island where he had a storage unit and that's where he put the bloody sheets the mattress pad and the trinkets that he had stolen from Laura but he kept the bloody pillowcase because he wanted to like relive what had happened which is another thing where I'm like yeah no serial killers keep souvenirs for that reason so when Haden gets back to Maryland at some point he gets a phone call from police who are like hey we'd like to question you about The Disappearance of this girl Laura and this is because obviously his name came up because he is their Gardener and like well he also has access to the house yeah and so Warren mentioned him and Penny mentioned him and when they said his name the police had recognized it and they had remembered that he had briefly been a suspect in Michelle door's still unsolved disappearance and so they're like hey can you come in and Haden's like yeah I'll come in tomorrow and talk to you and then he immediately went back to the church parking lot near Penny's house takes the bloody pillowcase goes out into the woods near the parking lot and gets rid of the pillowcase and then probably takes another nap I don't know so he goes in and talks to police the next day and also where is he getting this phone call from the police like did he was he at Penny cuz like there's no payones in the woods at a a hobo encampment I'm sure a cell I don't know well it's 92 he doesn't have a cell phone that's a great question I have no idea how he's getting phone calls I never thought of that it just said he got a call from police if anything he has a car phone but that seems highly unlikely that truck no they did say that he had a pretty decent amount of savings because they're like well living in your truck costs nothing and he is working so it's like he's working and just basically saving money but yeah I have no idea where those phone calls are coming from or going to they're coming from inside the house [Laughter] obviously so during his interview with police he says I was sleeping when Laura they I mean I guess they're presuming she went missing whatever so he was like I was sleeping last night whatever and they can't verify that like who knows so police are like okay we're going to make a note of you they let him go meanwhile police are like still frantically searching for Lura and so they get some doggos involved because doggos are the best and the very good dogs lead them to the woods near the church parking lot because it's two blocks from her house very close and in the woods they find one of Penny's bras which I'm sure Penny was like what is my bra doing in the woods is this one of the ones that's gone missing yeah they find a woman's blouse a high heeled shoe and the Bloody pillowcase they determined that the blood on the pillowcase matched Lara's blood type and there is a single fingerprint on the pillowcase so on a hunch police bring Haden back in before the fingerprint was like analyzed it's like in processing and they're like we have your fingerprint on the pillowcase they're just like bluffing at this point MH and riscy move I know I know and similar to what happened when they were questioning him about Michelle door oh did he start vomiting and saying sometimes I BL out he didn't start vomiting but he did start to cry and when they said what did you do to Laura he said I don't remember and since that's technically not a confession and they didn't actually have a fingerprint for of him they let him go but they did have enough evidence to get search warrants so they get some search warrants first they search his campsite nothing turns up because he's put everything in storage but then they search his bank account and they find check oh the the check yes that would have been great if they found the storage unit I mean he's paying for it somehow I know no they find the check and they find the Meemo line that says Laura which is why you should never fill out your memo lines on checks it's like the when PayPal or uh venmo makes you write like what is this for it's like venmo I know you're nonsensical emojis it's like I know you're doing this because you want to tax my friend for her Services my nail girl and I do that she's like don't put that it's for a nail service put something else and so I'll just put Emojis relating to whatever conversation we had that day it's great so the bank account uh the check they find the check and then the finger fingerprint analysis comes back and the fingerprint belongs to Haden so police are like all right let's call him oh wait he doesn't have a phone never mind I don't know how we've been doing that this whole time they let's go find his truck let's get him in so they find him sleeping in his truck and they arrest him and charge him with second degree murder at the trial Haden pled guilty because they had overwhelming evidence against him and he was sentenced to 30 years in prison did they find or did he this overwhelming evidence did they get access to the storage unit I'm assuming um I'm sure they did they didn't it's not specified to me that would be the overwhelming evidence yeah yeah it's true um but this is in 1993 so it's a year afterwards is when he's sentenced and then within days of his sentencing he agrees to lead police to Laura's body which again is pretty pretty remarkable that they were able to get a guilty verdict without a body because that's I think pretty uncommon so he goes to serve his 30-year prison which I don't I am assuming Maryland is just like very light on their sentencing laws he got his brother got like 18 years for murdering but that was in California oh yeah that's true it was 18 to life well still 30 I mean I'm sure it's 30 to life but come on come on so while in prison he started bragging to some inmates and this is when he detailed how he had killed Michelle door that's how we know that information and those inmates who I don't know if you know this but inmates famously don't like people who kill children yes they were like oh that's really cool Haden I got to go make a phone call real quick so any kind of violence or like sexual especially violence against children not okay you are the lowest of the low on the prison totem pole I know I'm actually surprised he didn't get murdered in prison little bit yeah yeah so instead these inmates are like we got to make a phone call real quick they call police and they were like hey we have a story for you also but I'm not going to tell you unless you promis to shorten my sentence yep and luckily police played ball with them part of the renewed investigation into Michelle's uh now murder was Finding they reinvestigated the Clark home Jeffrey Clark's home and they found traces of blood in the floorboard floorboards of Eliza's room which God can you like how many years years later is this too like can you imagine like oh man my friend went missing and everyone thinks she's been you know kidnapped or murdered by her dad like there's this whole thing that I'm still too young to fully not comprehend meanwhile I've been sleeping every night in the room where she was murdered yeah she I mean she's got to be a teenager by now at least and it's like oh cool actually there's been blood your friend's blood in the floors this entire time like I'm not a person who gets like creeped out of like oh somebody died in this house like lots of people have died in lots of houses like it happens like it doesn't creep me out like to know that like if somebody had died in my house like be like oh that sucks I hope it was when they were old and ready to go yeah and not murdered because sucks but it wouldn't creep me out but like if my childhood friend was killed in my room that that would mess me up a little bit I can I really hope that they weren't living there anymore and I also really hope that like they just didn't tell Eliza about them they were just like never mind but they were able to collect enough evidence uh again to to convict Haden without a body so he was convicted finally of Michelle's murder and sentenced to another 30 years and after this conviction Haden meets a man in prison who he believes is Jesus Christ and I meant to find a picture of him because I saw a picture of him because the author was like he actually did look a lot like uh like common pictures of G no he doesn't he just has long hair it's just a guy with long hair but hadn't starts telling prison Jesus that he had murdered a bunch of women in addition to Michelle and Laura and so in 2000 they make a deal and police take prison Jesus and hayen Haden sorry I'm hung up on Prison Jesus here they take prison Jesus and Haden to four different states outside of Maryland so that Haden could try and point out where other victims were buried this included him leading them to Michelle's body in January of 2000 so that was the first one well that's nice that her parents were able to recover and put her to rest H I know and like this documentary thing I watched on YouTube is like has interviews with her dad like as of right now which is horrible because I'm like he's not that old like he's like our parents age and I'm like this is very upsetting but he's like well we buried her on a plot right outside of DC we like my dad's buried and she's like the fourth generation of our family that's buried there and I'm like you shouldn't have to bury your child this is terrible um uh part of this deal that I'm assuming Haden stipulated on these uh circumstances so Haden was like I will I will not go out in public with you guys unless I am wearing women's underwear a bra and a wig and so police went and bought these things for him at a Kmart of all places which like I feel like it has to didn't know they sold wigs at Kmart I know can you imagine wearing a wig that came from Kmart like it's not great but they give him these things they're like he wore them under his prison uniform and he was happy to like show us around but no other bodies were ever located so did he ever point out where Laura was buried yeah he did that right after he was convicted of her that's right that's right I'm sorry that's okay so they didn't find any bodies but they did find a large bucket which I think I mentioned to you last time a large bucket buried on the edge of his grandfather's former estate and in this bucket were approximately 200 pieces of women's jewelry including Laura's class ring Haden claimed that all the jewelry was from women that he had murdered which is a lot if he's telling the truth FBI Behavioral scientists estimated that he had killed between 12 and 22 people and and this was just based on how comfortable he was like handling dead bodies and like how well and how easily he cleaned up crime scenes they were like you've done this more than just like two times and like someone also said like if if you could kill someone that like Michelle you can kill anyone yeah so it's unclear uh if he's bragging or making up he's currently serving his 60-year sentence at Eastern Correctional Institution in West over Maryland and he will be 71 years old next month and that is the story of Haden Clark so sorry for everyone well if you want to see pictures from tonight's episode check out our Facebook and Instagram at the tales we podcast if you want to support us and get yourself sweet sweet swag check out our red bubble store search the tales we tell we've got several different logos you can put that on anything here and if you want to support us but you don't need the stuff you can become a patron at patreon.com search the tales we tell all patrons get Early Access commercial free listening they get access to bonus content sometimes we send out stickers and love notes and other random fun stuff so yep always a good time and also uh if you're enjoying things maybe not this episode in particular with all of its delightful aspects so sorry please drop us a review you know five stars a little a little blurb about how much you love the show or just or just a a review the you know that's how other people can find us and listen to other really just uplifting episodes like tonight iise risky episode for sure I know I promise next week will be better only because my brain cannot handle doing another episode like this this week so I I just need to like shut down I I need a couple of days I was going to say I can make up the guest room for you if you want to just go crash here and I'll call Shelton and be like I don't know where she is she left here an hour ago that won't send him into a tail spin of panic she said something about running away from her life Taco Bell and run away oh no I texted him last night I'm like I'm ready to run away screaming from this house oh man well thanks for sticking around and we'll see you guys next week bye