Lev Parnas & The Moscow/Trump Connection (On the Edge episode14)

see their whole tactic is not to try they con they just put that doubt and they let you go down the rabbit hole yourself and they just give you the the places to go it's not that difficult to think that Ukraine all of them are corrupt all of them are fascists and Nazis because there's enough propaganda out there if you want to read it to tell you that hello Our Guest this week on the edge is Ukrainian born us raised Lev parnis who many of you will recognize from his time working with Rudy Giuliani trying to dig up dirt on uh the Biden family here in Ukraine so he is uniquely qualified to talk about how Russian military intelligence stages their information Warfare against the West so first and foremost L Paris uh I just want to say to you how much we appreciate you taking the time and speaking to us um this is an incredibly important topic and I I'm eager to speak to you because you know as much as I have covered this part of the world um uh it is always a rare occurrence for me to be able to talk to somebody who actually had Direct interaction with a Russian uh information Warfare campaign that was aimed at the United States I mean that's what this was so um I appreciate you giving me the opportunity we're going to be do this is going to May me be a little bit different than some of the interviews that you you've done in the past because of course we're coming from this perspective out of Ukraine so I want to focus on on not so much on on what the Trump team was doing in America although we'll discuss that I really want to talk about about what's been happening uh you know Putin's efforts and this kind of uh um you know from a from a Ukrainian Russian you know perspective so um we'll get into the cherry on the top of the cake uh when you talk about like your efforts uh in the runup to the 2020 election but before we do that chronolog logically I'd list just like to start off with a big question in my mind and I know where I stand on this but I'd like to hear your input especially with your expertise and experiences is there any doubt in your mind that in 2016 um the Russian uh Military Intelligence the gru the Kremlin um infiltrated our body politic and through the chaos grenade that is uh Donald Trump in in into our uh election in in essence uh swayed what was a very very close uh election with Hillary Clinton I mean I I put Trump squarely as a Russian asset because to my mind having studied these guys I could see I could see what was happening do do you see the same thing that that Trump was uh n willingly knowledgeably or not installed by Russia yeah well thank you for having me philli and I you know I agree with you on almost everything you said you know and I just want to you know I'll push back a little bit because of it's important for the truth to come out because uh a lot of people say a lot of things about Donald Trump and what I try to make sure is that the you know we don't allow him to fight these because there's a lot of also conspiracies about Donald Trump and when you and we don't need to throw any extra conspiracies when he there's enough facts and truth about actually what he did so when when we talk about him being an asset he was never an asset where you're talking about like say somebody that went over there and was you know trained and you know over here was like you know fed information over years and was working with the gru or the Kremlin and then eventually built himself up to become the president and now he's a GRU asset working for you know the government that never happened so let's make sure we understand that but was he an asset absolutely he was an asset he was an I call him an unwilling fool you know somebody that basically you got to understand Trump Donald Trump who Donald Trump is and then you'll understand why he's such a perfect asset for uh the Kremlin uh uh for China for uh you know even you know as even with a strong stance against Iran he's even an asset for them because what he does he's he has the mind of a dictator he grew up uh with a authoritarian father and authoritarian uh family he grew up and also in the time in New York you have to understand where Mobsters controlled all of the you know the mafia controlled all the construction all the unions and that's who Donald Trump dealt with because that's who he was he was a builder he also then went over into the casino industry again he had to deal with the mob so his whole life he grew up in a an atmosphere where it's like wanting to be that guy where where I say goes not have anybody doubt him not any have anybody second gas him but what I say goes and that's the mentality Donald Trump has and that's the same mentality dictators have and authoritarians have but the other thing Donald Trump has that is even worse is his narcissism he his narcissism is to such a degree where it's you know it taking him to become a monster and it's grown over time obviously so yes Donald Trump admires Vladimir Putin very much he doesn't know Vlad and it's not easy to manipulate it's not that hard to manipulate a guy like that if you know if you you know his insecurities and all the rest of it I'm sure the gru did yeah and so P string you pull the strings you put a press release out you you you invite him to a party you send in somebody yes so absolutely was he groomed 100% you know what I'm saying to you even to the fact that you have to remember in the 90s and the 2000 when all of a sudden the the Russians when the wall broke down where did they pour all that money in into real estate it was all into Trump properties you know what I'm saying well this is the yeah yeah this is the thing this is the thing it's like yeah you could say it's coincidence you could say oh okay he had the high-end properties yeah it all looked great but you know these people weren't coming in and buying one apartment at a time these people were coming in and basically cleaning their money by buying 503 Apartments million doll apartments at a time yeah and and you know so when when you do that you become close with the developer and so Trump over the years has built relationships with some of these you could say uh very close Associates of Vladimir Putin so was he ever close so he's he doesn't have a relationship with Vladimir Putin Vladimir Putin thinks he's a joke but Vladimir Putin loves him because he's so useful to him and what he's doing because just think about Vladimir Putin his dream is to dismantle NATO and here he has a guy coming up there the president of the United States where he didn't have to ask him he didn't have to call him and bribe him he didn't have to offer him something for it he didn't even expected the guy himself comes out and says I'm going to dismantle NATO and I'm going to tell Vladimir Putin do whatever you want to do I mean just think about but the reason Trump does that see you have to understand his mentality this Trump understands because when you deal with gangsters it's all about messaging it's all about cryptonic messages so he's not going to pick up the phone and call Vladimir Putin and say hey I'm going to do this for you and I want you to help me with my elections and make sure that I'm do whatever it takes your Bots your AI whatever it takes Go bomb Ukraine get Iran to get involved make the world a mess so I get into office how does he do that he can't pick up the phone and call him because it's all recorded there's everything you know so he goes on live TV for no reason nobody NATO was not even in the news and comes out and just says you know what uh NATO sucks I told them they suck I told them they're going to pay me more you know what and if they don't you know I told Vladimir P should do whatever he wants out of the blue people didn't understand what was going on but a week later what happened we had the death of naalii so I mean all of these things you know all these cryptic just so yes is Trump an asset he's a tremendous asset for Russia for all of these not only authoritarian countries but also for all the criminal world all of these oligarchs all over the world yeah I'm sorry go ahead Phil I have said this for years uh I was I saw the rise of Vladimir Putin I was I was a Moscow correspondent in the late 90s I saw the end of the elsen era and the rise of of of Putin and I have said for many many years and you can speak to this because you partly grew you grew up partly in in Little Odessa this Brighton Beach kind of section not only that but from ' 89 to 93 during the whole fall though I was in Russia I was doing International Trade there I I've actually met Putin uh not met him personally but met him and when he was the mayor at the time he wasn't even uh he was the mayor of Leningrad the time see Peter Petersburg he was uh um he was the bagman for um oh uh what's his gapping on the mayor's name but uh uh sochu sochu anyhow yeah I I've said for years that we thought at the end of the Cold War that it would be our system that would go east we we won the cold war after all right but what I think actually happened was we we took down the the the the Iron Curtain and the corruption of the Soviet Union and the Russian system flooded uh West we didn't go east with our culture with democracy the rule of law and capitalism their crony capitalism and their their kind of uh gangsterism came West you see it in New York all over the place you see it in London Paris yeah it's all over the world but it absolutely and you know when we say we won we didn't really win we we what happens is like in the fight we beat the guy up he was laying on the ground and you know it was a a fight to the death because whoever wins is going to kill the other guy and then all of a sudden we had pity on him like we always do because we have empathy we have humanity and because we we want to feel that the other side is going to do right and we let them live and you know and they took that advantage and like you said absolutely instead of they understood that they needed to because the number one thing to be able to be powerful is you need to have financing and what Vladimir Putin did creatively is he took his oligarchs and and made that his army he loaded them up with money and spread them all over the world to invest that money into critical different parts of uh you know real estate different parts of energy and you know do of that when they were all basically using his money under the pretenses that they were building a democracy they let go all of their criminals all over the world allowing them free Haven back in Russia if they were to get in trouble just look at back in the history and that over time absolutely they instead of us yes did we infiltrate democracy in Russia absolutely there's lots of people there that hate Vladimir Putin that understand what it is but we didn't do enough you know and we allowed him we allowed him to take 20 years basically to regain himself get stronger build up his um uh money and U his only underestimation was that uh his biggest underestimation was besides all the bad information he was getting from his Russian uh counterparts in the Ukrainian government uh like miduk and those guys but the biggest problem was he underestimated that Joe Biden was going to be able to get NATO back together unite everybody and and come out and help Ukraine at the most critical time such strong he never thought that was going to happen when when Trump left office the way NATO was dismantled and then January 6 in the united stat see people say oh yeah he invaded under Biden but he it took him time to invade he had to watch he looked at the what Trump the chaos he understood that the United States was going through their own Insurrection they're not going to worry about he thought about any other country right now so plus NATO in disarray and without the United States coming out as a leader they're not going to start funding Ukraine and just throwing money down the drain so for him it was it was that's why he made those statements I'm going to come into Kev and take it over in two three days yeah but Whately underestimate M hug but the biggest under was the will of the Ukrainian people that was the biggest no I see it here every day he thought he was going to come in there and they were going to he was being told by miduk and others that he's going to come in there and they're going to accept him with you know parades and they're going to want to I mean instead he they kicked his ass and told him to get the hell out of here yeah they sure did uh yeah the second he he didn't decapitate the government here and take Odessa the war was lost but um it's interesting you talk about this because you have this understanding you you being an American citizen you your family moved there when what you were three so you know you are you have a leg in both cultures and you understand um the the the corruption that you I'm sure saw when you were living in Russia and then obviously what happened here in Ukraine I I I you first came to Ukraine in in 2001 so I've seen a lot of different phases so let me talk a little bit about the as we approach the discussion of what you you and Giuliani were doing here in the runup to 2020 there's this whole period of time that I think our American audience needs to understand uh where I equate it to the legendary that the classic film Casablanca where you're in this very weird place where you have all these uh factions and they're all operating in the same city but they're they're at odds with one another so you've got I mean they they didn't even close they didn't even close ex Phil it's it's Casablanca man it's it's totally cablanca with the free French the free French on on one side of Rick's bar it's totally Casablanca I remember coming here during this this period of time and always I run into people and be like that dude is up to something that guy is sketchy these guys are running some scam those guys are running some scam steroids it was Casablanca steroids I mean with with car bombings and assassinations oh my you know yes yes explain to me the kind of environment that you were going into with this Ukraine as it was during this period you're coming into a place with massive corruption and all of these minations going on what was KV like when you started coming here and kind of doing what it was uh in conjunction with the BLT guys and we'll go into that in depth uh later but I just want to set the scene what was K like when you were doing all this stuff so you have to understand Philip you know have a I have a really good understanding about Eastern uh politics and Eastern because not only did I was I born there and I came here to United States when I was 3 years old and I moved into into that little Enclave of Brighton Beach but I also when I turned 18 I started traveling back and I was involved and I had a big import export company during the craziest years during ' 8990 9192 93 and then I built such massive relationships that over the years I've do business in Ukraine and with former you know Russia till till actually I started getting involved in politics with Trump and that's why I even was able to be such a use to Trump or be such a you know problem to the world is because of all these contacts and because of my knowledge and one of the things that I understood very well that listen corruption is all over the world I where I was blinded is I thought we were not corrupt I thought that the United States didn't have the level of corruption that I obviously understood that we were involved with but at the time because I was blinded thinking that we were so honest and good I understood that listen there's corruption in Ukraine there's corruption in Russia there's corruption in Poland there's corrup there corruption all over the place but for us it's like a way of life like we understand that you know you get you go to the meat market you give the butcher a little extra dollar a couple of dollars he gives you a better piece of meat nobody thinks about bribing or but in the United States you don't do that you know it's not like you know you expect to go in there and the butcher to give you the best piece of meat and you're going to kick stand and scream at him so it's a it's a different way of life you know what I'm saying to you but I it's like the air you breathe or the water you correct so so I understood navigating it's going to be very difficult because it's very difficult there's I can't say there's anybody that's not not completely honest because you you have to to live in that world you have to be able to maneuver with every single side so there are everybody has skeletons everybody but there are more people that want to push towards democracy and end it and there's others that want to keep corrupting it and that's how I differentiate it so that's why it's very difficult to say oh this guy is pure and this guy because it's then you're getting into a war as soon as they start getting Appo information oh everybody's corrupt everybody's there so I break it down into people that the good and the evil so when I came down there I was under so blinded by the information that I was getting from the United States side because remember I was working with Trump the president of the United States my information was coming to me from the CIA from the Secret Service from the def state so the information that I was getting downloaded how could I believe that it's wrong so I was getting downloaded say that the ukrainians are corrupt that uh they're trying to because they're corrupt not because of whatever they're doing they're corrupt because of their relationship and their love for the DNC and because of their friendship with the clintons and and then you got to take a mind then you take a look at the 2016 election what happens all the Ukrainian from aaka Persia everybody was for Clinton even the Ukrainian Ambassador so Trump with all of that you implement and you understand you think okay so the current Administration is no good but where is it no good and this is where we where our idea came from is listen you can't stop the full Corruption of anybody in Ukraine but how we could manage it is by the US ambassador because what what a lot of Americans didn't understand is that the Ambassador plays a very key role in countries like that because of the respect because of the way even the people there manipulate between themselves be without even the Ambassador knowing him because of the relationships they have with the Ambassador it's a very you know spy counter spy type of game because you're dealing with big money power so our idea was Soros well we were told first that Soros and the Democrats implant implanted all of these ambassadors all over Eastern Europe to gain to control and this is the ambassadors are now and then we get guys like Yuri lenko coming on board saying that all of a sudden the Ambassador is telling him don't prosecute this guy don't do this guy so everything starts coming together so we're saying so to me my job was I coming into very you know uh crazy territories very dangerous territories because I'm just talking about on the outskirts of the political side but all of these players you have to understand are involved with all of these oligarchs they're involved with all kinds of criminality because I came in there in 200 when we first came in it was 2018 this was before the election penko was still president so we came right into the mix when penko timos shenko all of them were trying to regain power again it was such a crazy environment until all of a sudden zalinsky came out of nowhere nobody expected him yeah he was put in there he was put in there by uh what's his name uh um konski to take away from parka Ukrainian yeah right that because it was all about they thought timoshenko so there was so much to this backstory that people there was so much go like you say kasablanca I'm talking about I mean you got imagine I'd be walking into Minister aov's office having a conversation with him where he would lock the windows he would put on this device that go and we'd have this conversation and then after I would leave then he would get in his car with his Entourage and drive over to the US Embassy meet with the US ambassador and download them on what we were talking about then call me afterwards and tell me about his meeting at the US ambass are you [ __ ] kidding me this is exactly what I'm talking about the minations the the double dealing the scheming it was everywhere here in kep during that period everywhere but but but the Americans are just as bad I mean it's not that the Ukraine was it was just the way that that system just the environment is different and there's the legacy of the Soviet Union yeah there's a legacy of the Soviet Union course I mean you know you understand your politics over there I mean you have so much infiltration inside your own politics that that that's why hurts Ukraine so much because of the funding you get from Russia like with the the you know Pro Western parties and whatever that were trying to you know infiltrate it so I mean look at the the end of the day it's not about corruption it's about good against evil you know what I'm saying all countries have their different ways of life you know if if the people that live there are okay with you know uh the police officer letting you go and maybe giving an extra $20 and they're okay with that and everybody loves it what what who are we to tell them how to live like you know what I'm saying that's not the corruption I'm talking about corruption on the highest levels that control the freedom the Liberty you know of people well and one of the things one of the things yeah and one of the things I think Putin has actually done and I don't know how long it's going to last but while corruption hasn't completely beg the the the fracturing of Ukrainian society and like the pursuit of different oligarchs against different oligarchs that has been tampered down during the war because there is this Comm common enemy in Russia still a massive problem yeah and and I'm going to just stop you there like for people to think that it's going to and it's not like the mafia American Mafia is never going to disappear it the oligarchs are not yes you might arrest coloi today and you might throw fear toout into Australia you might go you know get rid of Muk and all of this and yes and they'll be quiet but right now as we speak I promise you there is a new breed of those same guys that are being bred and are taking over they're going to start popping up younger and this it's just a way of life so I mean people have to stop just worrying about because that won't change your life what will change your life is who's running your country and the decisions he's going to make and the cabinet he puts in together I mean the other things it's like you know like I said yeah and and you know look along with this kind of uh uh corruption that um uh you know is so endemic here uh you get sent over because you you understand this and you kind of you understand the lay of the land here and so you know juliani sends you over here to you know work on in this corrupt system for the advantage of the Trump Administration also as you say with this idea that the DNC and Soros and the Deep State and all this stuff are doing all these so you're genuinely thinking that you're trying to help not only you know Ukraine but also America you're trying to do something absolutely remember good here I mean I've read your book and you describe it very clearly AB abely I mean if you thought you were doing something good oh absolutely if you even you if you even remember my tape conversation that was leaked between Trump and when I was telling him about when that whole Infamous you know get rid of the Ambassador tape but there was a lot more in that conversation that you know people have to understand where I was really explaining to Trump how important it was for him to make stand up for Ukraine against Russian aggression also at the time part of what we were doing was trying to cut off uh Ukraine's dependency on natural gas from Russia by setting by having more so the LG so we were always you know my whole objective was to try to bring Trump and Ukraine together thinking that once Trump loves Ukraine Russia's over with that's it it's done but the problem was it was there was forces internally in Ukraine and Russia they were also fighting against it do you understand what I'm saying to you and my my whole intention was when I came to Ukraine was not to try to figure out who's corrupt or not who's corrupt my whole intention and that's why I met with penko I met with zalinskis I met with L I met with timen I met with all of them and I told each and every one of them the same thing is like you have an opportunity right now to have a great relationship with the United States my whole goal was to make a marriage between Trump and them because I understood that if Trump I knew who Trump was that if Trump start standing behind the Ukraine that he will be that Russia it's it's his relationship with Russia will will start tampering do you understand but there was just too much big forcey yeah and as you describe it in your book which is a great read by the way and folks should get a copy of L's book Shadow diplomacy uh and you know there's a lot of mean on the bone there so we'll we'll talk talk in Broad strokes but you go you come over here thinking you're doing something good both for America and for Ukraine both of your your countries but you know absolutely um and you distinctly try and stay away from what you think are Russian agents you're really focused on corruption you're focused on trying to get out what you think is these Lefty sorus DNC Bad actors in Ukraine um but did you ever at the time and I recognized that during the time you were kind of like in the Trump spell but did you ever at any point yeah you were in The Cult um did you ever sense then or do you looking back on it now cuz you were focused on corruption you were focused on Ukraine and doing something good for Ukraine but looking back on it now do you ever think that maybe some strings are were being pulled out of you know uh out of Moscow with with your efforts because we'll talk about Julie in a moment you diverge well 100% but let me put it to you this way were did they try absolutely but well I was blessed because of I had so many relationships over the years and because my partner eigor also had such good relationships we were able to how how do you put it listen to all the sides and find the middle do you understand what I mean and we were able to see like so so we were able to see who those Russia like I knew who their cotch was like I didn't have because of even people that were on his own team that tried to get into good graces sold him out do you understand what I mean because it's just the way of life there where they where they were manipulated see these guys got into a guy named John Solomon in the United States John Solomon is a reporter for the hill he's very close uh friend of Donald Trump and now he was a very close friend Sean Hannity Fox Julian he was part of the BLT team what I didn't know then that I know now obviously was what the way they were using the way they were using me was basically so Solomon would come to me and say he has a source he wouldn't disclose it he would come to me Giuliani and Trump like to Army and say that he has sources that say for instance that uh there's a tape of uh Joe Biden accepting a $5 million bribe and then he say go out go to Ukraine and find that tape it's out there and we would go there and all of a sudden when we arrived there there would people be coming out the Woodworks telling us leading us on different Wild Goose chases to get that tape making by giving us paperwork showing us that it exists transcripts of it but never actually getting the actual tape or recording of it so and when I realized what was happening actually is now what I could tell you what was happening then back then I didn't know it I was on wild GES but his sources was dekat and telenko so dekat and telenko would give Solomon propaganda but Solomon couldn't spread it in the United States because you needed more coroporation the media wouldn't just pick up on his propaganda so sent me over there and because of my relationships with people like Yuri lenko penko avakov people that were on the that ran the country and had me have them validate that which they didn't and this is where the string became because they were so in their own positions to try to play the role of being on both sides for the Ukraine and also trying to help Trump be get what done so that's they would TRW the line so you're Seno would constantly come out and say uh yes Hunter Biden did something wrong and 2 minutes later he'd come out say but he did nothing wrong in Ukraine you know what I mean so and and that's where and and that's where you started getting it where I couldn't understand why how was but now I understand obviously that I was the tool that they use to actually validate get that information validated to the point where it broke through the mass media in America because they were trying because because you got to understand they were trying to do this since 20 5 2016 they were trying to get this Hunter Biden barisma stuff and deer they've been TR they just couldn't do it Kulik has been coming over here and they've been hiring lawyers and they been but they couldn't get the validation of the penos of the lenos of the people in power and no and no and no actual evidence no recording no correct correct right correct even the hard drive is highly sub the laptop from hell yeah this is how they do it this is how they do it yeah sorry go ahead no so yeah so it was an yeah go ahead it was an ingenious plan and that's they you know and I it was orchestrated obviously by the Russians which were pulling the strings which you know dear kot was you know leading there so you know what you said was 100% right the were being P they were fixed they were fixated in particular on Maria yanukovich the the the um US ambassador Ivan uh Ivanovich sorry I misspoke um uh uh you they're very much fixated on her and then ultimately you and this BLT Group which by the way we should clarify for those who don't know is this BLT group is kind of this organization of or this this grouping of of guys that had a common cause in trying to Aid it was it was basically Trump's center team it was Trump's when when Trump used to go on those rallies and say people say or people tell me we were those people it was our team it was made up of me Rudy Giuliani John Solomon the reporter I was telling you and two other Trump lawyers Victoria tonsing and Joe DEA that was the core of the team and then obviously we had you know every Congressman Senator you know at our will and call Fox News and stuff but we were the core that generated all the media that you saw all the news that came out all the decision making that happened everything that transpired from like 200 1718 till 2020 was run by The BLT team we are those people that Trump was talking about it conducting in essence a Russian information Warfare attack on the United States yeah ultimately that's what it it was and again they were fixated on Ambassador uh yovanovich um talk talk a little bit about why what that was like like this you were pursuing getting rid of her that was a a huge part uh was it because you thought that the that the ukrainians and the corrupt ukrainians that she was trying to crack down on that they definitely wanted to get rid of of her was it a quid was that the primary quidd pro quo do you think was getting rid of her in exchange for yeah go ahead yeah well well the very first yeah well the very first qu quot Pro was to get for her for penko when I had the three-hour meeting with penko for penko before zalinski was even on the map as for penko to come out and announce an investigation into the bidens and talk about badly about Maria Evanovich and then Trump would you know obviously support him during the race that was the first qu Pro quot which penko turned him down but the you have to understand what we realized one of the things I realized when I came to Ukraine and when I started dealing with lenko and penko and all them I realized that they were scared of the US ambassador it didn't matter who the US ambassador was I saw the way the system in place that that they the US ambassador was their connection to the White House the US ambassador was their con basically it's like what the US ambassador was like a mini president inside and had a lot of power so if the US ambassador was corrupt he could be doing whatever he wants and if the US ambassador was straight he could do so I understood that the US ambassador weighed a lot of power now at that point I was being told that the US ambassador was corrupt that she was corrupt for the clintons the bidens the Obamas that she was there to run uh you know working for George Soros and that she was corrupt but she was corrupt for the bad guys and she would let go after the good guys and let this you know bad guys do whatever they want so that's where we had the plan where I came up with the plans we get rid of the her and we Implement a trump loyalist somebody that will do what we tell him to do not to be corrupt but to be to you know go after the corruption to go after that's going to you know clean come in there and clean up that's why even the person that was supposed to be the US was Pete session Congressman Pete session from Texas you know he was going to be the guy that was going to come in and do that he's the one that wrote the letter to Pompeo about getting rid of her and stuff like so you know it was the plan we weren't going to go in we understood that you know I at least understood that you're not going to go clean corruption up by trying to put one guy in and instead of another because as soon as he gets the presidency that system is very corrupt payments flow from different places and he's either you got to be an angel and turn away and say no because it doesn't matter if you're the president if you're the attorney general or if you're taxation Minister Roman ner if you remember that guy it doesn't matter what position each position in all of those places have inbuilt uh T I mean money that comes them under the table for services they provide and then you know the good guys basically just take what it is and keep the system going Mo forward the bad guys want to exploit it and take it to a different level and that and that's a difference but the system's been in place forever and it's you're not going to change it you're not going to come in and get rid of everybody and everything in place it just doesn't happen over time maybe absolutely but it just doesn't happen so I understood that so what I understood is that if we put in the US ambassador that is not corrupt but loyal to America that it doesn't matter who's the president of Ukraine it doesn't matter who because they're going to be on their knees in front of the Ambassador because you know she of course at this time yeah at this time you're thinking that you know that Ambassador yovanovich is is corrupt in terms of being DNC and Soros you're trying to get Pete Sessions in here who you don't think is corrupt corrupt but of course now in retrospect obviously totally corrupt um it's like it's this thing that the Russians do and it's so hard for me to explain to an American audience and it's so that's why I love talking to guys like you who get this what Russia does in some ways and it's crucial to their efforts is you look at the same fact but you it's like that dress a meme a few years ago or a few whatever it was where you look at some look at it and they see it's gray some look at it and see it's blue you look at cup half empty you know yeah it's it's a matter of perspective and they're very very good they're very very good at manipulating westerners who aren't acclimatized to this kind of mind [ __ ] yeah because it's because it's easy for them because we're naive because we they live in that world we don't we think that it's crazy in the most the regular American if you tell them the word bribe they'll think oh my like are you what's it called so they understand and they know how to hit those points and say but what if see their whole tactic is not to try they con they just put that doubt and they let you go down the rabbit hole yourself and they just give you the the places to go they just point you that's the the way there're like but just think about it for what if you're telling me that Ukraine's not corrupt and then you start thinking well you know they do have corruption and you start looking Ukraine corruption next thing you know you're look and you go down there Rabbi home and I promise you it's not that difficult to think that Ukraine all of them are corrupt all of them are fascists and Nazis because there's enough propaganda out there if you want to read it to tell you that especially with social media and the internet nowadays you know yeah and the Ambassador isn't really pursuing the state Department's interests or or or uh you know uh Vice President Biden isn't actually doing something on that basically the entire International Community wants which is to get rid of prosecutor shoken you know but you can turn that into oh no he's doing it to protect his son Hunter and and it's manipulating your perception of reality it's one they're masters of manipulating perception of reality but hunter Biden and gave him a a a gift of all gifts I'm not blaming Hunter you know he was used he was abused he had his own problems there was a lot but what I'm saying to you is they couldn't even believe that they had that you understand saying that's why they were going crazy for so many years how they couldn't use it to exploit that until until this do you understand I'm saying so yeah because you have to understand for an American the perception of what Hunter Biden did is so bad and that's why we see what we see that's why we have impeachments going on for without any evidence because the perception is so bad that it looks like well if there was Smoke there had to be fire no they didn't have to be fire there could have been a smoke machine there could have been a guy sitting there blowing in the to it's it's it's perception it doesn't mean it's like magic just because I ripped it doesn't mean that's how it happened there's a explanation if you are and that's the problem and they're the masters of using that I mean just think about uh uh what they did in 2006 they had a whole city of troll Farm set up to be able to what's it called uh use you know the internet and everything to interfere in our elections just think about what they're going to do this year with now ai technology we haven't even gotten there Phil I mean no but I mean I mean yeah no you know I mean we also know that they were abled back in 2016 to do things like microt Target people because they were getting Oppo Oppo research from Paul manord you know so all of this I mean it's it's just think about it Paul manord is back in the Trump campaign he's on the he's on the floor of the Republic he's on the floor of the Republican convention walking around a free man the man is a a criminal traitor to his nation in my opinion uh anyhow but so look there's um there's there's this other aspect to what you're talking about here with what they wanted to believe the guys like Giuliani or the guys that you know the the guys that were convinced that there was this nefarious Biden sorus you know Clinton uh stuff going on here what I found so interesting in your book uh is that you they are repeatedly told no no there was no corruption no by Hunter Biden didn't do anything wrong he was in essence a a lone guarantor because you know moscow's oligarchs would Rob this place by and then when they get you know almost caught they piss off back to Russia ay with the name Biden can't just disappear so he's a lone guur in in in no small part and they're they keep getting told he didn't do anything wrong he didn't do anything wrong he didn't and they just compartmentalize it and they're like no is it because they were so hellbent on finding something on binding that they could weaponize and use or do you think they did actually buy Into The Narrative of like Soros and Clinton combination was self-filling or well is it comination of all of those I mean you got to understand these people truly believe the Deep State I mean they truly believe Sorrows by because you have to understand they're corrupt so they Pro they think that the other side does the same thing they do if we're going to do it they and and and and to be all fair the other side is also corrupt I'm not here saying that only Republicans are corrupt and it's only jul I mean there's a lot of bad guys on on the other side and this side right but it's not about the left or the right right now it's not about it's about Donald Trump because none of them are as bad as he is you I'm saying to you so it's the perception of democracy or autocracy that's the choice I we're looking at I mean that's the choice we have right now and that so all of that is like it's IR relevant I mean you have to concentrate on the individual and and also you know a lot of things concentrate on what he's doing what he's saying just think about what normal individual that had even like an of of thought of empathy towards what's going on in Ukraine would have Victor Orbin come to meet with them constantly in Mar Lago I mean I mean I see a lot of people in America don't realize it because they're looking at Victor Orbin as a leader of another country meaning another country they understand Victor orb is a thug he's Putin's guy these guys met up sat down like me you are talking right now they sat down before and Putin said when you meet Trump tell them this this this this this this this now Victor Orbin didn't come and say puin said this this this Victor or is a master he came in and explained to him listen I know puin for so many long I know and and if you do this this this this he'll think this like and by the way I spoke to him yesterday he sends his hello for Donald Trump he peed his pants that's it Putin says hello yeah so it's it's I've been to so many of those Strate you know meetings and that's what I'm saying to you and then you have him come back again you know two weeks later you know why is Victor Orbin all of a sudden flying back and forth to Mara Lago I mean just you just realize it I mean it's they do it out in the open and then and they don't even hide it because then he comes out and Victor Orban comes out and says Donald Trump told me he's gonna stop all way to Ukraine yeah we're running out of time here so I want to ask I want to make sure I get I was say I I was going to say Philip just because I I think it's important for your audience I think we have lots of that if you want we could do a part two I could come by and so whatever we don't f I I would love I would love so instead of you rushing you know I would love to do that LE and and and and and maybe as we get you've got a documentary series or a documentary coming out in September maybe a little bit closer to that we can pick up some other important topics and and really really dig underneath and see where the termites are but while I've got you now let me you know try and wrap this up because you've got a heart out here I'm just going to go with a couple of quick questions um and it's the one question I need to ask you is Giuliani at one point you're busy doing your efforts with uh the the the various uh guys in in the Kev government you're importantly trying to get them to start a Biden uh investigation and there's the yvanovich issue that you're trying to do on their behalf at some point Giuliani diverts and he starts hanging out with guys that you are convinced are clearly Russian agents that they are they are pursuing Russia's interests and they're the the ones that are now starting to inform Giuliani uh and his his his mindset do you think he knew that he was directly talking with uh Russian agents who were pursuing Russian interests 100% so he knew and he didn't care no no 100 he didn't care because the way Giuliani looked at like it didn't matter it's like he would tell me I dealt with the Mobsters like I don't care who they are as long as I could get from them what I need you kind of do you understand what I'm saying he didn't care that he got a mobster to another mobster he didn't care that he was like that mobster but if that mobster gave him enough information that's how he looked at with he didn't care he would look at I don't care if he's Russian Japanese he's coming me he's giving me information on the bidens that's good enough for me you know what I'm saying to you I don't care if he's KGB I don't care you know and it's crazy to think about but that's the way he you know so he knew so start off with that not not only didn't he know because I told him but you also have to understand that when I was before I got arrested they were trying to infiltrate him they did not infiltrate him yet because while I was there I still as bad as we were doing it I still was buffering it until I got arrested because at that point telenko was trying to meet up with Rudy but I would keep cutting it off I would tell Rudy don't meet him then he TR jkat tried to come meet with him I would say no jkat is a KGB agent Kik I cut off because when Kulik started going all radical so I start and Giuliani mean have text messages where I'm telling him oh he would tell me this guy wants me I'd say remember this is who he is oh okay okay so he knew but when I got arrested even Giuliani and his own interview came out and said he goes when I lost love when he got arrested I had no one to turn to so he basically that's when he opened the floodgates and then he started dealing with them directly and the only people that went out to because lenko everybody that we were dealing with walked away because they had enough of juliani and I don't think it's just Giuliani I I think there are fellow Trav julani the all over I could and you're by the way thank you so much for your testimony in in in front of of the house in the house committee I really appreciate somebody who cares about this place and cares about what's happening with Russia's infiltration in America it was a wonderful moment especially you being able to turn directly to Peter sessions and say man I knew what you did you were working for the Russian uh intelligence uh military intelligence agency involved in a military intelligence attack on the United States that was a beautiful moment and I appreciate you for doing it thank you um so look the last thing I just want to quickly say is um you've got us a thing here in your book where you say um uh that uh you know if if Trump gets in uh we're looking at turning you know if you go to Russia you say I've been to Russia many times I'm paraphrasing here cuz for time um if you go outside of Moscow if you go to where the the the oppressed people of Russia are that's what Putin did to Russia Trump wants to do the same what would a Russian oligarchy look like in America and and let's wrap it up with a warning for Americans who might be watching I mean uh Russian oligarch in America would be Trump's Inner Circle I mean he would and that's why there's a project 2025 here I'm not going to go into it because it's a a long conversation to go into but what project 2025 is basically taking this country back 100 years what Trump wants to do he wants to take away women's rights he wants to take away uh uh you know immigration he wants us make America First meaning uh stop interfering and getting involved and cut off trade with China and other countries start only building in certainly but if you take a look at what all of that is that's the Soviet Union that was one when dur the Cold War and what happens only a certain part only the people that are in the circle that are loyal to the party until they're not and then they go to jail or get arrested or get killed but till they are they reap the rewards but that's like 10% of the country and but the other 90% lives outside the means live in rural areas where they don't have the same uh availabilities are the same and that's how America was that's how a lot of countries were and that's why we're such a great country now and that's why Putin is so angry what's going on in Ukraine because Ukraine what Ukraine did in the p in the past 10 15 years of becoming a democracy and and and and just growing out growing I mean just think about how Putin used to look at Ukraine where where you would have construction going up you would have you know restaurants economy growing tourism growing you know moving towards most of westernization meanwhile people in Russia were getting oppressed they were looking like they didn't have the yeah there were there were certain people that did have it but majority didn't and that's what Trump wants to bring back that's what his whole America First policy is is basically take America back a 100 years and uh mirror what you have in Russia you know your loyalty your loyal circle is going to get everything but you don't have to account to anybody you don't have to ask anybody you do what you want you're the dictator and the other 90% you know they have no choice you know you rule with the iron well we have to stop that we have to resist we have to resist Russian attacks they are attacks it's not just some milk toast lobbying we are under attack from Moscow we need to be aware of it so I appreciate you bringing the spotlight constantly to it people read uh L's book uh shout out diplomacy will uh maybe touch base with you in the in the run up to uh this documentary you've made with Rachel mattow production team uh Le parnis thank you for coming and speaking to us on the edge keep fighting the good fight we appreciate you we'll do what we can from Kiev but the same battle is is all around the world and we have to push back against Russia not least of which in Ukraine but also in America thanks again for speaking to us thank you Philip for having me and absolutely the fight has just begun and we will win and SL your Slava [Music]