Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debate - Tuesday, 23 Oct 2018

before we begin just kind of write members and witness to make sure the mobile phones a bit torn off please and today we're dealing with ship so it's Deborah dealing with a negation of which say the new chairperson des signes of tight especially in parity and we want to say it's a purpose of the meeting tsdf mr. heard and is approached in undertaking role as chairperson his vision for Tigers over the next number of years before we go I want to point to your attention witness a protected by absolute privilege and respected beverage to give to the committee however if you're directed by the committee deceased give me evidence relationship victim after you continue to do so you're in tightly wrapped going to qualify provision respective your evidence you are directors our only evidence connector but the serious part of this proceeding is to be given in your ass to respect upon which passes the effective we're possibly should not criticize may charge against the person events to binary situation make him or her identify evil members are reminded belongs time how many passes defective member should a comment on or criticize I'm a charge against either person outside the house or an official by name for such a way as to make him or her identifiable mister her you know ask you'd make an opening statement please good afternoon chairman Secretariat and elected representatives I welcome the opportunity to present this opening statements the committee and first of all particularly in the fact that I'd been newly elected chairman of the authority I welcome the opportunity to meet with you on a personal basis even though I have met many of you on personal basis in the past I think to be fair to say that over the last 12 months from a forming point of view and indeed the industry we've witnessed soothed most a severe weather events in living memory but what is important estate is that task has been centrally involved in supporting farmers through its lead role in the and through the interagency father group that was established by Minister Creed there is a possibility even though we may hate to admit it that weather events like this will occur in the future and tag this of course is very conscious of the need to support the sector in the mitigation of greenhouse gases and its adaptation of assignment change the focus will be a key priority for the organization in future to insurance sustainability I think it's important to state that takest has been in existence now with four years under its present name and the whole remit is to conduct research in the area of agricultural production from a food processing perspective but also to provide and deliver advisory and education for its farmers our mission stay statement of course is very clear to provide and to be an independent provider of science-based innovation in the agri-food sector and indeed the wider bio Economic Area to underpin profitability comparative and competitiveness and sustainability what is important to state from a tag disc a budget perspective and my my own children's say say to me also often dad you're always talking about money so excuse me for embarking on that area again in relation to tag this budget this cotton budget is 180 some millon which is unique as a non commercial body and having a relatively large proportion of what we regard as grant-in-aid income which last year amounted to 56 million euro this non grant-in-aid income comprises of a tag disc is successful in competing for quite a number of contracts in relation to the area of research and advisory funds both at national and EU level that 56mm is also made up of advisory and educational fees also from the income in relation to his farm profits industry levies and God or the professional levies so in short agus receives a further 125 million of subvention from the department of agriculture and food of which 43 men effectively is a pension fund that is allocated so in short that 43 million is effectively money and money out so in short I would say that our income is made up of north of 80 million directly direct subvention from the department of agriculture and food and a further 56 million last year which would have been fee earned income and that has they are to fund or capital expenditure expenditure program tigers has a staff of somewhere in the region of twelve hundred full-time staff which includes contract people and in addition to that tigers has about 280 Walsh fellows comprising of 260 people who are studying a PhD level and a further 20 doing a master's program and those people are hugely important from the point of view of fear in the whole research and advisory field for the future on the ground which attacked us this probably best known for would be its advisory offices it has 51 advisory offices and that number of offices would have been significantly higher I think there would have been somewhere in the high 80s prior to my in a number of years back in addition to that we have seven agricultural colleges four of which are owned by tigers plus a further three which are privately owned colleges but there are submitted by Tigers and in addition to that we have seven research centers covering University of Agra and food related issues it would have six operational programs that are hugely important from both from a research advisory and training perspective and in short rule number one would be animal grassland and research and innovation then we have full research 3/4 you won't which would be quite small would be crops environment and land use rural economy and development and on the ground we have advisory and the associated walk there is associated with that I one thing that is hugely important for our young farmers would be the whole area of education and training just to briefly deal with all of those Tagg disks aim of course is to drive productivity in the area of Geary beef sheep and pigs sector without compromising sustainability and that is something that I would like to underline and underpin despite the very difficult year we've had you know 2018 you know the food harvest target to increase milk production by 50% opted in the year 2020 that is likely to be met this year and I think that is something that would have to be seen as being very positive there are two central pillars to tagless ruminant livestock area and that is the whole area of genetics and grassland improvement and only within the last two weeks cactus recently embraced the potential of digital technologies to transform pasture based agriculture through the recent launch of a female an investment program called Vista milk I think what is hugely important and that was that it is something that is co funded by the Department of Agriculture Science Foundation Ireland and indeed the industry participants in the area of Dragon culture and that cohesive tripartite involvement is something that is hugely important as I see it in relation to food food is obviously at the hub of what we do because there is little point in producing food we need to process it but what is hugely important is to add value and in that area as I c4 is hugely important is Tagus to its moorpark technologies and innovation which is where Tiger scat is 51% stake holder invested in the very recent past or our investing right now 10 million and more practically limited and we've also afford the 10 million earmarked in the whole area of food technology hub which will be based at more part enfermo as well only within the last week the minister opened prepared consumer food center at Ashton and that is something that are there very much to get the industry up and running in to break the tissue but it is something that we should be doing anyway Briggs it or door breaks it because it is all about having adding value to the food chain in in addition to us we have received nearly three million from inter President to establish BIA innovation facility at the RIT campus and this facility is there to support you know small and artisan food food producers in that area know the rarity of activity will be the whole area of crop environment and land use and you were all well aware of the much publicized document the ambition for food food wise agriculture 2025 to ensure that that delivery can be achieved was in terms of sustainability in both economic and environmental terms key to achieving these objectives would be the re W of our efforts in the diverting the development of better varieties in the whole crop area and indeed crops are resistant in the whole area of pesticides in as various agro chemicals will be withdrawn the promotion in collaboration with the Department of sustainable forestry expansion I believe is something that is hugely important for the future as we deal with the whole area of climate change there is something that is particularly important where we include native woodlands on dairy farms in particular as we deal with the growth of dairy farms within the context of the whole climate change environment rural economy is an important area to ensure the rural economy a program which is focused make sure that we have a sustainable agriculture in the broader sense but also quantifying the costs of climate change mitigation and also the modeling of the economic impact on greg's if scenarios and take into account the viability of small farms and devising and tracking indicators of sustainability and one thing I'll be very conscious of was that you know agriculture and farms is very much a broadchurch we need you if you excuse the term we need to be very conscious of our small farms as well from the point of view of the sustainability of Rhode Island in relation to the Advisory area tagless provides an advisory of service to its 44,000 pain signs but information to our hundred and forty thousand farmers to believe through the length and breadth of Ireland in relation to our staff that's interlinking with those on a daily or weekly basis as is required we have twenty two hundred and forty Advisory personality 87 are allocated to or eighteen thousand dairy farmers 131 are allocated to dry stock and the environment but they are primarily beef farmers an 11-2 tillage obviously primarily in the tillage growing area TSK has a most work very closely with boar beer and implementing its origin green at farm level to us unique carbon navigator program I wouldn't that is important to point out here the Tagus has recently begun collaboration with local authorities and the cooperatives primarily was a dairy processors on a major program to provide free water quality and program free water quality improvement advisory service for farmers and maybe the name is a bit of a tongue twisters is called agricultural sustainability support and advisory program or in short ASAP but I think what is important there is that it is a free educational program that is there working collaboration with local authorities our primarily or dairy processors to ensure that water quality is as it should on ought to be in relation to education which is something that is hugely important because farming without attracting younger young highly qualified people is going over and I think that education program is at the hub of a taggers gaze and is at the hub of the future of Agriculture in 2017 more than 7,000 learners participated in taggers school leaver programs for the repeats through adult education our taggers linked higher educational courses we are now implementing three major initiatives swimming from the recent review of the program which is called extension of education pathway and that includes apprenticeships promotion of teaching and learning practices and the development of a continuous professional development courses aimed primarily at farm at farmers excuse me chairman and deputies and Senators for I'm chairman only a wet week so to speak but nevertheless there are areas of concerns that I am concerned about from a Tagus point of view and again excuse me for talking about money with her for a start but one thing I certainly would like the flag I think there are three areas that would like to bring to you this afternoon first of all in relation to capital requirements in the absence of access to borrowing facilities had faces significant challenges in funding its working capital requirements I certainly don't want to sound the Tagus should be given a checkbook you know and right away willy-nilly but I am conscious of the fact that it doesn't have access with a to overdraw facilities or indeed any baran facility at all to formed its it's research and educational infrastructure and I think in the past it could be fair to say that a lot of the capital expenditure was funded either through the sale of assets and you know we cannot keep selling fields forever or through once off special capital grants from government and I believe neither of those are you know satisfactory from the point of view of the delivery of our objectives in the longer term I am conscious of the fact and I want to make it very clear the Tagus should live within split fiscal policies but not having the capacity to borrow money for even short-term purposes is an impediment for the development of Agriculture and for the delivery of our objectives in relation to recruitment which is another hobby horse of mine I believe the catalyst is an outstanding I believe and I believe that you share that with me tag list is not standing organization it is a brand but a brand is only as good as the people that are there to leaders and I believe we're recognized globally as being an outstanding independent and recognized Agricultural Research entity which delivers research for indeed per se or farmers or full researchers of food pre-processors only to the government agencies as well but what is an issue for us is that we are facing severe challenges in recruiting and retaining high caliber stuff and we don't want again an open checkbook through to anybody at any figure but I think the issue that we have is particularly in the area of the very very low starting salaries which we are obliged to offer young highly qualified researchers in particular and I believe a slight tweaking of that entry level through various recognition of the qualifications and the work experience they have I believe would be of enormous we say exactly she was there in other area and I touched on it earlier on would be our whole educational program we have at the present time a waiting list with difficulty in facilitating the large number of students that are on waiting list for both part-time and distance learning courses unless we are unable to continue to recruit contract teaching staff I do appreciate that we have had that facility in the past and we certainly would welcome that that facility would be a four it was in the future as well but very clearly education is something that is hugely important it was from a tag this point of view but we need the appropriate funding to do it and the reason I'm saying that is twofold successive governments have been hugely supportive to agriculture from the point of view of the transfer of farmers from a farm from one generation to the next aid from the point of view of stamp duty secondly from the point of view of the very generous capital tax allowances that are available in addition to that we have a grant program that's available at the moment which offers a significant extra grant allocation team qualified farmers where they make investment on their farm whether it be building new milking parlor or making their farms more sustainable but we need farmers which is only right and proper that have the appropriate young farmers that have the appropriate level of Ag of agricultural education to facilitate that and it is in that context that I think it is so important that we accelerate our educational program for our young farmers to avail of the important facilities and schemes that you have put in place for them so with that thank you chairman you know last members Dipendra was first indicate and Senator Lombard mr. Lee and professor Boyd I'm here today I wish you very well in your role as chairperson in Goma chairperson it's an exciting time and yet a challenging time to be coming into the role in terms of Chagas and I know it was hopefully in the various programs and things that in terms of the 56 million that's non grant-in-aid income where did that mostly derive from what what organizations is it from research projects that are undertaken by Chavez or in collaboration with the dairy cooperatives or where is it and I think you're also involved in the agricultural farm down there I raised couple issues of Ovid in the winter the new winter system bellman down in the Kenny Terra during the last month of a result out or father out winter enough of dairy cattle dairy cows now I'm I have a concern about - and I might be straight honest and indeed in recent weeks have been attacked again by people who have concerns about and particularly in the context of which you very rightly and acutely identified as time and change issues and was the objective and obvious power to research that at least collaboration with the was doing with the co-op's indignation and that and it's it's it's it's might be meritorious at the beginning but because of changes in and then came in the - and because we're somewhat different than use either than other destice where this has been adopted you know I was getting all about number of cattle lost I'd like to see the numbers that they were actually lost and they could see the tags of all those animals been available in terms of losses because some of the information I got that was was worried and so I would I mean you're you're the research body you know part of the arm of the state and making sure this all is done that can be done in this context so would hope that reassurance in that regard that what occurred last february march toward that particular unusual despair they have to admit but nevertheless know that we're aware of us we must be in its anticipatory mood and precautionary mort so it's insured that's not doesn't happen again and anonymous would not be lived in that better position and that won't come new to press of oil and BS this this in this committee and it's just it's just ensuring that we do everything we can I'm not saying that anybody who does I think deliberate writing is just the situation that arose and I want to complement I mean I come from this end of the spectrum and indeed some of my colleagues and Chagas are no con the end of the road and want to be part of the 43 million rather than part of the UN at the other end where you want for your know focusing on rightly so and the vista milk program is an excellent and i think i think we see benefits from - about hopefully again from our posture beasts and agriculture and grassland based on agriculture and the potential there and the seven fight disease and i think that would be good even in terms of the developments in terms of infant formula market which we have a significant and disproportionate positive share often and well don't everybody didn't wanted us including yourselves and more practices he still to define garrett off of significant technological developments and medical course grange I can't but knock knowledge grades and suppose it's New York host facility Senator Danny the work and and in the beef and sector and the trace Dark Sector Tina very glad to see one of our premier world wanted finest foot purse probably won top ten in the country is know they're doing donors research and doctors and John Heslin has won one of your people so next in person's looking forward to his opus in due course and reading us and in this regard the 2025 this might be a question even not for you but me for professor Boyd are we you know in the context of Bragg's it and everything else could you give me a broad outline and I know it's not fair because no one knows suppose insofar as your expertise in this area how do you see Oh spittin in as assuming probably we're after soon the best-case scenario or prepare for the worst so in the worst case scenario how would that hit the targets the heroic Lane the very ambitious targets are rotating in foodways 2025 in that regard and I noticed and the lady to clas and it's a great to see ladies with the no clitoris to resolve is a close relationship even at local level an oven Westmead and nanny event I was always there but no you have a kind of a formalized program in terms and proven or water quality and everything that when working together in a collaborative in a cooperative way which with what the local authority and the farm organizations are indeed yourselves I think we can make it a significant debt and irrigation at that because I have to come to the education because this is this is where it's at you know how money at or seven thousand learners are people who actually are going back to the home farms you know because I mean a lot of people you know I mean some people do it and thankfully do it because to be employed by kiri foods and playboy we need them all there to be available in in this regard it's important that they're available for money or going back and I know as I'm delighted to see one the CPD for farmers it'll be interesting to see that that's a novel concept but it is important because important to farmers who were middle-aged and advanced and get an opportunity to participate in ongoing professional development and that's free in that regard so I'm pleased about that the capital requirements I mean how much land having heavy in your disposal for those impact and upon your core key objectives in terms of research and development and advisory services which are keyed here how much more land is available for that because in the absence of the sale of capital assets such as land or direct capital subvention from by the way of direct vote from the government departments budget from the government how else he going to raise money I think that's the key question you know I mean your objectives they don't cease to be a lot of you innovations terrible says the way he lists for young people is a cause of concern I think it's it's better note and it was but yet I mean you have done your best but I see you have identified the reasons worse so I suppose that's a good start normally we be query new as to the reasons but to mean you're saying that you don't have enough people you're saying that they are the salary and offer to young qualified researchers a particular is inadequate and I'd probably probably agree with that because I know human people who can make the her income anon done differently but it surely have you brought this tension of government because they see what's happening now is through saving congruence between government policy which is accelerated intergenerational transfers and where we have less than one percent of agricultural land becoming available in the market every year per annum for is it for somebody tear somebody new to enter it's very difficult to enter that's the problem it's very different a driver young person Frank Radice more in the way up ready to take on 150 acres I want to see what I queried speak to the person who have a possibility of Lisa nest so there are young people out there and but the problem is we are actually here advocating as a committee and we did this the stamp schuhe and the capital acquisitions inheritance taxes and all it - absolutely tremendous great policies but if there's if it can't function vision authority of the age limits and everything gets them you can't get the young people true it is a logjam at your end and an inability facilitate them and what you're saying is we need additional resources to ensure that was online and distance education courses and indeed direct courses let them be in forever they are willing Garrett buddy here's some character so wherever it is that they'll be made available right or whatever that they be made a core team today or be made available because that critical so I support your efforts in that regard I think we will have to tackle this head-on probably with the Minister on your behalf to ensure that additional resources made available to us and I see no séjour you'll need full-tang people in those roles economy part-time Bologna beef steak in plaster solution you need full-time people because otherwise you cure the problem now and then it'll humiliate again so I bought you wish you well in your role as chair person would professor boy it was a lot of time there and I know I know that you do a good job and your role is actually pivotal to ensuring the viagra culture is in a position to meet the challenges and opportunities or delay ahead Rob our next phase of course welcome to chair and post structure Tigers gist meeting thanks very very important that we as a committee can discuss with you were supposed from the leading organizations their cultural community your vision for their cultural community in a very very challenging time whether it's weather issues are words the actual each both of the fireman community which is probably a bigger issue for us in generations that we really need to discuss and if I could just ask about th profile of the actual organization itself Tagish and how do you feel that actually age profile is going to go forward next coming years you staged this new your address that there was an issue with funding printing graduates burning in people at t level itself my understanding of the organization from my point of view is that he have a very very good very solid core of advisors putting our of a certain demographic in the are of a certain age do you have a fear that that issue was called to fail a bit like the farming issue itself that you will have a situation in 5-10 years time that you'll have an age profile of retirements and your lack of bringing people and genocide could be an issue for you going forward so maybe you might explain to us the actual age poor Flavia organization and how do you see your actual plans going forward regarding the organizational tightest and I suppose age profile affair means probably the biggest issue in so many ways I think to study produce fears course there's more parents over 82 number talk to fight and how we deal with that will be true education and maybe you must expand on what your long-term plans to actually improve the edges education offering that is available for the actual agricultural community of whatever age or whatever gender itself and you might elaborate if you could and the success or some people might say to fail success of things like discussion groups member will myself very very successful but some would claim that the new regime with discussion groups haven't quite taken off that in many ways we're having discussion groups outside of the department LED scheme and has been run by Tiger still both in a kind of ad hoc way because we look at trading and farmers I'm training of the knowledge transfer discussion groups is probably the key tool that will be used going forward and also you might ask you to elaborate on the apprenticeships and the training in you know of section five or fives and sixes and initiative has materialized my part world and I suppose it's could be any part world is how trained our host farmers what is the audit system that we are providing free expose farmers do we have legacy who was farmers have been there for generations and had to move with the systems and have you reviewed that in other words like the horse farmers going forward we they all have to measure grass will you all have the ability to measure grass because if it all have bass or other technologies how then can you beat the Minter that is required for these actual young recruits that are going to be a major part right across ministry so particularly you might elaborate on the final issue of how we're going to ensure that the horse farmers have the ability to mentor their actual trainees are coming aboard so the entire so community can gain from thank you tell her deputy Carla I just like to welcome the new chairman of tigers and aquatic species chief is echo jeribai oh I suppose probably you might be do the greatest challenge faces at the moment as is is climate change and the targets and the restrictions that climate change world will pause on us and how you know as an industry that we're going to aim to be able to adapt to those and I just like to you know the chairman to you know to give an outline of what Tigers clans are at the sustainability of food production I think is is going to be the by world for the next one and annex for the next decade and we are see ask we see already and some of our continental colleagues have an M course restrictions put on them as we gas production of phosphorus and you know if it does it's definitely a new course a new course are being placed on them and as implications for us but under you know and the pig industry side and particularly under under dairy side just under staffed society things is a recruitment embark on place in the moment and it's just you know is that still in place would Tigers and could you expand on that please chairman and I suppose you know three to four years after the abolition of courses and you know it's been fairly my first and he said that you know production has expanded rapidly and exposed expansion as the expansion I suppose has been very rapid unfortunately I don't think the profits as mashed whooshes but you know there's an infernal a lot of forum but you know our green image and our green image is paramount paramount for sales and all our sectors and I think you know that we have to be careful was expansion that we don't you lose that green image and you know labor and labor shortages I spoke to a you know senator Lombardi referred to discussion groups and I spoke to his discussion group there a couple of weeks ago and we have time 10 o'clock at night him don't virtually all asleep in her chair and born I was after just three or four years of devilish the courses it's become an issue out there with dairy farmers and labor shortages and I suppose the profitability of the sector and the pressure that's on on cash flow but even they have an ability of qualified labor but you know we were I was taught about New Zealand and the born I would you know the dairy farmers experienced their first I see as my may all know callous haters you know young fellows are going to become all men very very fast and it's going to be a huge issue and I suppose you know what I had another cap on we talked about what was the they must fight the most appropriate or what was the most economic unit for a one manual or some any cows that was to Milly and in my view that has has shot upwards and to a tool to a stage where it is where it might be it might be the multi cows that he wants to make a viable income for Wallace's amount of what he can do is a different is a different equation so I just like to koala Tigers is view well now what is the there they was it what is the you know the most optimum figure of cows as a one-man unit could handle a lot of World War II what he can't what he can care so was and watch what you know what should deliver a reasonable income forum and just you know the Bioeconomy and it links into climate change and the whole motor research has been done there what's Tigers impulse into that whole whole bio economy as a committee we went out to meet Sam profound the vessel Kevin O'Connor and his colleagues in UCD there with Julian on June time and those huge valuable research going on there and there was an open day in in Maschine last Friday and you know the strikes has been made in that area and make him food more sustainable what you know has Tigers is Tigers who knows his Tigers feeding into that research or have you neem put into us and I suppose you know I was awful in the research center in Moore Park and you know they walked almost on there I suppose in developing products for the markers and you know you know I have median or number of years but I presumed that work is going on a pair but I think the Bioeconomy and that you know that faculty in UCD is Tigers Tigers Linkedin - - and I suppose a lot of thing as regards you know we're training young farmers and deputy Penrose as to many many young farmers that you're trained now going back to your family farms the availability of land for younger farmers and a lot our ability to get access tools and you know they we have allow for different schemes in place but you know I definitely see that does large and larger units of land being leased and I think it's making this untenable for younger farmers fear to take them down our teams compete with larger commercial outfits and you know if we don't do something to give younger farmers acts very ability to learn and access to land we can have the best education young farmers in the business but it'll hit get access to land you know they're definitely want to achieve their potential and it's definitely an issue in my pants the country anyway land these prices have shuttle because land is been leased in large or larger blocks and it's making it harder for young farmers he did not virtually impossible and you know the only thing the banks and attitude and our availability of credit and I saw you know the ones that don't need us are they able to get access to low-cost credit and the man to start enough and does need a helping hand he might get acquitted but he's getting at a very high cost and putting a huge body's invest and his investment you know and his investment plans so you know I've Tigers any views about you know what we should do as against I suppose therefore the access to land and the access to credit for those younger farmers as well thank Stephanie we'll take the rest of the questions for us that's okay with deputy McConnell always next is mr. Hardy here I wish him well and his term as chairman and also welcome CEO Jerry Boyle here today as well and just a few questions which you might comment on mr. Hurley first of all and take up the point the initial point deputy kaha made as well as well in relation to the climate change challenge and the foodways 2025 targets administered just your further further perspective from you in relation to the the juxtaposition of both love the Tigers versus actually the targets we have for climate change as well and how you see that evolving over over the coming period you mentioned in your presentation in relation to the difficulty in terms of recruiting staff and the need to have additional flexibility and capacity to employ teaching staff as well and the waiting lists and villain Chavez for part-time students and that's particularly common I know from returning all students in recent times where we have the for exceptional colleagues of this Bali Hays but there is there is part-time courses as well in the county and also particularly an issue in the west and the northwest in relation to waiting lists and I do think it is something that you need to be empowered to recruit further and just if you could elaborate further in relation to that and certainly I think the committee at a committee level here we should support the objective of actually trying to ensure that those did you you can recruit and indeed those waiting lists can be address there wouldn't be a significant waiting times for for young people who want to get into farming to do a course in relation to the fodder crisis which obviously Chagas have had a role in relation to monitoring over the last create a time certainly the last month has been quite positive in that regard in terms of trying to address the gap but I just be interested in your thoughts and your perspective in terms of the winter ahead and where chocos town at the moment was regard to that particular challenge in the months ahead and then finally as well a relation to the issue of advisors and the capacity that shoka's cars in relation to your advisor staff and certainly a common theme coming back from advisors is that they increasingly over recent years have had been involved and important by assisting farmers with applications and did participate in various programs and bps applications and returns and administration the extent that a lot of them are under pressure it was regard to actually offering farmers advice and being on the ground and and have interested in just your perspective in relation to that because ultimately our engagement farmers harvest will be with your adviser capacity and that's quite important and no one understanding as well there has been a growing growing growth in relation to private advisers and in in recent times coram Island except the pinger please I'd like to just take this opportunity it was fairly well as chairman of Chagas and worked it is ongoing apologies movies somebody's question that you repeat nuevas everybody student to question force just I would like to just ask Oscar in relation to climate change specifically and role the Chagos Flynn I said a lot of a lot of you just looks as quickly through the research that you do on the website not Aaron loves very early stage or it appears to be kind of early stage to find that the extent of the problems and I'm just wondering what climate change medication measures and rich that she became it and the future things we all know those that important that agriculture participates and whatever mitigation we can put in place that is very important that's going to be even more important in the years to come so I just like to hear your views just in relation to that and what you would actually see happen and maybe I'm wrong and looking and looking at the research that you're doing at the moment as the extent of it and maybe if you could expand on that for me I think it's very important and just in relation to ambient Chester than just your commentary and relation to the capital requirements of Chagas and how you would see that actually been met because I would be worried and I think I could be wrong but from readings between the lines and what I see they are you talking about maybe but private sector involvement or something they got there and I'd be worried in relation to the optics I think Charlie should have a an independent role and that is wonder what you see as high that's going to be addressed and looking for the solely at public sector addresses thank you sir please mr. Harley well in his new position and just a couple of questions just I suppose on the whole issue of climate change which has been referred to clearly when the whole concept of supporting agriculture cap was established going back number of decades ago it was about quality affordable traceable food and now we the farmers and agriculture has also got to take onboard environmental obligations and as we know more about science and I suppose the interaction of human beings with the environment a lot of talk has been about you know calling the National herd and extreme suggestions of veganism and all this sort of thing but I just like maybe to ground the debate a bit more and I think professor boy you've been pretty upfront about the situation and our climate change targets with agriculture and I suppose in many ways for farmers even though great strides were made since the early 1990s in reducing carbon emissions and we are leaders in in many respects the herd has increased and that's that's the the consequent difficulty but when I hear alternatives people talk about planting you know reducing the cattle stock in the country they talk about planting lands but at the end of the day we're talking about food and I don't hear too much about where we're going to get protein from or the suitability I never heard anybody say well let's plant a lot of beans here that people can eat or my understanding is it's a precarious endeavor especially for food in this country so you know I don't think a full picture has been established in relation to the fact that we produce or the full message isn't out there that we produce food in a carbon efficient manner and what are the alternatives I mean taking food from some country in the tropics that happens to grow beans or other protein food crops efficiently is also a carbon footprint and obviously there's also the issue that if we for some reason got out of beef some other country will move to fill that that gap and I just maybe there's there's some comments you can make in relation to that Professor Boyle as I say I think sometimes we lose sight in you know I suppose in some in some ways there's a lot of hysteria around climate change and I mean we just have to deal with us but we kind of crush people in the process is my view the other issue I wanted to ask you about is I know that Chavez has been very proactive in in as regards soil management and training farmers how to get to get the most out of soil and in particular maximizing grassland production but considered I suppose recent the last number of years and weather events I know we can call them extreme weather but weather seems to be all the more precarious I'm wondering do you actually chart at what point we cannot we can produce so much fodder we can produce so much grass and if we have stocking levels beyond that and this is aside from reducing carbon emissions at what point we can't actually feed our own animals and what is that point if you've done that or what what sort of studies are undertaken and just finally I had the pleasant experience last Friday night at being at a green cert awarding ceremony in mail and it was great to see all the people who turned out and their family and all the work does the the course participants put in and we're very proud rightly to receive their green shirts but it just struck me going forward and it's on the whole issue of land mobility how many people actually undertake farming courses with Chagas but don't have land or are hoping to get land or you know I'm not talking about maybe you know your dad is or your mom is going to leave your land but people who are a step removed and are just in the hope or how many are actually maybe doing the course and hope to get into the food industry in some area as opposed to going into farming just maybe a breakdown if you have those figures just to get a picture of you know and do you know how many people are actually waiting for land and actually how many people outside of a farming background all together undertake you know the green start course because I would strike me it's mainly you're from a farming tradition you do you you enter agriculture then thanks before I tell if it's March do you want to make a contribution yeah yeah before before I let you in just a resource where my members were doing today which the Chairman designation of tigers not specifically general Tigers matters as such we can have times back in at a later stage members through annual report which is obviously generate plenty of his question as well so just even bumped in from our stairs which sorry deputy thanks Jeff chairman first one best you know to and I just like to know your thoughts on say with likes to be tsunami scheme I would like to know your thoughts on the situation in relation to where your thoughts are going forward on say the stock enraged with the line of you see where beef is at the moment do we need your thoughts on the factory feed Lots do you think is to start in the market your thoughts on and at the moment Jurgis do a lot of research and they're very good issues and fairness and spoke to Gerry numerous times and they have cross hired the likes of FRS for different for doing glass sandesh down the road where the head and the men parked themselves to be quite honest emoticons the last people and should not be a situation where the lakes the ASEA or private planners could come together and tender for that do you think that there would be an opportunity and the question for this say ye obviously Chagas gets subsidized from the stage and look at Jerry would heard you down through the years the word getting it off and for research and for all the different programs that to put together push for anyone who used a carbon navigator or use the tape services from them in a private capacity you have to pay fees in if you were a planner I think your thoughts and that your thoughts on the widow and the forestry side of it there seems to be a big you know these figures coming out about willow on that at the moment and we know farmers on the ground in County Meath that have pull and have actually developed and said it's not effective I'd like to know your thoughts unless you're where do you stand in your views on the young farmer you know this is a new scheme being written for the young farmers at the moment and I'd like to know your thoughts on the cap and would you agree - we need to go back to the scenario and because of factory feedlots and america has been distorted especially in the beef sector your thoughts on the so clear heard how to make sure that it's saved and would you agree that we need an acre of green lands to keep ireland basically when we're selling ourselves abroad and we are we are a lot of our stock of grass bush there this questions been asked in europe to push a blunt at the moment about how we're rare than some of our beef stock and and would you agree that we need for every unit the we need a crew Greenland who were applying for the cap our Beach wander our nitrates scenario there were just a few questions that I have a feeling I know mr. Harkavy back to you and oh there's some fairly general questions that we may leave for another day when we're dispersant I desire a report that's okay but maybe you can address some of the points that were addressed to you directly I think first of all thank you all very much for those questions it's in the first instance double deal with you know you all mentioned the whole area of climate change and I think from my point of view and very much from the point of view over say from a taggers perspective as I see there you know the train has left the station there and I think you know farming for the future was from an image and from a sustainability point of view I think I'm a change is here I think we've got to embrace it and I think instead it was a course in the dark I think it is important we embrace it from a positive perspective and I think you know will one particular person who said queried whether or not we have to go say decrease talking figures and all of those who say to stay within the limits I would like to look at it from the point of view of I think from to ensure that agriculture is sustained blessing I would say from three pillars it has to be sustainable from a perspective of you know staying within the ambit of chamber change staying within the ambit of the overall sustainability and ability piece from that covers the whole area of water quality as well in the whole area of in fact of the environment but as well as that agriculture has to be sustainable from a profit profit margin perspective to ensure that we have Viper farm entities so I think to ensure all of that has first had the floor and I would say very much in the area of mitigation measures that we've put in place from the point of view of mitigating carbon emission to ensure that we have a vibrant ugly sector for the fuel for the future and that certainly is I suppose we said the big issue in the movement would be dairy sector I think it is important recognize and I come from a dairy background to recognize the dairy is the area to the most challenged and that area referred to of us at the high stocking densities and but what are we doing there first of all maybe the soft options what can we do with them and I would say there one could be the whole area met recording to make sure that we have and a likely that would be the whole area of EBI to ensure that we have profitable and highly performing with animals within the herd but equally far as important that we encourage more forestry within your farms particularly in the Deering area and also maybe looking at the whole area of replacement of fossil fuels fuels from an energy credit perspective I am conscious of an economist would say to the whole area of carbon emission that we are lumped in with three other areas the whole area of Energy residential transport practice from a grip on the view we've got to be responsible for areas that are within our ambition I'll obviously we see as possible that the truth big game changers if we were to make it very significant a reduction would be changing from the area of can to stabilized urea there is science-based Norwalk is being directed at the moment the other areas you know we all work in the area but spreading slurry by the slash plate system now we're moving to the area of and the injector system or maybe more recently we said the dribble bar brightly moving to the area of the splash trace moving to the area of the injector system what have you Jerry is there as well so I think we've got to be we've got to be positive and proactive and I believe we've got it combined with two areas we must to ensure the way of a vibrant agriculture and a vibrant sector the world feed off agriculture it is important that we achieve the growth targets that were set in food was 23 device Tiger's Claw lairs as a scientific independent researcher they look at the mitigating effects we can have a two-pronged approach each other we have a by-product but equally that we embrace carbon blended from a positive perspective slightly because that is something that is upon us your to ourselves and to the next generation as well many people would have raised the issue in relation to and just maybe we said to deal with him and the order that they were dealt with deputies her remember roles he just made the point in relation to first of all was at the Kilkenny farm just to explain to you that it is something it's the problem that will be very passionate about when I was chairman of the Glen deer of the Glen B group how was this first its first chairman I think it has three stakeholders I think it is important to remember the Tigers cousin has been the job there it is a research in today and if there are mistakes to be made on us is the research farm and the lessons to be learned there that they cannot be replicated by the water farming community today it has explained everything in detail what's happening in relation to turnout date the number of key love the restate my stress that are to be used to appreciate that was an issue there in relation to orange structure I say an air of concern in relation to the bad weather the snowy period we've had in early spring we have a committee here earlier in that regard report is being prepared and it will be should in the very near future okay so I think I would think I want to assure you that all of that hasn't the control airport has being prepared I will be read would be released in the very near future there was reference made to say to the whole area of the district center that was recently launched and that is important particularly for our young farmers the fact that we are in the digital age we need to communicate appropriately with our younger farmers in relation to education and I think that was actually cover by a number of people and I would have to be upfront to say to deputy Peck Oracle that we do appreciate the new specific area the waiting list is higher than it is in other areas and we are very conscious and focused on addressing that area but I am aware that the number on the waiting list is higher in your area than in other areas so it is important I want what front say that we do recognize that in relation to many of the questions that have been asked in relation to or 50 service 56 million of income I don't have but I think we will get back to you in relation we say too that we can we can deal with that that is obviously made up of whole combination of areas the important thing is that it is there and hopefully growing and I think we certainly will come back to you in that particular area we can deal with that hazel Robert even with the annual report definitely different yes and deputy Carol heat up with the area of was a time to change I think out of dealt with us and the whole area in your own area of Lachine you do know that we said Landy would be very involved in that area it deals with the whole area bio transformation I think it is a very important project where we said Landy Enterprise Ireland are involved in that and the whole area of science and development in relation to and many people would have covered the whole area of was a staff embargo and the need for was a stuff of the future and I think Senator lumbered you actually made you queried the whole area beside the age profile as well in relation to I suppose and that is the reason why we need to be conscious of it whether the number of the age profiler farms that was something we've always had and I think it is something that I think you know that is something that we cannot change but certainly encourage and have a program in place where we educate our uniforms or young farmers and ensure that they have the appropriate training to avail the very important stamp duties mitigation that the stamp duties that is there are also the very important benefit that is there from the point of view of land I think is called the the whole area of the capital are loans that are available in relation to land transfer that is something that is hugely important it is available and promoted by successive governments but equally from a tagless point of view we've got to make sure that we have the appropriate was a staff in place to make sure that our farmers have the appropriate was a green started facility to avail of that a query was asked in relation to part number of people who say get back we say to full-time farming I don't have that and I think that can actually be dealt with we can come back to that as well pressing for issues the important is that we don't have to have not everybody would have to be I will want to be a full-time farmer right and I think depending on the area we live in depending on the farm size I think it is one thing that is hugely important is that you know farmers living in rural Ireland whether they be full-time or part-time is what is usually important because by having people live in rural Ireland that is one thing that will ensure that we have a sustainable and a vibrant rural community and as chairman of Tagus and this is something that takest we are hugely conscious of whether it be if we don't have the farmers living in rural Ireland I think it is well recognised and very different in half oftentimes maybe from Atlanta point of view the figure that were always have been raised there for every one euro that's invested within the farm it generates for euro but in the wider economy so agriculture is something that is hugely important to put in the farm and need outside the farm gate as well deputy fitzmorris you mentioned the area of factory feedlots i think from a tagless point of view i think personal view i think you know whether i like it or not I'm wearing a tiger's hat today and we do not get involved with selecting policy issues of of that particular nature you did make the point about my personal view on Kappa Kappa something that is hugely important to us and for me personally I was aware that the cap payment I got a text on my mobile phone on the 16th of October they said that it was available in my bank account you can rest assured that I immediately checked my bank statement and it wasn't there check to check to begin at 12 o'clock it still wasn't there but the important thing was that it had arrived safe and sound at 9 o'clock the following morning so I think irrespective of signs of scale cap to something that is hugely important a hugely important from the point of view of the whole area of environmental behavior of farmers as well and make sure they're all of us as farmers farm within the code of practice as we ought to do and in relation to the software farm farmer but we should have one edge of our lifestyle current or not I think irrespective fun and all farmers offer I think you know depending on the countries we live in I think we have at the moment and what we call the nitrous derogation and that is something that is hugely important and I think that is something that is used important I think for the future of gearing in particular other farmers we say do not have to avail of that level of delegation because of the Lord stocky intensity and that is something that would be conscious of I think there there very many other questions I think and you know two areas you know that that I would see as being hugely important for I think we said me as chairman of Tagus wanting in very conscious of the that dairy farming is very much what I would call the engine of you know sustainable profitable agriculture and that is something that can you know sort can can spread out into other areas as well whether it be Jewish farmers assisting the dairy farmer in drawing out of the crop whether it be some of our existing beef farmers you know supporting or dairy farmers by way of heifer airing if the focus of cactus must be sustainable farming systems not everybody would want to get up in the morning and be house not sure they're right but equally they can't happen to the into the Deering sector from from the point of view of a sustainable future right field as far as important in relation to willow farming and I'm not exactly sure of that but I do know that many many schemes are driven by grants that are available from from bustles so I think I would have to kick for touch on the only city if you don't mind because there's no point that I want to throw I want to be speaking about some things that I do not know about but a few where is gearing is usually important one thing I am concerned about and I think that this needs to be concerned about it as well if we speak about the sustainability of the maximum number of farmers I think the low level of profitability of beef farming is an issue of concern and I think we need to be very conscious of it there is no point in having farmers we say I won't they all be hugely conscious of the father of five children myself where world tumors are gone farming a farmer that stays at home farming on a full-time basis that person must have the very same opportunity as earning a Bible earning a viable widely her own income as a siblings that would have gone on and have had the professional career in another sector so I think that is something there are some that Roby I would be very very conscious of education in farm is something that is hugely important at a ghost must keep abreast with a trend that has a reason why I'm so conscious of the we recruit the brightest and the best and endeavor to retain them we cannot retain all of them we live in a digital era and we need young people that are well kept above communicating with our younger farmers in particular because whether it be the young tax advisor they're the future of takest the young farmer is the future of Agriculture and things are changing farming practices are changing some one of you I think mentioned about in relation to the apprenticeship schemes that we're about to embrace what type of farmer will be there we need a farmer that is hi-spec embracing technology whether it be grass measurement whatever the case may be but equally interchange in a very important way with the MU Park researchers where that has actually fed into the apprenticeship scheme as well in relation to labor labor something that is hugely important on farms I think it was deputy Calhoun made the point and in relation to one-man units I think you know it's not for me to say a part of the appropriate number of animals or the number of cows for one person to operate oftentimes it is dictated by the level of barns on the farm no two farms are the same oftentimes it can be dictated by the level of farm for the deserts pulse walk your farm or not so no to those who are the same but one thing I'll be very conscious of is that labor and the availability of labor issues important particularly in an Irish context and I would say on our own particular farm where I would have spent many years has been chairman of gland ear and I didn't have or should I said we didn't have one of our old family farming at that particular time I was very fortunate that we had good stuff that were with us from Poland there were non Irish people and they're still with us today so non nationals went to Ireland sometimes that is hugely important because we are aware that was something to what had been mentioned blasting to me quite recently the building boomers both to get going again and that certainly will take with her people from the angry space as I did in the past so non non Irish workers are something that is that are hugely important but equally it is important that they be well paid when accommodated I was treated within the Agra sector to ensure that we have continuity of supply there through two points and the capital requirements issue and the issue of the father crisis Jordan dear of where we are at the moment that regard of the uncanny kind of update and the data that may be available as regards for fathers available to stay compared what was maybe in July things have improved considerably in the past number of months and even last me through some Father say if they would imagine yeah you know it's amazing what sorry that's wrong the line is an earlier in the year it's it's it's amazing it's amazing you know part of butter fine part of fines better weather will you you know and so very seriously that proud probably depends on areas and no to farms are the same but you know possibly the dryer air is you know and I live with a down south one of the dryer Aires and you know in my particular area and the you know appeasement that has happened you know with silage all of that area has been absolutely enormous so I've got out there in some areas that is still a deficit but it certainly has been and that is something that tag disc true it's you know during the the key period would have played a hugely important role meeting with farmer groups the budgeting and dealing with the issue so texts have been exceptionally proactive in that area in dealing with encouraging farmers getting them to do their appropriate measurements and dealing with the deficit so it some areas there is still a shortfall but in many areas I think a very you know acceptable back end certainly was a still that get enormous Lee in relation to the capital budget I suppose that is something that is I would be you know concerned coming from was at the private sector and you know tag list is unusual they're not having access to said to you know to additional funds or speech I'm not for a moment suggesting that Tigers should should should skip away from under the under they the ambit of you know strict and careful fiscal policy it shouldn't but having said that in the past we have been you know selling you know sites or selling farms that were no longer to say needed and they were there you know we take to fund some of our very important capital projects and I'm looking at an example with her right now we actually spoke about all of you spoke about education education I deal with the whole green star tissue is something that is hugely important I'm glad to say that in the past government gives us the green light to recruit in excess of party staff members to deal with that very pressing issue we obviously will be looking at a continuation of that and that is something that is hugely important to us to ensure that we can fulfill our educational needs to deal with whole area of research movement for a variety of reasons but you know not having access we say to an overdraft facility within the framework of strict fiscal governance is an impediment from the point of view of dealing with the objectives the wrongs and one of those very important objectives at the moment is the whole area of climate change that is they knew but I would call the new kid on the block we've got to operate within it I think rather than forcing the dark I think we've got to deal with it from a positive progressive positive and progressive perspective in dealing with the whole mitigating area but we need people appropriate scientists without Harry in a positive way as well so much mr. Hiroshi sorry is everything good good just ask about that money capital requirements it you were talking about how do you see it been resolved in so as it's only through the public eye I think I think my area today is we say to raise raise the issue with you it is something that I feel that is huge important and I would like to think you know that our or management team you know be as as chairman of the authority it's not for me to say to say it can be resolved by a B or C I think that has the road for we said the director on his team but the I was a coming from one side join us at the board and sat down was the key people with with with Professor Boyle and his team I think your blind person would identify that has been an issue you know you cannot have takest will have to be a progressive entity as well very much no different to a commercial entity that has to grow itself and has to be fit for purpose and that is certainly as a boutique is a very clear impediment for the future and of course couple with that as well is the area of the you know the issue in retaining in attracting and recruiting key people because takest is an outstanding organization but no different to any other entity it's only as good as the people that are there to lead at any particular time and in recruiting you know we've got to recruit really good people because they are the leaders of tomorrow and that it is an impediment you know the big chapter has there and I think that is something that can be treat without ground upload without without creating any issue because often times you recruit a key person for a key position and that person may be a leader for the future who may have you know completed their PhD or mayor work in the private sector and I think it is you know either appropriate or you know it makes no sense you we just simply cannot Hooten talented young people at a very low pay scale and i think you know a degree of tweaking can be done there oh don't get me involved in the area of unions or when overstepping theory management but if we are to attract the key people for the future the low entry level is not sustainable or inappropriate for the future I mean come on Eve and my question was right where you see that money coming from DC public as public money or DC it is private money I think I think we will come well I think I think there is an area that I will get professor boy on this team with Citi Field modified without cutting across as well I think we'll have the Tigers at our prevent professors they're from the same professor about is matigan here would work they already admitted a chairman ties in it and we will have Tigers back discussion of annual report before Christmas awareness and we'll have a bit more opportunities was professor O'Boyle have esteemed a particular day we can go into more detail mr. Garrett's Ottawa's issues to have been highlighting today and particular wedding to the capital requirement the staffing levels they have huge issues for the future I think that requires a different day I in my opinion has been you know very much from from the point of your public money because you know we can only get so much pressure from effectively we say contracts we when you know they've got to be funded as well so I will see very much we said from the point of view of public monies but today my role as chairman I was almost a bit apologetic as I said being in only wet week all right that you've identified that three be bold enough I think I would not be doing my role justice if I wasn't bored enough to identify was that the three key areas that I see that are an issue for the future and I would like you to take note of those and I've absolutely no doubt that we will be who say look at those areas and discussing with you in the role as deputies and Senators because I think you've got in your Ares you are the people on the ground as well you want a progressive and dynamic agriculture and an appropriate hag just was said to lead agriculture for the future so I would like to think that we're all joined at the hip in that area okay yeah no did your fear is that we can identify one we'll come back to discuss on your report as well as other issues and reports there but those three if we can highlight those three issues that alright and other questions that we finished before we finish up okay thank very much mr. Harvey a mr. white woman before us today like to wish you well in your new role and say you're only a wet week in the job course I'm sure we love money more when they ask to come in the job of next period of time and we look forward to engaging maturing them the regular pace is the years and months and years to come thank very much have come before us there Thank You chairman thus as we was his bet with suspend a meeting for the next couple of minutes on Twitter sniffs Cooper witnesses in before us thank very much you you for begin can remind members is preneur melt and witnesses to make sure the mobile phones are alphabets turned off please it's they were did them for engagement wish mr. Franklin who was a chairman des Cygnes of bortnik on this notorious Nations the card for you see is that for corner of this period of time before we began one prints your attention witnesses I pledge my absolute provision respective inscription committee where we have directed by the communities is giving evidence relation to fiction my how you continue to do so in tightly wrapped trying to qualify provision respective your evidence your directed as only evidence collected with the subject' mahabali's pertains to be given a new roster respect if I meant to participate over possibly should not criticize them a charge against any person or entity my name is this way to make him or her identify a book members are reminded of long time how mention participate that members should not comment on and criticize may charge against either person outside a house or an official either by an amateur to estimate him or a dent or identify but mr. Annan no ask to make your opening statement please and imitate questions from the members thank you chairman members thank you for the invitation to attend before you today as you're aware I was nominated chairman of the Irish crayon board on the 6th of September 2018 why miss Lister why perfection I'm currently the state solicitor for a Cork City I'm a fellow of the Chartered Institute of arbitrators and an accredited creditors mediator I've served as a vice chairman of the Employment Appeals Tribunal I'm a member of the panel of chairpersons of the mental health tribunals and I'm also a statutory arbitrator appointed pursuant to section 23 of the animal health and welfare for wine tuberculosis regulations 2015 I live in mallow and I'm from Carmel I've served as president of the North News Corp our association I've been president of the mallow Chamber of Commerce of the mallow Rotary Club and chairman of melodia and Malibu Club I remained chairman of the management committee of the melodia complex which I understand remains the largest g8 complex constructed outside of Dublin and my interest of greyhounds is primarily so my father Sean Owen and also from the fact that I come from Carmel which regards itself as the true form of the gray own industry in Ireland we were a traditional two-way own family which we raised in the local Carmel tract with very occasional trips further afield when Marissa's heartily I was a member of the syndicate that owned a number of greyhounds that raised in Cork and surely with very limited success I have served for the last three years as a member of the Irish great on board it's fair to say that the gray own industry has experienced challenging times and continues to do so but I'm satisfied that we are making progress greyhound racing has a long history and as part of the culture and social fabric of the entire community it is a strong rural base particularly associated with the farming community and it also enjoys strong support from the urban areas where our stadia are located the board prompted by this committee commissioned Jim power economics in 2017 to undertake an assessment of the financial and economic impact of the Irish crown industry this study was a follow-up to previous assessment undertaken by the same group in April 2011 the published report demonstrates that while there has been a doubt our downturn in the overall industry since 2011 the rayon industry remains a very significant and strong industry supporting over 5,000 direct and indirect jobs with over 7,000 owners until there was an economic impact of the order of 300 million euro to the national economy this level of impact cannot be underestimated particularly in rural areas and the industry remains an important contributor to sustain rural development which is a state of objective first semi state bodies members of this committee will be aware that various studies have been undertaken in our industry in recent years culminating with your report in January of 2016 we involve on have addressed the Khmers of recommendations of these reports and we have assigned the necessary resources for implementation I had a pleasure earlier this year with dr. Colin gainer of appearing before you on the pre legislative scrutiny of the Greyhound industry bill which has recently been published and in fact I think is before the janitors we speak it is clear that an updating of the 1958 Greyhound industry Act is very much needed to provide a modern and legislative framework for the industry the new bill will strengthen proper governance and give statutory effect to the court of practice for the governance of state bodies it with greater specificity and in hence Teague's the existing enhanced the existing regulatory powers in the area of sales training and the racing greyhounds with particular reference to doping it contains provisions to enable board to go on to develop a real-time traceability system either alone or in coop with honors for racing greyhounds so as to identify those in possession of greyhounds and the tribute accountability directly to them the new Act will also place the control committee and the appeals committee on a statutory basis I would include measures to improve the enforcement of penalties during 1917 2017 sorry the board spent a considerable amount of time in formulating a new strategic plan for the industry for the period 2018 to 2022 this plan was the selvedge of an industry-wide consultation process and also had regarded the studies already undertaken the plan focuses on seven key pillars of activity comprising three areas of growth growing owners and breeders growing torch and wagering activity and growing attendances these three growth areas are underpinned by four foundation pillars named the integrity and regulation high welfare standards organizational structures and information technology this plan was approved by the Department of Agriculture food in the marine and since its publication in March of 2018 we have began to progress the many actions that are required under the plan provided we can achieve our funding targets annually we would with the implementation of the initiatives set out in the strategic plan we're running a fair transparent and highly regulated sport offering a top-class experience across all Australia supported by a single commissions and innovative Irish grey on board team where the ground will always come first the sale of the Harz cross great on Stadium finalised in May of this year and this has enabled the board to deal with long term debt issues and for the first time in many years we are funding for investment in track infrastructure and the wider industry the surplus proceeds from the sale amounted to approximately six million euro and these have been subject to a detailed business plan approved by the Minister for agriculture food and the marine and the Minister for public expenditure on reform the plan provides for three million euro investment in Shelburne Park to bring this facility up to the expectation of the modern users and customers with the lesson ourselves to be expended on Quarantine Park and other steady improvements and a possible redevelopment in kilkenny together with a million euro for significant operates and information technology one of the key areas for attention with Industry G plan is a systematic review of the industry footprint the board is committed to conducting a strategic review of all stadia determined the industry footprint for the future I'm pleased to advise that the tender process to appoint an independent party to undertake this review has commenced the view will of necessity involve extensive consultation with stakeholders we would expect a final report by March of 2019 communication within and outside the industry has long been identified as a challenge for Borden alone the National Greyhound consultative former forum was established under my predecessor Phil Meany in 2016 with the aim of engagement with representatives of the wider industry and his forum no meets in a quarterly basis it provides an invaluable mechanism for the board to consult with stakeholders and for to make proposals for change within the industry it also allows stakeholders to raise concerns directly with the board and the executive a range of issues have been dealt with through this forum today including the Greyhound grading system welfare issues and the fixture and events calendar the board is also put in place a communication arrangement with the Raftis members and briefings have taken place in November 2017 and May of this year it is our intention to continue this information and dialogue we've recognized brexit as a key challenge for us as the United Kingdom represents the principle market for Greyhound cells there's also ongoing transportation of greyhounds to participate in competitions in the UK for UK based crowns to participate in competitions in Ireland as recently as the 26th of September of this year we considered this issue in detail at the national Greyhound consultative forum and we were fortunate to have a presentation from an officer of the brexit section of the department of agriculture food and the marine firing from same we will arrange for affected sections of our industry to engage with the department so that the final shape of any breaks and arrangement can satisfactorily meet the needs of the industry I have some personal priorities for the next five years for the end of my term I would expect that the Greyhound Industry Act would be fully operational that Greyhound welfare would be a priority throughout the industry and I want to have improved the cohesion among the stakeholders so that attendances at all our stadia have increased significantly a colleague recently reminded me of the words of memory of Henry Ford coming together is beginning keeping together is progress but working together is success in conclusion chairman I wish to acknowledge work with this committee on matters relating to your own in this and your ongoing support in relation to resourcing and improving same I thank you for the invitation to attend here today I hope to continue to work with this committee and its members in progressing and addressing the issues affecting the Irish create on the industry and I'm happy to do this best I can with any questions thank you very much miss mine deputy Karl thank you thank you German officer I'd like to wait the middle chairmen here take the voice presentation I suppose I'd like to put on record the work on the previous alcohol chairman Finn meanie who are in camp steered steered industry to a difficult period and steered it very well it was just no more planes that I'd like to make and I think you know a great hunt industry is under pressure I think there's no fight in the 90s you know attendants are falling dialed numbers are falling and you know I think we need to get more imaginative to try to try and keep it to keep it in place and keep it in business and I suppose you know I'm a director of a privately owned okay I'll track and I see a first hand how difficult it is for attractive to break even understand business I think you know the welfare and welfare issues I suppose the previous thing we were talking about climate change in a previous presentation I think and welfare and our welfare is is an elephant in the room and it's an issue that has to be addressed and addressed satisfactorily if our industry is the prosper and survive I think you know a lot of dog owners I think when they talk about welfare engaging a is about to stand on the track and the racing surface of watch you know fortunate welfare goes a lot further no - inches to write for the greyhound after he finishes racing on the way it the way that he's going to be looked after and you know both under horses island effect side in order there's a lot of issues that needs to be addressed here I appreciate the board have you know to have directed money on tours tours and at all-star welfare but I think you know more needs to be done and we have to get the public out there to recognize - you know dogs are being looked after extremely well and seemly well cared for and I think of our industry is progress we have to win that battle and I think at the moment we're definitely enough willingness I think it leads into the whole issue of regulation and the enforcement of regular regulation and I think you know it links indicate links into dark welfare and unfortunately our industry has got a name for you know our practices being being being that here so even then when a malpractice is found that would the board have an inability to enforce penalties and fines now hopefully the new gray arrow Velen you know as we sit here has been discussed in the shadows hopefully it will go and address these issues and it's a necessity that these issues are addressed there can be no place in our industry for people who are breaking rules are using substances that are banned and I think it's absolutely essential that were seen has been an industry that doesn't erase any any had any and breaking of rules and regulations and I think you know that has to be enforced and hopefully when this new bill comes into place that you know that that can be done but I could Association sternly and importance with the public of winning dispatcher we've had too many headlines of you know dogs being found with substances and no sciences be taken against the trailer or no change sanctions may need to be enforced against the trailer and you know we've had it on very high-profile nights within the industry and it has told us and serious serious about to have and you know we have to get beyond - and you know in your term as chairman I would you know I would just see this you know regulation and to make sure that the regulations in place and enforced and that they will restore public confidence that everything is above board our industry is absolutely paramount prize money and you know the amount of prize money that's available I think you know we have to make wise money attractive I think we have supply money in place if an order or syndicate have a have a greyhound just you know if he wins a race a tool that have the prospect of breaking even with training fees in a calendar year and you know we have to make attractive and you know a percentage of - prize money has to be available for trainers as well because I suppose the day of private trainers has definitely dwindled and you know you know the Chairman is obvious that you don't as an industry that's you know associated with the family community and that's correct but more and more what's a time pressure that's that's that's all that's on farmers and I suppose you know what it would to change with different changes in in society you know the availability of Labor on farms has greatly reduced so you know the training of dancers that will become more professional more professional and more professional operation and the absolutely essential that you know that is status is that this is made and economically viable profession and I think true prize money increase prize money and nor given trainers a share of that I think is the way to go of us for all of the Syndicates it can't be just seeing that this is you know that the tourism opportunity at least at least a break-even if you have a reasonable success on the track you know our changes and tracking attract attractive people back through the turnstiles you know I often take a walk house to share but here on an evening especially Georgia summer months and you know summer meetings here even in the middle of the capital are extremely poorly attended and you know we have to try and get people back in short back in shows at certain styles and again it's something chairman I think has I know it will be that you will be given paramount attention to but I think we need more imagination as regards their that's available on the toes and you know there was a while there you know a couple years ago over the jackpot on assassination sharp repair acquitted pacing interest across country on the tours that has a vamp erases and we need something like that that will attract Contras in to invest in satellite of certain areas you know I think you have to have a big possum place that we fact upon turn get it won't get the toy Sam Ponto back you packing packing should you know that the tours will be an attractive proposition for attendees of the flags at the moment you know I see it you know people have been bashing into the tours in Rorschach's in Dublin it's just not happening it hasn't it has lost it it's just not casted pools are there are debates that idea I can catch in the public imagination and definitely you know that that's absolutely essential that we do that we do that I'd also be worried about on-site bookmakers and you know I I suppose some would say I need never be in my bonnet about on-site book Packers the numbers have diminish very very differently there over the last couple of years and you know I would say they're down 60 70 80 percent he will come back over Cheney appear if the numbers have dropped and I think in order and the proposition that was in the Burgess you know increasing the the basing tax from 1 to 2 percent and to something I have raised at the VFR parliamentary party I would hope that for track bookmakers the finance bill that we might be able to get an exemption to - because that's the Beijing tax on thrown over and I just wanting track book Quakers would they would be able to be able to will be able to cover that and I think we could see the complete extinguishing of track bookmakers and you know they bring an atmosphere to as well as racetracks what it says heart rates about dog race and they're bringing an atmosphere that is unique to the whole to the whole scheme and you know I think to something that would be a huge loss and I know you know turnover I'm betting on over on the book bag has dropped very very significant say but I think you know if we know the demise I think we will live to requesters so chairman you're commenting at a challenging time for the industry you know the sales the helps cross greater than our flat at the base as I said your previous chairman and so forth so for a lot rule during the period of time in my view it was the correct decision we have you know you have taken away the debt that was hanging over over like a guillotine over the board but I think this opportunity won't come again there won't be another Lester to sell like house class and we have to ensure that we drive forward from here and that the funds that were leftover obviously are used as wisely as possible but I think you know we need to we need to regenerate the industry and I think your term of office I think is going to be is going to be attending factor over this industry survives on us and definitely you know it is under extreme pressure and to attract young people back to the industry I think is you know is it's where we have to go on I would definitely see that among the young people attending dog racing has dropped very very significantly so chairman latch I'm Frank getting you a lot of challenges there and I know you're not extremely well qualified for the position but it's a challenging role you've taken on I wish you the best of luck as I said I'm involved in the industry myself and I obviously like to see it like that not see it doing well I think that we have an awful our challenges out there that we can't ignore and it's it's I'm not saying we can't get it back we can't get industry back but I think we need imagination and a lot of initiatives to try and diverse and I wish you well in your tenure thanks very much deputy chairman mr. Mann for his presentation I'm to that talk recent and wouldn't be anywhere too close to his tie Crawford would be the only one and Donegal but I think it's and bother advance more but I just wanted the Fed since you've requested I don't know but I mean you talked Arab it says the crisis Ben and the level of tracks written stencil are both in the annual report for 2014 15 16 17 are actually very consistent in terms of attendances and the number of Wraith residence or their tens of spare me know they code from a total of six hundred forty four thousand 2014 to six hundred and thirty six thousand and twenty sixteen people at him at seventeen is a wee bit tougher because the figures included feel terrible I mean from my point of view I'm just talking from not knowing anybody put I mean that's what's a little bit sexy between 1600 and 1700 meetings a year I mean that seems to me a huge amount immittance maybe the idea is they would last meeting for better quality met more admissible to it like means us that's what sells like 32 meetings per week which seems to me huge for maybe I'm wrong it is perfect so it's a little bit up I would just say I just supposed but flippantly I think the time is five years you want to see the hope you hope to see the great and bail implemented in the term of life Amir damn you may be a bit optimistic but that's all German sighs thanks very much deeply and the number of meetings are remaining consistent with the number of dogs running are reducing the number of races paranoid are reducing and the number of people while it is static over a three-year period that's not a sufficient number to sustain in the industry we do actually need the model requires a lot more people attending because the only place we can get more money essentially for prize money which is what funds the industry is from people attending and from people sponsoring races so we actually need to increase those so that we can feed money back in with the ideas at a person who owns the great hundred or two grounds he was able to is to run them without it costing him money ultimately and that's probably not the position at the moment and I I would expect deputy that that we should be able to introduce a piece of legislation over five years so what I would just you know I you know I tried seventy idea mister lying about you know the regulation and the you know you confident you have a year happy would would put the we're over that moment yes we've had an import obviously into the the legislation and we bring before you in relation to the legislation and a lot of what we've asked for in relation to regulation is in the is in the bill to strengthen essentially the hands of our hand and hands of the various committees that will ultimately Judah care in enforcing regulation I should say that and you're absolutely correct when you say that we have a reputation and unfortunate reputation and but really that's a perception problem rather than an actual problem I mean the rate of adverse analytical finding is not 0.45% out of approximately five thousand tests and over the last three years it has been no 0.8% not 0.5 something percent and not 0.45% I mean it's a minuscule amount over an awful lot of testing for I except for you what you say we have a perception problem in relation to you might be aware that because you you asked about our procedures our procedures were recently tested before the high court in an application and fortunately they were held to be correct we hope that I would continue we've invested a lot of money in regulation I think we spent two million on one on various aspects of regulation in 2017 and we have to continue to do that it's it's if we don't if we don't crack that problem and we will be able to do all the other things we need to do and as regards progress was a change lab with the horse racing Ireland has that in advance or do you feed that that's the way to go yeah we're we're in favor of that concept if it can be done I know our chief executive and the chief executive of HR I have discussed that matter and I think the next step will be some form of the subcommittee to prepare a report as the feasibility others there are challenges because I'm not an expert in the field but apparently there are physiological differences between dolls and horses and that will require Joule testing system for a mean it does make perfect sense that an Irish based sports lab dealing with animals is a very good idea thank you thank you mr. name okay okay okay thanks very much thank you very much wish you the best of luck in your appointment thank you we're suspending meeting now until I think the ministers do or six at 6:00 p.m. sure so mister again current members witnesses investing public gallery to turn after mobile phones I would like to welcome the Minister for agriculture food marine which might include to the thank you for coming for the committee's day to update commissioning and aquaculture licensing process us away from your officials members are reminded understanding elementary practice defect a member should not comment on criticize or make charges against either personal side the house or official either by name or such ways make him a identifiable Minister Minister for I know advisers maker office their countries Thank You mr. chairman I thank the members of the waiting for the invitation to meet with him today to discuss agricultural licensing in the context of the report of the independent agricultural licensing review room the committee is familiar with the background to this issue but it is useful to restate the position for the avoidance of confusion this opening statement is therefore intended to provide the committee members with a broad overview of the agricultural licensing system and how it operates the key issues associated with the licensing backlog which gave rise to the review a brief overview of the key recommendations of the review and progress to date on implementation I'd be glad to take any questions from the committee members afterwards an aquaculture license is required by law for the cultivation of fin fish shellfish and certain marine plants such as seaweed some aquaculture takes place on land but vast majority of aquaculture select activity takes place in the marine environment on the foreshore it are in Ireland almost all force or is in public ownership and aquaculture activity therefore requires both an aquaculture license to conduct operations and a companion force or license to lawfully occupy the area foreshore in question even in the rare case of private foreshore and aquaculture license is required to engage in aquaculture activity the foreshore is measured from the high-water mark out to 12 nautical miles and is approximately 39,000 square kilometres in overall size it is roughly equal in size to just over 50% of the land area of the state however the area suitable raku culture represent a small fraction of the foreshore and in the case of fin fish cultivation are exclusively on the western seaboard my department considers all applications for aquaculture licenses in accordance with the following legislation the Fisheries Amendment Act 1997 the foreshore Act 1933 the EU habitats directive r92 43 the you birth directive 79 409 the consolidated environmental impact assessment directives 2011 of 92 and the public participation directive otherwise known as the eros Convention the licensing process involves consultation with a wide range of scientific and technical advisers as well as various statutory consult is the legislation also provides for a period of public consultation in addition to the above legislation my department must adhere to a wide range of regulatory requirements and other legislation which impact on the licensing process the public participation directive has emerged as a crucial factor in the rollout of the licensing system as it applies to individual cases the key aim of this directive is to grant the general public specific rights regarding access to information in governmental decision-making processes on matters concerning the local national and trans boundary environment the major complaint from agricultural farmers on licensing relates to the backlog that has developed in the processing of licence applications the background to the backlog is that in 2007 the European Court of Justice issued a negative judgment against Ireland for breaches of the European boards and habitats directive a large element of the judgement concerned a failure by the state to put in place a system for data collection definition of scientific interest and adequate assessment of agricultural license applications in the two 2000 areas at the time of the European Court of Justice case national legislation was put in place to ensure that Irish aquaculture operations operating under pre-existing licenses and who were seeking renewals could continue to operate on the doors licenses until a determination could be made on their renewal applications in compliance with the Natura 2000 directives in the negotiations to address this European Court judgment judgment and to enable aquaculture to continue in Natura 2000 areas in the interim a process was agreed with DG environment and this is being implemented the process includes data collection the setting of conservation objectives by the National Parks and Wildlife Service I didn't find the scientific interest to be protected in the bays carrying out of appropriate assessments of the licence applications against those scientific interests and appropriate licensing taking account of among other things that you were 2,000 requirements the production of these appropriate assessments has been resource intensive and very time-consuming not least because of tidal cycles and seasonality issues in relation to data gathering on board migrations and other environmental phenomena in many cases multi-year time series data had to be collected in addition to the sea beds in Natura 2000 areas also had to be mapped to identify conservation interests for example this work involved 120 tree survey events carried out by 10 contractors in addition profiling black cultural industry activities was carry out carried out for all days in order to define the likely interactions between conservation features of sites in many instances there were little data or published literature unlikely interactions between agriculture activities and conservation features a number of targeted studies and reviews were commissioned to investigate responses of conservation features example boards and/or habitats to specific aquaculture and Fisheries activities many of these have subsequently been published in primary literature all of this preliminary work to prepare the groundwork for consideration of licensing went on from 2009 onwards I'm glad to report that most of this data collection definition of scientific interests and the appropriate assessments process itself is almost complete and appropriate assessment reports have been received by my department from the Marine Institute marine Institute in respect of 29 Bay's these bays constitute the bulk of the aquaculture activity and the work carried out since 2009 permitted permitted licensing in compliance with the Natura 2000 directives and the European Court judge European Court of Justice judgment to convince since license increments under the new system a little over 600 license in licensing decisions were made on agricultural sites are on the course after the end of 2017 dealing with the Natura 2000 elements has been the factor for that has been the major focus for all involved in the licensing process of the recently but there are other issues including legislative reform the streamlining of procedures and the optimum use of technology associated with licensing which also need to be addressed because of all these elements are commissioned the independent review of agricultural licensing in December 2016 and the report was delivered to me at the end of May 2017 the review group carried out a detailed examination of the existing agricultural licensing process undertook comprehensive stakeholder consultation and looked at comparative national and international concern systems to determine best practice for mapping a complex licensing process in a transparent environmentally appropriate and legally robust manner the group's report is published and available to view on my department's website a total of 30 separate recommendations are contained in the report since receiving the report of the review group my department has engaged in detailed consideration of the recommendations set out in the report we review to their implementation having a guard to the legislative environmental technical and Public Interest issues that arise my department has also engaged closely with industry representatives and relevant state agencies the core recommendation of the independent review was to deal with the backlog by the end of 2019 in response to the priority given by stakeholders to the elimination of the licensing backlog my department has been actively working towards the achievement of 300 license determinations this year would afford a 300 project for 2019 I can confirm that the target of 300 license determinations has been achieved two months ahead of schedule this is a very substantial achievement and gives a clear indication of my commitment and the commitment of my department to dealing with this issue in a comprehensive manner I can further that we are fully committed to achieving 340 license determinations in 2019 and that this would effectively eliminate the shellfish licensing backlog as an issue affecting the industry the elimination of the shellfish licensing backlog will be a game-changer for the industry and will provide a solid footing for the industry Leung demanded by industry representatives the bar chart which I've circulated chairman wit with the screamed with the script said so clearly the dimensions of the change that has been brought about in 2018 and is projected for 2019 effectively the rate of determinations of aquaculture license applications this year is almost three times the level of decisions that were made in previous years shellfish aquaculture represents by far the greatest number of operators who are also in the main small family-run businesses for this reason and in conjunction with industry representatives my department has prioritized the elimination reduction of the backlog in respect of shellfish aquaculture during 2018 for 2019 it is expected that the backlog in shellfish aquaculture will be effectively eliminated once shellfish farmers operating within natural areas have been relicensed in relicensed in compliance with the natural directives they can access development funding under our seafood development programme in relation to fin fish aquaculture a focused modular approach towards addressing the backlog in fin fish licensing will be accelerated the processing of applications for fin fish licences in the marine environment is significantly more complex than the situation in relation to shellfish aquaculture due to the requirements of due to the requirement for operators to produce environmental impact statements and for my department and relevant agencies to analyze these reports in detail by Department must introduce an environmental impact assessment in relation to each application in addition developments that apply generally to aquaculture licensing have a particular resonance for fin fish licensing for the following reasons a greater focus by environmental NGOs and the general public on key European Union legislation and heightened public awareness and concerns about aquaculture operations mainly relating to salmon farming but concerns also arise frequently in relation to shellfish licensing there should be no doubt in anybody's mind that the core reason I established the independent aquaculture licensing review group was the need to address the licensing backlog arising from the European Court of Justice judgment this was the primary concern of industry stakeholders this core need is being actively in origin t addressed by my department and the first results of our efforts are already discernible we have achieved 300 licence determinations this year to date we will I am confident achieve affordable 300 license determinations next year the related recommendations are also being addressed and will be implemented as part of a larger reform of the regulatory process however I have been very conscious of the need to prioritize implementation in response to what the industry has itself pointed to as the most urgent issue the licensing backlog once this has been eliminated for the bulk of operators who are in the shellfish sector they will be operating on the 10-year licenses and can access developmental funding and supports available from the stage in relation to fin fish licensing my department is scheduled to formally request operators to submit environmental impact statements in respect of their license renewal applications this request is scheduled to issue to all operators shortly and will specify the timeline for submission of the necessary documentation this process was commenced by my department in 2014 but following strong representation from our FA agriculture on behalf of the aquaculture industry the matter was not advanced until additional guidelines and workshops on the issue were provided by B I am chairman if I if I might just take the opportunity in the context of reference to the IFA to pay tribute to the Fair aquaculture representative Richie Richie Flynn who sadly passed away recently he had given I think many many years of sterling service to the aquaculture sector and his unfortunate untimely passing I think is a great loss to the aquaculture sector and indeed to everybody in IFA as well but I had the great privilege of working very closely with him over many years bought in this capacity but also as an opposition spokesperson Ali was always the most courteous of gentlemen to meet with but had a steely determination in respect of the sector that he represented and it would be remiss of me not to avail of the opportunity to to acknowledge his role and his passing at this opportune time Thank You chairman my department indicated that it would suspend its requests in respect of this process until those workshops etc were complete however this was without prejudice to any operator in the Fidan fish industry who wish to submit a valid environmental impact statement in the interim the process will now be renewed with professed for environmental impact seasons before the end of the year this represents a significant response to the recommendation of the independent aquaculture licensing review group in the context of fin fish aquaculture the provision of valid environmental impact statements in compliance with the guidelines prepared by bi m and given to applicants will enable my department to advance these applications in line with the European Union legal requirements an efficient and effective licensing system can be an important tool in the strategic direction of the aquaculture industry and can set the weather in terms of agricultural development as indicated above my department has delivered 300 aquaculture license determinations this year a trebling of the prevail of the previous rate of determinations and equipment to deliver a four to three hundred next year we reviewed it here in the backlog which will talk to you to the European Court of Justice judgment in addition my department is currently engaged in forward planning in conjunction with industry representatives relevant the agencies directly focused on the rapid reduction and elimination of the finfish licensing backlog a key part of this planning process is ensuring that the industry can continue to operate as normal in accordance with legislative requirements the legislative provisions that were put in place to enable operators to continue working pending completion of the licensing process in line with the EU natural requirements have enabled all operators to continue their business this still applies it is important to note that while attention has been given to difficulties associated with licensing this is in fact a buoyant industry with a good record of employment the 2018 BIA manual aquaculture survey indicates that Irish aquaculture output in 2017 increased to forty seven thousand one hundred and forty seven tons of fan gate Rogers wort two hundred and eight million two hundred eight point four million production continued to expand inboard overall volume which was up seven percent and value which is up twenty four percent and unit value from twenty sixteen the salmon sector was the major contributor to the increase in board overall volume and value while other sector output continued to expand the unit value of bought these sectors continues to increase as does the recognition of their product quality the bottom muslin sector continued to recover in 2017 d'Or seed supply uncertainty remains a threat to this the overall industry employed almost 2,000 people directly answered on about 280 primary production units in 2017 my department has also put in place substantial financial and other supports for the industry as a whole financial support is supplied under the MFF operational program and is directed towards three main areas sustainable aquaculture production knowledge innovation and new technology and more effective governance of marine planning in addition to the direct financial supports ba VI M provides a range of technical support to the agricultural sector to assist in the development of existing businesses and to address industry-wide issues such as disease management and the introduction of new technologies to conclude the steps with that have been taken by myself in my department to establish the independent review and take forward the core recommendations on eliminating the backlog are bearing fruit and I believe we're well on the way to eliminating this historic issue and putting the industry on a sound footing going forward but the problem will be glad to update the Committee on progress and aquaculture licensing as and when required thank you very much chairman and to your officials for coming in today and for your opening presentation and overview of the of the issue minister I suppose we had a very thorough session a number of months ago with your officials in relation to the actual the the aquaculture licensing review report and through it in some detail and they did that line to us a lot of what you have outlined us here today in relation to what has come to pass the background to it and also the fact that there is a prioritization being made in relation to dealing with the backlog in relation to shellfish applications and indeed the 300 license target this year next year we did however and during that session press them very significantly in relation to the implementation of all of the recommendations from the aquaculture licensing review report and very much the feedback we were getting and that session was that the prioritization at this point in time was on the shellfish backlog and that the record the other recommendations would have to await the progress being made in that and be dealt with subsequently go in the line and as you pointed out yourself there there are thirdly separate I think it's 30 separate recommendations from the report and the very final after the the those 30 recommendations are outlined the review committee go on to indicate now just quote because I think is useful to to to outline where they were coming from they indicated and what they said and there's something hopefully the group order Turkish review work in line terms of reference and acknowledges that implementation of the report is a matter for the minister in the department implementation of all of the recommendations in this report will be challenging however the group considers that it would be beneficial to set out an implementation strategy which would assign responsibility for recommendations accountability and set milestones for delivery and identified the necessary resources to support the implementation process now that sort of summarizes where they're at and what they felt needed to happen was regard to the 30 various recommendations which they had put forward and a couple of the first two recommendations they had actually put forward and commenced with was outlining the need for a reasonable time scale for license determinations and that that there needed to be that that needed it put in place an indeed as part of that as well minister the outline that there needed to be legislation that the ship by legislation developed in order to to to put in place a new licensing system now when we had discussed this with the officials the last day we were informed that there hadn't been really any progress in relation to that legislation that that legislation would have to would ever take a back seat or such to the prioritization of resources towards the shellfish licensee backlog so while I would acknowledge the important work of dealing with the shellfish backlog I don't see any reason why Minister we don't almost not far off a year and a half on from the publication of the licensing review that we don't have an implementation strategy yet and that we haven't had something published from you as the minister dealing with the various recommendations outlining who responsibility was assigned for for implementing each of those recommendations and putting a timeline and implementation timeline in place for each of them that would be at a minimum and Minister I would have thought a basic response to the report and a basic outline of how we would actually progress and I simply think it's not acceptable that you as Minister haven't yet produce that and ensure that your officials have produced that and that's why I'm having discussed it here it erupted his committee we decided that it was important that yourself as the political head of the department that it was important that we actually engaged further with you teased are at these issues and particularly put the point across to you in relation to actually getting that implementation plan in place and then also Minister looking to back it up with the necessary resources to make progress can I also touch Minister on the issue of the finfish licensing backlog certainly the prioritization has been on on the the shellfish licenses but there has there's a very significant backlog which hasn't been addressed yet in relation to finfish and we have to bear in mind that fin fish make up 75% of the value of the aquaculture market overall with Bing Bingbing the most significant part of it value-wise you'll be aware of a company in my own part of the world and indeed it's marine harvest which also which i think is the most by far the largest salmon producer in the country but minister and also works done as far as cork along the west coast was his processing base and manage and that processing base it has operates it's some somewhere around forty percent capacity with a lot more capacity to actually process fish were they available and also the resultant employment that that could create and a nolan north to nicole it's in an area where other types of employment as few and far between and unfortunately and if you look at the from had a meeting with them recently and looked at the list of licenses that they have had on on file minister in terms of awaiting decision and if you go back through the data the date of renewal application minister at something from 2005 2007 2007 2015 2014 number four or five or 2005 three or four seven or eight actually about two thousand eleven and two at 2006 and they have three live new applications in place one of them per meant for the shot had a boundary back in 2011 another submitted for waterfall in 2016 and one submitted for doing more effortless Willy in 2014 and they're sitting there Minister not being able to be progressed that particular company is indicators that they are in a position to invest off the 22 million euro in the event of licenses being able to progress and through the system which could add another 250 jobs many of them are north Tony Gore would also write across the West Course including in your own County so that's an example in relation to the finfish sector where the fact that we are not on top of processing the applications now we don't have the resources in place to I or the streamlines licensing system in place to actually move them on where we are not utilizing and maximizing the value and potential of our aquaculture industry particular with regard to Federation if you look going back to 2003 salmon production was at 23,000 whereas last year think it was in a just honor nineteen and a half thousand tons well if you look at it comparatively to other countries particularly Scotland we see a scenario where licenses from submission to to conclusion and a decision can be done within a couple of years and indeed as a result of that we see that sector growing and in particular in the last number of years we've seen Marine Harvest pioneered the organic salmon production and that has meeting a very very strong need in the market where demand is increasing but because of the backlog and delay in terms of processing licenses that demand is not being able to be met or indeed expanded upon so I would ask you Minister on those points I raised specifically the tide the implementation plan the legislation nicholae on the the Fen fish and the backlogs were experiencing there and the need for a radical overhaul of it in a new system they put in place to address those in responding Thank You sanctimony surfer has update on the license and review procedures I have a number of questions Justin race into the whole process and I mean obviously I understand ways as taken saw same days to do to carry right another matter housed in a backlog because of the requirement of testing and lots of out to be done but I also did this was I think you see a previous Peter self-service announcer said this is a preparation for the role I Tiffany you white system of license along as items being used as kind of their testing model for for that for new Wade's body so I wonder would you just explain expand on that before the committee as well just thing made up some applications for Scotland and other countries as well as what is actually can happen there or is just simply an Irish system and they've been implemented by force on us by the EU as an IT system and that we have to go along with a lot more rigorous licensing regime and just listen to I mean the operations I've been granted says the figures that you have the three under the year or whatever has been granted they have been for an awful long time because of the test measurements of the gutter and there has been a big problem with the public in terms of I mean obey gets approval gets all privileged and all of a sudden then just a number of license and application some have been in for a number of years and have cetera nothing happen with them and all of a sudden they're probably getting informed that these licenses are taken they're wondering where they came from what's happening and I think the public has been left out as part of a stakeholder and relation to this process and I think that could lead us lead into an awful lot of conflict and an awful a lot of difficulty and I think whatever licensing regime you put in has to be able to facilitate the public alike the public to have the role and play and possess fit in with us and I'm just wondering as your own Department the right party to be issuing the licenses on that basis vism in your very integral in terms of funding for the culture and everything else well socially and you're also licensed um and I just see from the overall response to a given year that the public really don't care to mention I get a look in and I think that's regrettable because I think an awful lot of the issues that can be dealt with would be very involved in the public as well and I think we should be looking at the public has been a stakeholder as well and being required to be contacted and talk to talk to as well and also just in relation to the updating of the information there's been a huge amount of information gathered over the last several years for all the different bays and softly gotten us and I think that's very important information but that information then won't be static forever so it has to be updated so have you put in place systems to update for update know that information as well so sad for a future like when these annual applications come into place when this renewal applications come up in 2010 or whatever 10-year licenses they were data information is gonna have to be new and fresh again so are we gonna end up in the whole same situation again and friend the new licenses come to be reviewed again sighs I think that's going to be important so that's gonna have to be a system of constantly updating this information so I just wonder if you could expand a wee bit on that as well Thank You Minister are the the Agriculture Committee here had asked your department to submit an updated report dealing with the 30 recommendations and what we received was the summary document with no details recommendation by recommendation update that's what we asked for and what we have here is a sort of a it's not good no funny way what you've given us today is similarly I mean it just I apologize with a bit late for your your presentation but if you look at progress to date on implementation and there's three paragraphs there and all it says is you're dealing with the 300 backlog and shellfish over the next two years that's not what we asked for we asked for the 30 recommendations for you specifically and your officials to tell us what you're doing to implement the recommendations or if you're refusing to implement and tell us but if we assume that you're going to implement all 30 recommendations and I think there are houses they robbed us to serve to know on a recommendation by recommendation basis where you're at with the implementation that's not what we have here today it's not acceptable muster you know I think that's offensive to this committee frankly that we have had this really per reports and now we have this today which is three paragraphs dealing with 30 recommendations it's not acceptable so that's the first thing to say the second thing is the reason why this committee the Agriculture Committee agriculture food in the marine the reason why this committee are so exercised is because of the stunning failure of the state to develop the salmon farming industry stunning failure today Norway a European country in 2018 is producing 1 million two hundred and seventy eight thousand one hundred tons 1 million two hundred and seventy eight thousand one hundred tons Scotland one hundred and seventy four thousand tons the Faroe Islands which is five times the size of accolade and the Faroe Islands seventy three thousand tonnes are our state's seventeen thousand tons seventeen thousand tons it was twenty three and a half thousand tons seventeen years ago outrageous absolutely outrageous a department can strangle the potential of an industry that can create hundreds and hundreds of jobs and rural coastal communities outrageous what has happened here and we had this independent report with 30 recommendations and we have no updates over from your department officials are today as to what's happening to deal with this crisis that's profound failure to develop the potential of this industry 16 years ago I visited marine harvests which is an important employer in rural north Tony goal for the first time 16 years ago and I could see the potential of that industry and today that industry's potential has been strangled absolutely shocking 16 years almost my entire public service I've been a public representative all of those years and it's just going backwards that's the urgency of the issue just to say to you too that the salmon farming industry is 75 percent of aquaculture 75 percent of aquaculture yeah you focus on shellfish that's called low-hanging fruit see go for 300 licenses this year 300 licenses next year and the shellfish area okay you're the the reality also is that the agriculture licensing appeal board it's not resourced adequately so you're going to have all of these low-hanging fruits applications and shellfish which is 25% of the overall industry and you're going to backlog the agriculture Appeals licensing process without resources pneumatic Whitley that's the appeals process so that's the that's always put those points you know I'm just I'm actually shocked Minister I genuinely shocked at the lack of urgency in your department considering the shopping failure to develop this industry of real importance to rural coastal communities I mean those statistics are irrefutable every futile and then you ask why and the answers are clear Scotland's 18 to 22 months today with applications typically 18 to 22 months there's one on the board here this 2005 13 years it's been strangled by bureaucracy and a failure to update systems absolutely strangled by bureaucracy and you know you're going to come back and you'll get the word new here now if your officials about they EU that's 10 years old that's a long time ago a long time to do these issues and resource and address them so we get to the point we have an independent report I command you Minister on the independent report I haven't gone you personally but I think your department officials have seriously failed our rural coastal communities so we get to this independent report and then we finally get it published we get the the hearings in this committee and as I say still we don't know what your department officials are doing in relation to the 30 recommendations and we need to know very very soon so now my final questions are this in terms of your department can I find out who is responsible for making recommendations to you around issuing of licenses so who is the Department official who makes recommendations to yourself around the issuing of licenses right and then who is the Department official or officials who would deal with the enforcement of regulations so I mean what they're supposed to reason why I'm asking the question as it appears to me that you should have a separation of department officials or States agency officials who are responsible for the development and the licensing of the industry and then you need to have somebody probably in the environmental sector who deals with the enforcement of regulations in the industry you need to separate those two matters and indeed that is pretty much one of the recommend recommendations from the independent report you know that you need no conflicts of interest that you need to make sure no you so be interested so who are the department officials are they different people are the different individuals who deal with the recommendations are licensing and the enforcement of regulations are they separate people separate departments or they want on the same I just like to get an understanding of that because that appears to me to be a challenge and I may have more follow-up questions thank you thank you very much chairman and I'd like to thank the the tree members and I think it's probably no accident that the tree are from Donny God and I do appreciate their their long-standing interest in this issue and Senator McLaughlin made reference to one company as I think that the two previous speakers am I in fact visited that facility you know a number of years ago myself long before I was in this position and I very much appreciate the potential and that's in the sector and it's a relatively new industry here and in the context of our farming generally it's certainly a new industry globally and we are relative to global development uh not very much in or in its nascent stage here in Ireland and I make absolutely colleagues in no apology whatsoever in the context of the report that you allude to for taking and running with the most critical element of it ahead and beyond by a country mile of any other of the recommendations and that is clearing the license backlog make no apology whatsoever for that because that's the key to unleashing the potential all of the rest of it to me are secondary considerations and in an ideal world we'd have flowcharts and we'd have you know indications but I asked the division but in the department specifically asked and equipment is there there's a first step in the context of that report that we would prioritize to the cost of every other recommendation if necessary the tearing of the licensing backlog and that's what we'll do and we are making progress in that regard and I make no apology for that that is the key critical issue because you can't work without a license and I senator I mean I can't operate in that context outside of the law and it is important to take into account the European Court of Justice judgment but in the context of that judgment I think to give credit to officials whom I think you unfairly maligned they did negotiate in the context of a very clear judgment against us and finding against us in the context of our licensing your applicants in in the context of the habitats directive they did negotiate a permission for those who had currently had licences to continue to operate on the doors licences what we did quite an enormous undertaking in terms of gathering all of the data for the appropriate assessments in all of the Bears we were literally starting from scratch and that was quite a mammoth undertaking to do that but in order that we didn't have which would have been a calamitous the judgment was challenging but it would have been calamitous if the judgment was applied we with full rigor and intent he would have closed down the industry and what we negotiated was an ability for the industry to continue to operate its existing licenses now reference has been made to the tonnage and I I make this point I'm aware of the International comparisons but we need to be sure that we are comparing light but like our production is generally in the organic sphere so it's not as intense of an operation a production system as you know others in the international sphere that have been quoted but that haven't been said it is lower than it was in in in the early noughties but I think the you know the the history of the sector will show that in the early noughties there was a collapse of the the European market a lot of the the early operators by virtue of the economic consequences of that cut white-coat there was a court case at an anti-doping court case taken at a European level but the consequences for it for the early operators in the industry here was they were wiped out so we were virtually starting from scratch again post 2003 which is the figure I think the deputy deputy mechana-logs alluded to when it was at 23,000 tonnes and and and I think the the the flexibility that the the albeit restricted arrangements that we have arise from the European Court of Justice ruling show that I in fact since 2012 it was a it was 12,000 tonnes in 2016 it was sixteen thousand three hundred tonnes and in 2017 we produced 19 thousand three hundred and five tonnes so the trajectory has been in the right direction and what we need we need to we need to make more progress on finfish which seems to be the primary concern for the deputies and I understand that it's not 75% to the value and in fact I think the figures I have for 2016 is the value of the the finfish side was been around 100 million and of the value of the shellfish was just shy of 60 million so it's more in the reach of 2 to 175 moot point they are both extremely valuable sectors and provide very valuable employment and no matter where you know or which Enterprise it is and our endeavor is to get to a situation where the licensing regime you know enables the full potential of the sector to be realized but in taking into account the you know the licensing regime we have to be conscious that in the context of that process there are rights enjoyed by all parties and I think deputy immigrant Pringle alluded to this you know there are rights of third parties to register their views and there is an independent appeals process in respect of any license determinations that are issued and that's as as it is you know if you look at comparable issues the most obvious one is a planning application of a routine planning application to local authority there is there is an appeals process to Burton all that there is appeals process in respect of these licensing decisions and that can be exercised by either a third party or an applicant the council doesn't fund the development of Alec nobody put the sale office or the local authority is responsible for both the the granting of a planning permission and also responsible for enforcement so it has both the development and enforcement isidro right funding for them as well that's a very important difference well III I think it is appropriate that you know my department has a role and one that we take really seriously and negotiated substantial funding already MFF had to assist approved and licenses operators to achieve their potential I don't think that in any way is you know in conflict with our role determined conflict with your licenses but I think it's exactly you're older to get as much fun as possible for the industry yeah but you should not also be licensed and the operators I mean I think the licensing system needs to be independent of look I mean III here you may not have really I mean there are different views about that I I do not see it as as a conflict at all we take all of the respective roles extremely seriously I mean there are a lot of license applicants who would wish you know that it wasn't the case I appreciate what every successful licenses issues you know it's quite happy with the process but there are appeals and there are checks and balances built into any system so I mean we are striving as as an imperative to address the DES licensing backlog and that doesn't mean mind you that that is is to find in favor of all applicants it's not because the the statistics show in fact I think of the the 300 licenses that were granted each year of the approximately 860 were positive around on this octave or 160 grants and 144 refuses so I mean it's not it's not an a slam dunk you know that we you know we don't wear our not compromised in in in in the integrity of the process one I also and and as I said there are there are checks and balances in in the system as well just with regard to one of the points made and I don't intend to underwrite it good would be appropriate to reference any individual applications but deputy McConnell of did mention born shot head that was one in licenses that was granted by the department the finish one is obviously the you know the one that's of greater interest in Indonesian I appreciate the range geographical spread of the the the industry and we are in in terms of trying to accelerate that licensing process we will be a you know issuing a requirement for environmental impact statements that is the necessary next step to to clearing the backlog in that area of license application put bear in mind all the existing license holders continue to have that license and operate under it so it's it's a complex process it's not easy I mean I referenced all of the the legislation that confirms it from habitats directors boards directives for Shore legislation it is extraordinary complex to do the all the appropriate assessments take into account the individual nature of all the the bears involved the flora and fauna the competing demands for access to the the feed potential in the bay etc so it's it's a complex system I think of dead to it but just I asked question about the the the conflict of interest or potential conflict of interest in terms of like who are the like in terms of just to be clear we don't need to name names but in terms of is it the same officials that would make a recommendation to you around licensing as would make a recommendation in terms of enforcement and penalties are the same Department the same the the the unit operates out of the Department headquarters in clinical Tia it's not a a large unit you know there there is recommendation and input in in terms of the development process from from bima as I understand it's the same people they know the the B I M is an independent agency in respect of the development of the Sun but my question is there will be officials because obviously you sign off on license being authorized and and also there will be enforcement and penalties is that the same pilot area Yes Minister that's a problem that's a problem minister but that that's the same that operates in the department in the context of agriculture as well yeah but but we've just brought to your attention is an industry that has been squeezed for the best part of it of two decades an industry that has not achieved its potential so squeeze deputy not but by virtue of who is by virtue of the the bind that was put on the industry under the path of in the context of a European Court let's just and and and in the countries that point the you know we are accelerating the process of license determination which is a critical loop let's just deal with the ECJ reference reference ecj in 2007 it's 11 years ago 11 years right so that that arose from habitats directive not being transposed that was 24 years ago Commons didn't do that nothing to do with the industry so that's that's that's 11 years ago 11 years ago the the over point is that this only as a problem and you know like for example there are applications where si C's did not apply and they're also facing the same delays so I mean 7 years is a hell of a long time to get to grips with the implications of a other decision and I see the first directive you referred in 2009 I guess that's a decade a decade to get scripts when you see the impact it's having on an industry we're desperately trying to get jobs into particularly rural coastal communities desperately trying to get employers into those communities and for a whole decade I'm sorry but the excuse TCGA it's long run right long note 11 years you know seriously with this shouldn't even be put here in front of us note at this stage is a barrier but what I'm saying to you is it you don't have it and this is this is this is what makes me actually quite angry I so and you say for a person's foot from Donegal well it just happens that you know I'm a former member of this committee the to a dark colleagues are members of this committee and there is no but coastal including your community coastal communities right during the west coast of Ireland from Donegal died into your own home kinda of cork have been let down and the potential of this I mean it's estimated that the last year because of all of this is over a billion will be over a billion within a year or two a loss of over a billion in terms of production that's was estimated by the industry here that's what we're talking about how many jobs is that good temperament and I'm gonna finish now with this point is that this independent report is published and I command you for that getting done it was partly it's a third report looking at changes in this system the third right but this one's it's critical it's good it's got 30 recommendations I have not heard from you minister or your officials once that you're not gonna implement those recommendations so I assume you're going to implement all 31 of them clearly says you need to separate out the decision on licensing from the over matters in two separate oh it's you know decision-making processes so they're independent of each other so if somebody is responsible for developments and licensing and all of that that they can get on with that and if somebody's responsible for and that's important too for making sure that licenses are adhere to that the concerns of the public are listen to that these are these are matters that need to be separated that's one of the recommendations yet you're saying today you don't see a conflict of interest as different views on that so we need the clarity are you going to implement all 30 recommendations and are you going to listen to our concerns as representatives for not just on Eagle but for rural communities particularly rural coastal communities that there's a massive loss here and there's a lack of urgency as I say you say 65 percent over 7 five percent but the significant majority of value in this sector and the urgency is in is in that area fun fish yet you guys in this weekend this summary that you gave us from your department talked about it been kicked back to twenty twenty twenty twenty two years two-thirds of it as in chaos it's not it's not happening installed it's been squeezed but will win two more years that's the lack of urgency and the lack of acceptance and your department when I seen often in your statement here today minister and I'm just asking you to see the purpose of meeting today is it doesn't achieve anything me venting my frustration and anger a new lesson and patiently and your you know in fairness to your accommodation man but that doesn't achieve anything what I'm appealing to you today Minister is to understand and maybe maybe even to start to meet with some of those stakeholders in the aquaculture industry who feeling or a Ben Stein me to go and meet them who and visit their production centers see the potential you know and and then go back to your officials and demand change you know we need to see change the what has gone before past the end has to end and there has to be a change and attitude but I think it's shocking but after everything I've said that we get a report to this committee that says it'll be two more years where we get Ryan to finish you know before we prioritize and we're prioritizing the low-hanging fruit of the shellfish licenses that's just it's often has to seriously change here everybody achieve our potential you know Thomas must ask your questions David sprinkle especially played endeavoring I said earlier on her and listen to the role of the EU in the Commission in terms of enforcing this licensing procedure on us Felix farmer Martha but and also them as well in relation to the updating others information for future licenses from these 10 years or alright it's how you typically updated all the information for future licenses so when their tenure license you have a ten year license now doesn't even have to reapply and then you're saying for your next license but the information will be out of date such environmental information that you've got at that stage I'm presume it will have to be updated is being as it is being nothing I want to check yeah okay I'm gonna start give yeah I mean I I'm something at a last - - and I appreciate your commitment senator McLaughlin but you talk about a loss of a billion euros to the sector all of the all of the European Court of Justice ruling we negotiate the situation where everybody had a license could continue to operate on the data license and in in the period from from 2004 and the finfish side to 2017 the tonnage has increased almost 30 percent from 15,000 tonnes to nearly 20,000 tonnes fifteen thousand two hundred to nineteen thousand five hundred so in fact in the in in the face of pretty severe constraints by the Court of Justice the industry has grown in volume terms that's that's a fact is not disputable 110 for Scotland one tenth of the production of Scotland except that yeah but but the licensing regime in Scotland isn't it isn't exactly you know a walk in the park either and I mean there are seven there are seven different licenses it's not twelve years it's not thirteen years but they are apologies apologies I mean I I mean I appreciate the points you make and and my ambition is and I have engaged with the sector is to get a system that's fit for purpose that delivers on the potential that recognizes the rights of applicants and third parties that the process is fair and transparent and that as I said as an imperative deals with the license backlog because until we have done that and made determinations on on all those applications the first thing you need to grow the production is to have a determination on license applications that's that's that's one of the critical gatekeepers there are others and I mean I have mixed views on some of the recommendations I've mixed views and some of the recommendations I mean I don't think you would find unanimous EU within the the culture sector for example on 20 year licenses I know some might I would suspect a majority of operators might not the cost associated with that toward parties in Geo's might certainly not like the fact that we will be you know giving away rights for a generational period effectively and it would be significant costs that might be beyond the scope of many smaller enterprises certainly so there I mean the there are thirty recommendations but I make no apology for prioritizing in absolute terms the dealing with the backlog of licenses and that's where deputy Pringle raised an important point I mean are we gonna get caught up again in the next wave because of no we are we are doing second wrong now of appropriate assessments sort of we continue to update the database and enable us in you know to make determinations more effectively but the critical thing is to is to build the that that I mean we started without any baseline on those days and part was happening there in terms of all of the criteria that were found to get that we were found against our in terms of court so we did have a mammoth undertaking and and it's important that you know we don't see that as a finite obligation it's it's a room and a revolving obligation because payers change and their biological capacity to sustain wildlife and aquaculture operations is defined at any particular time soars above obviously important that we continued that process on a regular basis as you render you as well I mean you said there that the Scotland that's her own licensing process and could be we were told and yes committee previously by the previous masters that this was the U is used in Ireland as template to roll that across the EU F our system is so rigorous now it takes a number of years longer than Scotland I cannot be a dick you know so either I think Prague would I'm not an expert on the Scottish system but I my understanding is it takes in the region of two years plus and there are seven different approvals or licenses within the agriculture license system it may well be that they had an implementation I'm not sure that they fell fall in any way of the European Court justice in respect to the application of any individual directive this is okay my understanding is there is the single cotton case system that is singularly transferable to all Member States so we're grappling with the consequences of all those directives and our own legislation and framing a licensing process within that it takes account to those things you can I submit a bit of bespoke arrangement for Ireland no they did I know what the European do European Court of Justice basically found that we weren't applying the relevant directive and we didn't had to to amend our our licensing process to take account of that and that involved doing an appropriate assessment for all of those Bay's 29:29 Bay's I identified around the canal so that would I mean that was quite some undertaking and I appreciate the point that central McLaughlin makes about we're aware so many years on eleven years on from that but it was a mammoth undertaking and as a consequence II who understandably a backlog of of licenses built up but we did and this is important because and it's reflected in the growth of the sector even within that the constraints that were operating under the we did secure a permission that existing licenses could continue to operate what we built the infrastructure on being able to make better informed decisions on on those license renewals as well as undo applications so the agriculture licensing procedure and Scotland Denmark France Spain Portugal meets all same requirements we do or they all operate they all operate under the same legislation so we have been you know slightly some states well some states will follow some directors we fell foul of this one under court justice you know ruling obliges us to to effectively go back to the drawing board in respect of our licensing system as I said no I'm not an expert nor do I you know I I know that the the review group looked at international best practice as well so we've had we've had to build our system from the ground up effectively arise that judgment puts secured a concession that the existing license holders continue to operate so if I make an application I for a bay that has been wrong everything I got how long will that take well I would imagine less than two years maybe three to two years would be more viscous so for anymore these are done they're neither two years and so that I've been with Lamar with everywhere else the estimation Minister just to make it where the industry estimates that they enter the economic loss we're talking about here in the context of food harvest 2020 they estimate the economic loss with multipliers and so on of 1.3 billion euro devastate you know just as so on that basis I'd say D would you would you would you be willing to because it's referred to a number time since you've engaged with stakeholders the department is in case you stakeholders but would you yourself be willing to meet with industry representatives under the guise of the IFA for example to facilitate that you know is I think it's important that they real the stand in front of you and say here's what we think the potential of this industry is brass compression that we don't I don't personally I alluded to in my in my opening remarks the the the the late Richie Flynn who was the IFA yeah I met with Richie and I met would represent the sector have done so but well I'm asking you on the basis of today's concerns of this committee which were willing to meet with the industry center the sector that has ongoing engagement about me under the poppin time but the urgency I mean your respective community so in fact I don't represent across the community but I do very much understand and appreciate the potential care sector and and I have had ongoing and and I mean this was one of the first things that I did in the department on being appointed was to get this review underway and it was you know if significant undertaking for the people involved and their efforts I appreciate and I think it is clear that the the biggest to deal with the backlog but as I said I've had ongoing engagement and I continue to be able to engage the IFA which is respected representative body your plan requires I if they are constantly and notably I'm talking here and I don't think I've ever refused to meet them the aquaculture section of the until a vehicle to avoid an individual copy but a representative group of companies you would be one to me that's helpful that's the the the the the the net the next point down as the the aquaculture license to P word apparently they're postponing a number of determinations to 2019 novice state and when you have a high volume you've said I think it was a hundred and forty odd refusals negatives then you'd imagine this could be quite a number of appeals going through so again are used to illustrate that you've rigged I mean I would like if there was a an independent body dealing with licensing and a body dealing with with regulations and and and and and and ensuring the laws carried out but in the absence of that like would you be willing to put an additional resources into the aquaculture license appeals before something is they are independent and I'm not aware that they have raised any issues around resources being the issue you know individual appeals I think though you'll appreciate if there are ready postponing decisions to 2019 and they're about to face I mean you can be sure it may well be for reasons other than resources because I say this Minister and this is an important point to make because obviously we're concerned about the loss of economic growth in the coastal communities along the west of Ireland but it's important to say that that an efficient decision-making process and the palest process isn't everybody's interest so it's not it's not just industry it's those who may be concerned so so all interested parties here it's best for everybody if that process can be as efficient and timely as possible the point Minister is you know you would have taken out trade delegations to foreign countries and that's important work it's important work and you would talk about food harvest 2020 and you would love to find new markets particularly with the concern of it breaks and so on so you have company say involved in aquaculture they're trying to find new markets and they're trying to find new customers but those customers want to know that they have a consistent steady supply and the problem for this industry is they can't guarantee it because of their log jammed with appeals processes and they're stuck with very old licenses for 35 year old regulations that's you know that are not off to date that are not part of the modern aquaculture industry how can they possibly truly compete on the global market and that's it that's why I really think you need to meet the stakeholders as soon as possible because there have been asked to step up for Ireland to find the export markets to you know to satisfy the demands of new growing markets and customers yet they can't guarantee a consistent supply of that product and for five years ten years and you know I'm sure you see yourself what a huge problem that is again I mean if not from the racism today if you could meet with the the sectors and hear what their frustrations are and see with your department officials like whatever but I have a strong view that that's been failure right whatever people accept that or not that's my strong view I think it's backed up by considerable objective evidence well we have for today's but the future it's no good blatant about what's going wrong today is about how we're going to move forward how we're going to develop the potential of the industry how we're gonna have a system that's fair to all and I think if you were to meet the industry and hear directly from them I think that a big huge shell you know I really do yeah I am you referenced represented bodies they are continuously enrolled at my office and I've never refused to meet them I have it in the trade missions and are there is an insatiable global demand for seafood products and aquaculture is critical to that demand in in fact the production from farmed whether it is shellfish or fin fish is likely to be the source of the majority of that of meeting that majority of global demand then is you know the wild catch net sector so it is a sector that we are very anxious that we maximize our potential and bearing in mind when you compare figures of production mixture comparing life but like we have a specific niche market operation primarily in the Finnish side on organic status and certified organic status product is a commands a premium relative to other production systems and and by by ambition and the rationale like keep repeating this point for conducting the review was to see how we could unleash the potential for the sector and I have been open to meeting with all the stakeholders in that context and as I said in the context of the the licensing and a report I asked that that element of it would be prioritized and as I make no apologies for that but I am look I mean collaboration is is the hallmark of the the agri-food sector including fishing industry and the aquaculture side and it's it's it's working together that we will achieve the the potential that the sector has and as I said my doors always been open for that engagement okay sorry Jeff oh yeah Thank you Thank You chairperson Minister you just you mentioned briefly that the short head Corrick application area and that a decision had been made by the department I don't want to get into detail but just to get the timeline in relation to it the department was the better to the department 2011 there was a decision in 2015 and since 2015 it has been with the independent courts for appeals board so there is I mean as I said I don't wish to go into the detail I'm aware of the detail the case but I don't wish to go into it no but I mean there there are circumstances surrounding the case that that caused that time that time delay in it I understand that there was a requirement to re-engage in the public consultation process okay there's no application whereas 2014 in the department and in fresh application but to touch on that one of the recommendations of the actual review was that there should be increased resources to the independent agriculture or licensing appeals board is that something has happened or is that something that that you have committed to and did you plan and just to look at it overall Minister I mean the reason we asked you to come in today is that why we got when the officials were was the last day we teased out the issues in detail I certainly felt that we were being stonewalled in relation to the further and the implementation the full implementation of the actual report itself and in relation to the the timeline required the timeline associated with implementation the various recommendations and that's why we asked you is the political head of the department to come in and actually discuss the issue and I have to say day I do feel that we are being stonewalled by yourself as well little inflation and you come back the minutes but I do feel we're still being stonewalled by you in relation to actually grabbing this and ensuring that the various recommendations are being implemented now as I said you know at the outset my initial contributions one of the the key things which the the review committee said was that there should be an implementation report or an implementation plan put together looking at the 30 recommendations assigning responsibility for them and putting a timeline in place for their implementation and also assessing resource implications of implications now when we discussed this a committee before we have what we were requesting was that there would be a review or an implementation plan put together by it now today you still you're still and that's why we call you here you still haven't committed to actually doing that implementation plan no it's accepted there'll be different timelines associated with different recommendation implementation different recommendations but as a basic starting point in terms of responding to the reports 30 recommendations Minister I feel it's essential that you actually come back and that you under the department publish an implementation plan with regard to those 30 saying if your agreement that the 30 each of those 30 should be put should be implemented and if you are how it's going to go about your are you going to go about achieving them and the dead the timeline for to do it and the resource implications and if we see in assessing that there there is a need for additional resources and if it's felt that allocating that those additional resources could lead to you know improve goals in this sector and you know improve financial retirement to the economy then it would be it'll make eminent sense to look at how you could allocate additional resources towards that and you know to get to the nub of the issue I am looking for a commitment from you today that you would actually come forward and put that implementation plan together was timelines associated with it and just a couple of other points Minister one of the recommendations of the report was that a reasonable time scale for license determinations the report indicated that should be six months that's what the reports indicated that reasonable time line should be for all new applications after January the 1st 2018 it should be it should be a six-month time line another one of the recommendations said that work should commence immediately in relation to vet to developing new legislation the group recommended the review group recommended that work commenced immediately on the preparation of a new aquaculture legislation having regard to best practice in other jurisdictions and other relevant consenting systems here all of the relevant consent existence here in Ireland that was an immediate recommendation of the report the new lady no when I asked the officials the last day in regard to this where the answer was that work hadn't really commenced in the legislation because the resources weren't there to do it can I ask you for an update on that today a minister and can I also ask that you actually if said ledges and commenced but it would there would commence immediately and that you would allocate allocate the resources to it because certainly if the feedback I've got is that in relation to the development of the sector one of the stumbling blocks says that the fact that there isn't the streamlined licensing process there are pacific timelines is leading to a reluctance to actually commence new new licensing applications and to actually proceed with that just in relation to your opening contribution was regard to to finish licensing and you indicated that the department are scheduled to formally request operators to submit environmental impact assessments in the coming before the end of the year and will then engage with the with with applicants in relation to those an environmental impact assessments and then you go on to indicate that this represents a significant response to the recommendations of the independent agriculture licensing review group listen i you know why that needs to be done I mean that's sort of that's the biggest point you're making there in relation to the finfish licensing application that you're indicating is a significant response to the review group it's an essential part of furthering those licenses but I mean I would imagine there would need to be clearer timelines associated with how we can expect those to actually those EIA s to be actually dealt with and answers going back and matters moved on once once you receive those and finally chair press suggest in relation to the separation of the licensing licensing powers to the development function within the department and we had the consumer and computation protection commissioner here last week talking to us in relation to the proposed unfair trading practices directive coming out of Europe and very clearly saying to us that she felt that there needed to be a new and used sector regulator established to implement the the directive coming from Europe of the Garrett unfair trading practices because of the fact that it was in conflict with their remit of consumer and competition protection because it was more about the producer and the consumer and competition protection and therefore there would be tension between those two functions and that it wouldn't be appropriate to have people within the same body simply having that tension or the same person experiencing that tension of one within themselves that that's needed to separate two separate bodies actually addressing those those objectives and similarly like I mean while licensing as a function of the department here development can often be in tension with it and you know yet we have a situation for us the same people are you know we're dealing with that that those functions which there should be a healthy tension you know often I think it's something that would need to be considered but again it's irregular it's one of the thirty recommendations and I think if you were to come forward and we were to see the implementation plan that's something which could be fleshed out in which could be addressed and we could get a clear line of sight in terms of what the department's response is going to be to it I just just at the latter point I mean and like the Department of Agriculture runs agricultural schemes it determines the nature of the scheme it invites the applicants it determines the outcome of the application and it police's the compliance with the terms of regulations I've never heard you deputy make the point because I don't think it's sustainable or you know the case is made that the Department shouldn't be responsible for all of that and you make a different case for the fishing industry for the agriculture side as does review panel makes that kiss yeah but III don't I I'm not convinced by that argument I'm not convinced about an argument that and it appears to be borne out of a belief that in some way it might be you know it might be less onerous I don't believe that we all operate under the same law so in many respects I would say be careful what you wish for because it might not be as as understanding of breaches or of compliance issues okay perhaps the department if they can just make an interjection brief one there will listen if that's your position fair enough I mean it should be discussed and teased all right but it is the review and it goes back to my point in relation to the fact that you know we're hearing from you today that you're not convinced in that points in fact in fact you don't believe is the right way to go but it makes the point very much that well we therefore need as an implementation plan with regard to those reviews because if it's at the moment the industry is working off that review and there's already recommendations which that is one but we haven't had a clear response from the department that that isn't something it's going to pursue if that's the case then put the implementation plan together and say that in relation to that one you don't think that's one that should be pursued and let's let's have it clearer and less tepid all the thing I appreciate your observations I as I said at the outset but what I thought was the most critical recommendation was to clear and the report does say this itself here the backlogs that's what it says is the most critical service that we could do to this sector and that's what we're doing is dealing with that and the rest is secondary windows legislation required and some of it you know the difficulty in getting fisheries legislation through the house has to be started first of all Minister had to have support as well deputy when we try it so I mean I hear I hear the points that are being made just just on resources I mean I'm advised that that the last time they are cultural license Appeals Board sought additional resources there were people additional resources to sew corn desk I think that might have been if not last year before last serious pressure comma not them yeah but if they I mean I'm saying there's no outstanding ask from from them in respective of so as I said there are other issues that cause delays other than resource resources and in fact there has been additional resources given to the section as well in the department I mean IIIi don't propose to kind of change tack in respect of the the overall arching imperative to deal with the the the backlog and we've touched on some of the other recommendations I think there would be mixed views in the industry about some of the other recommendations put the parity remains to clear the backlog I would imagine in 2019 as we proceed with the same level of progress hopefully that you know we can begin to look in more detail at some of the other recommendations but this is the critical issue I think I mean to just to come back at that point Minister I don't think it's good enough to say that because that's the key priority within the review groups recommendations in the backlog rightly so it is it is a key the key priority which does deserve the biggest amount of resources and they you know top status in relation to getting to getting movement right but I don't think because you're saying that's the key one and you're moving on that there's okay that we don't die some that we leave the others we conserve the resources and yeah but listen I mean there's there's 30 different recommendations there if someone like you indicated requires is nicer than you toaster you translate the six months recommendation I mean and I need you equally refer I never appreciate the six months is a target that's important to have I would suspect it's extremely difficult to meet that target and you know we've been referenced by the Scottish example the Scottish licensing rate is it is about two years list of is extremely hard to meet that six months target and let's get a response from me as part of an implementation plan outlining why it's extremely hard to meet is there training what steps you're gonna take to actually further it because at the moment what we have is what I'm getting here is that we have a report the thirty recommendations in the fire large most of that report is gonna gather but more dose Michelle for the biggest-ever we get to deal with it and look at it in any more detail apart from the couple of key pressing matters which which you are dealing will do which the brook water I didn't like this deal with the backlog but but Carolyn can I ask today Minister that you actually would come back with a comprehensive response was regard to those thirty I mean flashing or the response you're giving us here today but let's get it in writing get it in implementation once I have sufficient progress made on the licences issue I don't propose to to ask the division which is challenged to achieve that backlog I don't propose to task them with other issues that are less important than that issue it may listen it may not it may not take a massive resource application simply to put a time where the plan in relation to Minister would we start to miss the moment 19 which I don't propose to miss you said two-thirds of the industry wait what we understand it's 3/4 so 3/4 of the value of the industry right is in sound right well okay we'll say we go with your figure of 65 million and 57 oh okay we're a very substantial a substantial majority we can dispute that but a substantial majority of the sector is in salmon right and what your officials sorry there are 38 fin fish licenses there are over yeah this is about trying to get the overall aquaculture industry obviously giving people the right to object which is absolutely their rights and be a fair efficient decision-making process sometimes they'll be successful sometimes they won't but the decisions are made sharply and efficiently but all I'm saying to you and repeat it again Minister is that that unfortunately the call you're making right now is failing the the failing to turn around this sector in terms of the large share of its mantilla that that that we have asked in terms of 30 right I mean this report was post in May 2017 it's a year and a half ago 18 months ago and we have made substantial progress in dealing with the backlog cynthia's is there are 30 recommendations and none of them that's critical and here you are in houses there Rob this committee a year and a half a year and a half later hold on and I've read out to you that we are 10% of the Scottish industry 10% of a compartment we're less and we're producing organic but they're the now exposed shorty no no no no that the facts are were 10% of the Scottish industry right in terms of actual hard numbers and value to the communities that we represent 10% we're less than the feral violence that's the scale of the failure that we have had the minister and what your response to our committee is today that can wait two more years that sector can wait two more years for us to look for a real solution I'm gonna focus on the low-hanging fruits and I'm not gonna address the recommendations and I'm minister and like I'm gonna appeal to you again today to please open your mind I know you rely on these senior officials for your gains but there are other people with expert knowledge out there too okay that's the stakeholders and I'm appealing to you today as soon as possible down the room would sit down to stakeholders though what I'm saying to you as soon as possible because we're honest with me I'm stunned we're we're out here because we're yeah we're hearing that we're making yeah no no no no no and start installing that I've read I do statistics to you today we're a year and a half on and you're no way given us any assurance that you're going to address all of the recommendations are addressed the Chancellor has to eat grace senator to acknowledge the progress that has been made on the most pressing issue the most president two-thirds three-quarters two-thirds and your numbers three quarters and the industry's numbers of the overall sector is going to wait two years has to wait two years after all they've read out to you and you don't think that needs to be thought about needs to be reflected upon maybe keep an open mind until you meet them to see what can be done are you just gonna rely on the same department officials that have got us into this mess in the first place are you gonna rely on their advice are you gonna talk to the very people who have been failed that's what I say to you today I should reflect on the go I have no reflection the objective evidence is shocking grandstanding that's the grandstanding minister you're they're having cheap shots at officials if they'll have the opportunity to these officials have presided over a calamity a calamity in terms of the sector and still we're here where we are today dealt with European Court of Justice ruling chance to apply their withdraws more detail you'd indicated I think it's 38 or the thirty-eight applications in the finfish sector and they're going to be requested now before the end of the year to submit and assessments to the to the facts that's a critical part for the licensing process yes so can you take us from there that they'll get that and over the end of the year can you give us timelines in terms of what sort of targets you're working off for the completion of those to sit for decisions then on those licenses each each each individual accepting but exemption to vigilance you give a general idea as to what type of time scales were talking a Persian I I don't want that I I don't want to do that deputy because if I if I mention a time line but there won't be any undue delay on the department side what is it so why don't we talk mean considering that other countries can do it in it and say two years over all like you know what I mean we just give you a million this year for me like if there's outstanding documentation that has to be soft or yeah but as quickly as is possible how long is a piece of string in there sense like in the sense of I mean we we are making progress and we intend to make progress on these as well these are more complex licensed processes then then then than the Shelf etc but we will be commencing this process by requesting environmental impact statements before the end of this year from the sector said how many do you need implementation implementation plan you know you're not agreeing minister to come back in relation to points and and therapy and whether the partner Authority stands attend to drive that the the principal recommendation to the point where I'm satisfied that we will achieve that eleventh effect on the other recommendations there in thereafter but bear in mind in terms of some of the other recommendations that have been progress made already in terms of resource allocation okay the winners they come in today and fairness 1020 with no case under cultural licensing process and convinced a forest in this debate you will be in in this in the medium term again to give us a lot of tears on where two processes ash so I want ID ministers officials for attending today's meeting for green the committee of today's for that cultural icing process as there's no further business to meet you stand adjourned at the 2z6 November a half three in three two months thank you