uh the Biden of this campaign as much as he's an old man who's clearly 70 was he 77 78 I think 78 yeah and who clearly is is not as articulate as he as he once was and he's found it quite hard to counter her than he was once yeah well I mean he he has his own unique way of expressing himself but I mean he gave a speech uh to the New York uh the sort of high rollers in in Wall Street the New York economic Club it you know just listening to it it reminded me of the the notorious pepper speech Pig speech by Boris Johnson well it was actually in some it was worse Boris Johnson's Peppa Pig speech featured all sorts of little additions which just seemed infantile and and pointless you know a diversion of what he was saying Donald Trump was was saying stuff which to an economically literate audience which was nonsensical TV debate between Cara Harris and Donald Trump and you guys I know you're like you're American you're American politics it's going to be such a moment isn't it another defining moment Adam yeah I people were saying oh debates are boring they don't really change very much and uh don't think we actually distinguished ourselves with debates during the recent election campaign over here uh people again were saying that about the United States that they just become routine and didn't matter what you did uh thinking back to uh Donald Trump's the way he treated Hillary Clinton didn't in the end affect the result but we had that encounter at the end of June uh which basically knocked Joe Biden out of the race for the presidency and open the door to Kamala Harris now Tuesday night we've got kamla Harris as the Democratic uh candidate actually meeting Donald Trump for the first time the two of them have never spoken to each other they've only ever been in you know the same chamber uh of Congress so that in itself is if you if you want the drama of Face Off is pretty dramatic but where people differ as to who who has the most to lose in this encounter now obviously if uh kamla Harris was an absolute disaster that would be bad but there's nothing in her record which suggests that she will be an absolute disaster and my feeling is that at the moment the momentum I mean we can argue about the polls but she's certainly pulled up on where Biden was that the momentum is with her and actually I think all the pressure is on Trump to show that he can uh well he would like to show that he can beat her dismiss her after all he's called her Dum and a bum and say she doesn't know anything so if she actually you know throws that back in his face that would be bad for him but he need he needs to be the whole Trump thing depends on looking like a winner and I think the question is whether he can come out of this looking like a winner tomorrow and possibly halt uh the momentum now developing behind and to to give credit where it's due or half due to you Adam it was some months ago I think around maybe I don't know when was it last Christmas when you you told us you didn't just feel it was possible you put money on the the next American election featuring neither of the candidates wouldn't have wouldn't have them both yeah oh did you which you on your back yeah well I I my prediction was was correct because I I just felt so both of them were so flawed and also I do think there's a thing about presidential elections but a thing about you know the United States United States likes novelty and and this was such a you know Biden Trump was such a rematch I just couldn't see we w n over PS although the latest Pauls New York Times shows some leveling off of K Harris's Spike ahead of this this debate and I think part of the argument from people like Nate Silva who's a leading poll analyst is that the change of leader had the effect and maybe a bit more of a of a convention so they got the convention bounce before the convention there hasn't been very much of a convention bounce in the past but you're right made up an awful L ground Tuesday night Wednesday early morning is going to be so so big and I don't know this is where we get into the Realms of just chitchat speculation I wonder how that's going to play out it's going to be it is definitely going to be good to see uh to the extent that it's done in this debate and it can be done by Donald Trump it's going to be good to see her positions on policy tested more than they maybe have been she gave a proper interview quite recently and there are question still to be to be asked so I think that's a very valid valid point to make on the other Donald Trump I mean he does speak pretty freely to those bits of the media that he wants to speak to and he gives all sorts of news conferences and certainly plenty of rallies and a lot of it is false incoherent non and nonsensical I mean and it seems to be priced it in you know by so many voters as well as by a chunk of the media yes so I think that's why this will be really interesting because it will be you know is it about policy is it about rhetoric is it about Landing no singers and and that might be made more difficult by the fact that there is a mute button involved here so it's not going to be a you know clamoring over one another kind of a debate but I think Adam's right it it's really Donald Trump who has quite a lot on the line here and there were many who thought when he was shot well that's it he's going to run away with this election there's no one who can stop him and actually that The Narrative and the momentum would be so behind him that it was almost a waste of time talking about it and in fact that hasn't quite gone that way I think kamla Harris is part of it but there are some commentators who believe that Trump has really suffered actually as a result of what did happen to him and that he hasn't yet recovered his Mojo and so I think this will be a major moment for him for his campaign for policy yes but also to see if he still has that that sparkle that is for some people very attractive for others a deep turn off your rights but is is the reason why a lots of people did flock to him in the first place and I think without that it's difficult to see what he really does have if he doesn't have a policy platform that's coherent yeah also he is now uh the Biden of this campaign as much as he's an old man who's clearly so he was he 77 78 I think yeah and who clearly is is not as articulate as he as he once was and he's found it quite hard to counter her that he was once yeah well I mean he he has his own unique way of expressing himself but I mean he gave a speech uh to the New York uh the sort of high rollers in New in Wall Street the New York economic CL and it you know just listening to it it reminded me of the the notorious pepper speech Pig speech by Boris Johnson well it was actually in some it was worse Boris Johnson's Peppa Pig speech featured all sorts of little additions which just seemed infantile and and pointless you know just diversion of what he was saying Donald Trump was was saying stuff which to an economic literate audience which was nonsensical he was talking about raising trillions of dollars he discussed this at length raising trillions of dollars by means of tariffs on countries especially China well they do not have that effect they're paid by importers and passed on to Consumers and they're inflationary which is why I think if it does turn to a policy discussion and he can't bring that that you know that real heft especially without the mute with the mute button involved which means that he can't talk over he can't you know hit back with those onliners it's very difficult to see how he can make an impact and I think he has to the mystery remains why he's still such a strong Contender because everyone would say this is on a knife edge I mean he's partly help well helped in a big way by the electoral college in the United States but I think the rest of the world is just absolutely a gast yeah it is a kind of a world unto itself and you use the word mystery in some ways it is not a mystery it is it is a cultural divide which is just so deep that it accounts for for that some of the things that that Donald Trump has done and said this weekend they Lear every other weekend going back as far as you like if a tenth of that had been replicated by the Democratic Runner they would have been toast but Donald Trump marches on because it's not just about policy no it's true it's not it's not just about policy it's about character and I think you know for KLA Harris there are a lot of people who don't yet know who she is don't yet really understand kind of what she's about you know there's even questions about her accent whether her accent's real or fake and that kind of thing so she's you know she's got things she's got counter too and she has got to get people to understand what she's about and who she is but I think for Trump again you know the stakes are just far higher especially as Adam says given that he is now the older candidate and he doesn't seem to have been able to land a coherent strategy against her in the way that he could against bid and it's a plus for her to be seen which isn't necessary exactly which isn't the same another feature of the of the polling and it's common to what's going on in American politics to our politics to European Politics the same phenomenon in the German election and the French election and I wish we had more time to talk about it I'll pick it up tomorrow tomorrow as well