as tensions between Israel and the US escalate yet further we speak to two legends of American politics we have David Axel rod and Mike Murphy the hacks on tap are on Unholy I'm Jonathan Friedland of the guardian in London and I'm unique L of Channel 12 in t [Music] Unholy tuj on the news uh really looking forward to that uh conversation later in the program what are we going to call it a podcasting double date uh it's a bit like that because they're they're a podcasting Duo of legendary standing it was actually you who got me into that and to hack on Tab thank you for admitting that I was wondering if you had conveniently forgotten that or did you remember very much not very much not and I am a complete devotee of that brilliant podcast and we are lucky enough to have both of them with us later on so there's tons to talk about yes of course they also do the podcast with Robert Gibbs next time we have to improve and do it with the five of us but now it's going to be uh the four of us coming on later um you know these kind of are the days where we cling to any kind of escapism right so there's only one question I have for you this week Jonathan fredland where is Kate oh the I know you know I know you know because you're British and you're a journalist and you write Thrillers for a living I know you know the real answer and you're hiding it from me and that just makes me feel it it offends me really I've had the crazy conversations even in this country we're in a war and you cannot believe you know people calling me up with their theories it's completely gone wholly International there and I saw the video of the two of them her and William visiting this Farm shop and the second I looked at it I thought that's not going to convince people people are going to say that's not really her cuz she did a tiny bit different just in the sense that people always do and I thought that people are going to say it's deep fake and sure enough within seconds it hadn't the whole purpose of it was obviously a PR exercise to reassure people it didn't do the job no I think it's acting as this quite useful sort of outlet for people who are you know share our obsessions that it's one of those things that you can sort of obsess over and it isn't you know horrible or uh really important and that's the job of escapism usually sport does that um but people have done that about Kate look at the center of it is something you know really difficult for her she's obviously had some medical thing and she's recovering from that but in in her world being a royal that's never good enough and so people Obsessed the latest Twist on it was that you know staff at the hospital where she was admitted there is an allegation that they were trying to you know look into her medical records to see exactly what it was probably part you know was it curiosity or was it they were thinking that will sell uh the people who did the big picture they'll have got money for it the photograph and the video and so on this is an industry but it's been one of those things that is uh just kept people fixated all over the world even where you are where you really do have other things to think about maybe maybe we do maybe we do another thing people were really obsessing about but in the Jewish World specifically we're getting a Jewish James Bond I think this is a milestone the first Jewish James Bond Aaron Taylor Johnson British actor rumored to be the next Jame Bond you kind of know that the first Jewish James Bond film is going to be called still not a doctor that's very very good I think I think it works I think it works still not a doctor that's very good or you know his brother's a lawyer um that could be the sequel that could be the Quantum of Solace equivalent I think it's very important that we're doing this podcast because this is what we need to be talking about instead of all of the other things we need to be talking about yeah this is the big news we will get into uh one of the big running stories which is this increasing Fallout between Washington and televis with our guests we'll talk about that uh and there's so much to say about all of that but on the ground in a way it just comes round and round and round yeah it's Groundhog Day I mean really I I would think of anyone not being in Israel for a few weeks coming back back and the news is the same right the hostage deal is still stuck the IDF returns to alifa hospital because Kamas has returned to alifa hospital there's no solution in the North many Israelis still displaced we're not moving forward and honestly the only thing that seems to be moving forward but moving forward down a cliff as you said is the relationship between Biden and uh the Biden Administration and uh uh the Netanyahu government so after we recorded on Thursday uh of course a a watershed speech by uh Senator Chuck Schumer the Senate Majority Leader and the highest ranking Jewish elected official calling for Israeli elections this had harsh reactions particularly in netanyahu's own party accusing Schumer of of interfering with internal issues of an ally Neto himself in front of the knesset uh slamming the what he called some in Israel that are cooperating with the Americans to prevent uh an entry into Rafa in any case it is very clear that we are in a situation uh when we look at all of the you know um things that are being said out loud or not out loud uh we're in a in a very tumultuous point in the relationship between these two people and between the administrations yeah um that was a huge thing as you say came after we had very inconsiderate of uh Senator Schumer that after we had recorded our podcast last week I'm just noting that Mark him down for that a really significant speech particularly because it was coming from him somebody who is and he declared it himself in this very long and sort of heartfelt nuanced speech that he had uh he was speaking absolutely as a friend of Israel in his kishkas as Joe Biden might put it and yet he just had obviously reached that breaking point we'll talk with our guest later about the politics of all that it came meanwhile as on the other side of the aisle Donald Trump was scathing about Jews who vote Democratic suggesting they sort of hated themselves uh that the only you know good Jews were those who supported him uh and the rest could be written off so one way or another it is such a dominant theme currently in American politics and and we'll talk about that with uh David Axelrod and Mike Murphy uh later on in the podcast but the point of friction now is over the question of arm supplies from from the United States to Israel partly under pressure from Congress last month Joe Biden changed the rules that said anybody who receives US military aid has to commit in writing to abide by international law and that would include a pledge to facilitate not stand in the way of delivery of humanitarian Aid the America's ambassador to Israel Jack Lou has signed a letter saying yep Israel promises that they are in compliance normally that would be enough but that is not the case this time the US Administration wants to certify for itself that Israel is indeed allowing the delivery of humanitarian Aid now last week we said on the podcast that Daniel hagari the IDF spokesman has briefed the international press saying you know we're going to flood the Zone with Aid um Gaz is going to be flooded with Aid it was written up as this dramatic pivot in the Israeli position as as far as the rest of the world is concerned that hasn't happened people haven't seen that there have not been pictures on the news of hundreds of trucks rolling through in line with what hagari had promised this flood of Aid and therefore the Americans are saying we need to see the proof of this before we will say yeah you're good to go and the arms supplies continue and that the deadline for that under these rules is Sunday so that is you know serious business and the the sort of sounds around it the noise around it the noises around it are not good for Israel you had Tony blinken Secretary of State saying 100% of the gazan population are in acute need of food and at risk of uh starvation you had you the head of us Aid the main you know American governmental Aid agency Samantha power saying that the Gaza is on the brink of famine these are senior US government officials this is not NOS or un groups that Israelis could you know dismiss as anti-israel and you know it's not significant in terms of volume but Canada um not a big arm Supply to Israel in terms of amount have said they are not going to supply arms anymore you know an important Ally of Israel and therefore arroy in the wind the allies of Israel can say no to sending arms and the cause in all places around the world media and in you know governmental uh corridors is about this issue of hunger and Aid and famine it's that's the point of tension and you've even got Jake Sullivan National Security adviser saying words aren't enough it's action that matters so you know it's not impossible that I would say it's unlikely that America won't in the end certify and send more arms I suspect that's what Joe Biden will do but the fact we have got to this point that because of world outrage and shock at what is being called a risk of a man-made famine in Gaza uh the America Israel's number one Ally there is at least discussion talk of turning off the supply of arms so I want to say a few things about this you're right that the link is made uh that this discussion about the supply of arms is completely and directly connected to the situation um in Gaza we did speak last week about Danielle Hagar's at length about Danielle Hagar's statement saying we're flooding Gaza with um a now this is what Israel did I I would try and argue that this is now become more a PR problem than a strategic problem because Israel did open Route 96 which is the route that brings in aid from the north actually from the area of tragically devastated bayi into uh Northern Gaza and indeed uh blinkin said yesterday in Saudi Arabia we've seen some progress including a new access point that was opened he meant that there was a uh documented attempt by uh the IDF to bring in International correspondence to Kim Shalom to show that kind of long line of trucks coming in of course the cooperation going on with the with the peer uh centcom and the IDF uh trying to bring in Aid I think some of this is indeed the IDF making that attempt but maybe not showing it enough to the world definitely something that Israel needs to focus on if it's said that it needs to flood that wants to flood the area it has to show that it's flooding the area look Israel is very concerned and that is that is clear about the prospect of some sort of arms uh conversation even the mere conversation of it happening in the Democratic party I think is a problem uh for Israel even the decision if the decision at the end and I think you're right about what the decision will be but I think that is a problem it has to do with Israel thinking about what the next moves in the war are and I think it visa what's happening in the north that is a critical question I think we should look deeper into what is actually happening uh and what is always the gap between what Netanyahu is saying and what nety is doing I mean look at how interesting this is on the one hand netan was speaking to a gathering of Republican Senators uh Chuck Schumer didn't let him speak to the Democratic uh uh senators and he's saying there Schumer speech is wholly inappropriate there are people around the Prime Minister uh saying that the United States should focus on toppling Kamas and not topping the Israeli government this is all B bellico rhetoric but what is netan actually doing Jonathan he's sending right his top men and his closest advisers Ron durmer and tan neby the National Security adviser to Washington with the plans to invade Rafa now what what does that actually mean if we turn back the clock five months remember SEC secretary blinkin sat in a meeting of an Israeli War cabinet the first time in history and looked at the war plans the United States sent aircraft carriers here why am I saying all this because Israel is clearly dependent upon the United States in this conflict from day one that is a situation that was created maybe that was the situation required but netan allowed for this he knew it then and he knows it now so I don't see how this continues that's what I'm trying to say even with a Maverick like Netanyahu that internally he's saying all these Bellic Co statements about how he's standing tough in front of the United States while sending his own advisers to the United States to essentially show them the war plan so at the end of the day something's got to give here and when he says something as significant as their ele in Israel cooperating with the United States to uh prevent an invasion of Rafa what he's actually I think in a way saying if we're going to have to stop the war he's preparing that as an excuse I wanted a total Victory but there were elements here that we cooperating with the United States to prevent me from arriving at that total victory yeah that's a good reading of how he operates that he's preparing the blame and that's um that's inke keeping with him and how he rolled just on the point about sending his political left tenants Ron durma s and neby there are some in Washington who think that itself showed he wasn't serious because he instead of sending the what the uh Jake Sullivan had said he was expecting this inter agency team of military intelligence humanitarian officials who would talk Tas if I can use that term on the podcast about getting thec is not on Unholy instead he's sending people who will make the political case rhetorical figures I'm not sure I'm not saying that's right or wrong but in terms of how Washington see it I'm not sure that impressed them of netanyahu's seriousness the only point I would make is it this it's all about this this this hunger and famine issue is massive outside Israel I you know inside Israel people talking about the day after and various other things all people can see outside and this is what Biden and blinken Sullivan power they're all responding to because it's their constituents all they can see is one Aid official after another whether it's un world food program after another saying it's famine it's starvation it's man-made even people who were you know who had it got their heads around the military offensive bombardment and so on are drawing the line at this so it's a massive political headache by the way just we should clock it seems as if the idef themselves are aware of this and they have reports this week that they have expanded the office there that deals with the threat of international prosecutions and mindful perhaps of the uh International court of justice which we remember one of its provisional measures was you've got to get humanitarian Aid through so even though Israel is convinced the 96 guge and so on that it's letting Lots in outside the perception is that not nearly enough Aid is in and that there is a famine Israel has to deal with that perception because it is in diplomatic and political terms a very serious reality now okay we've set the stage but now let's go into all that with our special guests this [Music] week David Axelrod is a former senior advisor in the White House and chief strategist not one but two successful presidential campaigns for Barack obam now an analyst on CNN and co-host of hacks on tap and Mike Murphy is a political consultant with a reputation burnished over several decades a former adviser to John McCain Mitt Romney Jeb Bush Arnold Schwarzenegger can't forget that among many others he also is the co-host of hex on tap and we're very glad to have them both we are delighted to have you both gentlemen it is a kind of podcast double date because it's two co-hosts with two co-hosts and there's a lot of geometry here I want but but I was going to kick off with you David because we've been talking a lot y and I over the weeks and months about Joe Biden and how he deals with this situation I'm interested to know whether you think there is any moment because we can see his frustration do you think there comes a moment any scenario where he picks up the phone to Benjamin netan and says I've asked nicely that hasn't seemed to work enough is enough I'm going to cut off the arm supplies now I I don't know the answer to that I I think that he will be under enormous pressure to do that if uh if Netanyahu continues to thumb his nose uh at him uh you know I think that Biden look I think his very in his very being he is a natural and strong supporter of Israel believes in Israel I think when he flew there it was not a political Mission I think it was a a mission of heart and soul uh but he did offer an admonition even on that day when he arrived which is don't make the mistake that America made don't get uh so carried away with uh Vengeance and retribution that you create uh other issues for yourself and I think that Netanyahu is very much trying uh trying Biden's uh patience what was your reading by the way of of uh Senator Schumer's speech which was you know it was a watershed yeah what did you think yeah listen I think that um I I keep saying you can hold two thoughts at once and I speak as uh you know my father was a refugee from the PO gums and you know he could talk from firsthand experience about stepping over dead bodies and looking for bread and having his home blown up so I uh you know I feel very strongly about Israel and was appalled and sickened and outraged and beyond words about what happened on October 7th and I believe Israel has the right to defend itself but you can hold two thoughts at once you can feel that way and still be heartbroken and sickened by the images of uh Palestinian children and uh you know the sort of Devastation there I don't object to uh the essence of that critique by Senator Schumer that more discretion should have been applied and should be applied uh even as Israel pursues their attackers but but um where I probably would have drawn the line is on the issue of Israeli elections I think it was a mistake for him to insert himself there and had I been advising him I would have told him no I don't I don't think I would go there because the last thing you want to do is sort of turn this in into sort of a kind of colonial question like we're going to tell you how to run your internal politics I think that was probably too far Mike how are you seeing all this yeah it's a complicated mix because on one hand you have the National Security dimmension and on the other hand you have domestic politics in both places at a fever pitch you've got netanyahu's in political trouble but a crisis like this holds them in office on our side you have pressure particularly on the Democratic side from younger voters who are not as lockstep pro Israel uh as American Democrats used to be and you have a nervous White House and a very tough reelect with almost a poll coming out every day that's you know scary so the political people are squeezing I'm sure can't Netanyahu declare Victory and Tamp this thing down because we've been there you know under the coals and we're taking hits here how long can this go on don't make us throw away our reelect because Benjamin Netanyahu has the foot on the gas for his own political reasons that's how political people think you know through the prism so I think you know to your earlier question to David would would the president ever call up Netanyahu and do that I don't think he would but in these situations you know allies have a way of communicating hopefully mostly privately but also through the Press it's kind of like going to the chimpanzee house and trying to interpret all the grunts and gestures so we're in a deep Grunt and gesture thing going on where there's public kind of hints and pushes back Channel I don't think there's an ultimatum but there's definitely pressure I mean the one thing that would be a huge mistake in Poli would be to publicly threaten that because if the Israelis are ever completely isolated their security situation gets a lot worse and all their enemies are encouraged so you know as a stalwart Ally of Israel I'm sure all Biden's foreign policy people saying we can't go to there particularly publicly you know we can't give oxygen to the enemies but back Channel It's Time and this has happened in the excuse me the American Israeli relationship before Nixon Administration particularly in 73 and 74 so my my guess is there's a lot of quiet arm twisting and because the American and Israeli political communities are linked there's probably a lot of back Channel stuff coming from other Israeli political leaders saying we got a BB problem here turn up the heat a little uh but you know the big political clock is ticking for everybody and Beyond the Strategic imperatives the the politicians in Biden's world who would like to see him reelected and I think Schumer is a good example are getting more and more nervous and just don't want to accept the status quo for weeks more I just think that first of all Mike's absolutely right this is a complicated Matrix because you have electoral politics over uh you know overarching uh these or overhanging these judgments both here and there um I do think that uh there will be more and more of a public clamor particularly among some elements of the of of the democratic party on this issue and there's some Senators have already said so on this issue of funding if the Israelis uh are uh you know brush Biden's concerns aside so but and then there is the other issue that Mike hints at which is that um Netanyahu is there's going to be uh based on this is not me saying what should happen this is what's going to happen there's going to be a judgment once this war is over about how it happened and about him and he knows that the thing that Schumer did for him was to give him a foil because I'm sure no matter where you are on the Spectrum in Israel um you know you don't want Americans sort of telling Israelis when they should hold their elections and and BB jumped all over that so in that sense uh Schumer was did did BB a favor to looking of that just I'll just say I looked at that I said does he realize he's helping him like does he realize that what he's saying is actually bolstering netan inside Israel just as my first reaction to that very specifically actually because of that point you made about give the the line about you now need to hold an election that's where he got into the meddling but if we talking about Schumer and netan yonni has a most fabulous story about I just have to tell you I heard this from the person the person in the room who's a leader in the Jewish Community this happened in the 80s okay so Schumer was a congressman he had just renovated his house in Brooklyn nanyo obviously an up incoming shiny Ambassador in the UN um was invited to dinner and then tried to explain to the people sitting there that um what the Middle East is so he took a big bottle of Pepsi Cola shook it you know and said the Middle East if it's contained it's fine and then opened it and said but this is what happens when it's not and the whole thing sprayed on the ceiling of the newly renovated House of Chuck Schumer and that was the last time Neto was ever invited according to the people in the room who uh watched this so that was the beginning of the relationship well yeah Schumer just opened up his own can and it spilled all over his own ceiling here I think no just we have a problem and I think most democracies too that our powerful legislative leaders often see no reason why they should not enter the world stage and they're not that sophisticated in it Nancy Pelosi going to Taiwan that was a bungle Schumer deciding to jump in the middle of this thing you know they it's just irresistible for them because there are so important in domestic politics they figure well about time for the UN to hear from me too and I I think that is a Tim tested thing that is just a mistake but here we are you know and I'm sure there are really politicians who'd love to come talk to the Republican Congress and stir all that up against Biden as we speak Johnson speaker Johnson has confirmed that he is going to invite Netanyahu to speak to Congress you know I I would say you're right that these guys are not you want the officials of government to speak for uh the country on these National Security issues the the administration to speak for them but Schumer uh and Johnson also are concerned about uh reelecting their members and so they're playing their own politics here I think by the way just just just my opin what a dreadful mistake that would be if Netanyahu came here and addressed the Congress I thought it was a mistake when he came here before the vote on the Iran uh nuclear treaty you know it is it always been for years and years and years the consens the the uh notion of the Israeli governments that uh not to involve itself in American domestic politics and I understand Schumer crossed this line but this seem seems like a terrible idea at a time when you have a Democratic president uh to come and a Democratic Senate to come here and plunge into the politics of this country and I hope he's smart enough not to do it it'll only weaken Israel's position Visa the American Alliance because it's a Vortex that'll that as David said it's always been a bipartisan consensus to have a strong you know alliance with Israel and when you start picking the partisan side for every friend you make you make an enemy and it would be a dreadful mistake for Netanyahu to do that yeah I mean it's part of though a long pattern with him which is almost whether it's deliberate or not but to turn Israel into a partisan issue that's the thing that Netanyahu has broken over these two you know 10 15 years he's been doing that you know in began in Earnest in the Obama period I mean in a way this goes to a question about you know wider politics whether that ship has perhaps already sailed and I was going to ask you both whether you think Israel has become another culture War issue in a way like maske wearing was during covid where if you're blue you line up for the Palestinians especially if you're younger and if you're in a you know Red State you line up for the Israelis and it's just now going to be one of those indicators about where you are what what TV you watch what what you know what brand you of coffee you drink it's it's it's going to be a distant memory when Israel was something that Americans could agree on I'm not sure the ship has sailed but it's definitely become unmowed and it's kind of floating around the harbor Basin there's a fractur in relationship and pouring gasoline on it like this is would be a critical mistake I'm sure there people grown-ups in the Israeli security establishment are saying how isolated can we allow ourselves to be become we're losing the EU fast we we already have problems in other areas the Chinese want disorder the Russians disorder and and now we're getting in a political spat of the Americans you know they should read their Church Hill stay close to the Americans because that is the ticket um and I you have to wonder BB's personal interests are very much intertwined politically uh you know with the Strategic situation and I hope he has his priorities straight when he's making these decisions yeah no I I agree with that I I also agree with Mike that I I look I know the Democratic uh party pretty well I mean there's no doubt there's an age divide and I'm sitting right now on the campus of the University of Chicago I spoke to a bunch of students this morning and they students who are supportive of U of Biden and are fending off classmates who you know are talking about genocide Joe and and that that Meme is being sold on Tik Tock and probably not just by citizens wanting to express themselves but also Al by malign actors who want to Royal the Waters of American politics uh but I think that there are a lot of democrat and this is why ultimately it would mistake for Netanyahu to come and Mike sort of hinted at this there are a lot of Democrats who want to support Israel and continue to support Israel and it's getting harder and if he comes and turns it into a partisan fight uh I think it's going to be really really hard for them to stick with it so the question is as it always is with BB is he going to put the country first or is he going to put his own politics for it be interesting to see we have a little saying that we've learned in the Republican party of Don't force a politician to choose between what they know is right and their primary voters and that is a a good calculus for BB to have in his mind before he starts setting this a blaze you know I had a a friend from the think tank world world in Washington come to Israel and he said to me Biden might lose because of Israel and is going to be a disaster so I guess my question Mike to you first and then and then to you David um can he lose because of Israel he can lose but I don't think it's because of Israel that said if if this thing is bungled and the prime minister of Israel decides to join Maga and jump in the American elections as a polarizer it is going to be a political problem for Biden and it is not I hope BB doesn't think the answer is get to Israel to solve the problem problem because Biden's political people will say more distance push back hard on Israel to solve the problem so there's no blackmailing Biden back but it it is it could create more political pain if BB bungles this thing listen uh Biden won young people by if you people under 30 probably by 20 points or so uh last time uh and now it's pretty close to even uh and this has been you know there are there are perhaps other issues that uh that play into this economic issues and so on but this has become a flare point for younger voters and who don't they they haven't grown up with the history that older voters have uh or a sense of Israel as you know as the sort of uh fledgling democracy that it that it was and you know their experiences they've they've grown up with BB Netanyahu and are passionate about human rights this is going to be a marginal race and if young people stay away from the polls I don't think they're going to go to Trump they could go to a third party candidate but if they stay away and they're not in Biden's column uh or their turnout is quite low or relatively low among younger voters I'm not I'm not willing to say that it couldn't be a decisive uh matter it is this is a this is a real thing in American Poli politics right now and and just to push it even more specific I know both of you are you know involved in and watch closely the state of Michigan and that one state even if you don't get the big big picture nationally that you've just talked about about younger and more Progressive voters could Arab American voters alone in Dearborn 200,000 Arab American voters in the state of Michigan right and their Fury at this enabling of Netanyahu by Biden as would see it that alone surely could swing this whole contest man it's a major factor Michigan's the most interesting state of the five or six that'll decide that's the largest Arab American Community um uh in the country that's Wayne County which is also Detroit which the Democrats have to win by significant large double digits to offset outstate and Biden if the election were held tomorrow I think Biden would lose Michigan so yeah it it is a flasho and you know I think David and I would both AG ree that there are political people uh at the White House who appropriately is their job their map of the world is only six states so they know this is a pain point and they're pushing back to solve it you can see Biden getting a little distance now yeah but so when you combine when you combine the effect on arab-american voters in the Detroit area and uh he carried those areas overwhelmingly Biden in 2020 and you then go to Ann Arbor uh and some of the college towns this is a real Factor he won Michigan by a wider margin than some of the other Battleground States in 2020 but I would not uh sleep on Michigan at all here and this issue is one of the reasons why you've also got the Republicans in the Mirror Universe saying hey uh let's get BB to polarize this let's bring him to the house and we're going to pick up the Jewish vote and push Biden over to Hamas you know perception and attack uh which you know so they're they're making the reverse calculation so if I was an Israeli politician of any stripe I would want to do anything to avoid that happening this is a nightmare scenario I mean if if this is what happens and Democrats then blame Israel or this issue for for their loss this is this can be catastrophic for Israel I don't want to sound too dramatic but that is and that and pretty bad for American Jews as well by the way you know speaking as one it's heartbreaking to me you know on the other hand um I mean like I say I feel like I'm standing between two conversations uh not on this podcast but I'm standing between two conversations between three Jews and one honorary Jew there's like 15 conversations going on I'm here to represent the pope yes so uh but um you know as I said earlier the I don't want to Rob these young people of their passion including young Jews by the way I don't want to Rob them of their uh passion for human rights and their concerns about the Palestinians at the same time I want to tell them that when you undergo the kind of attack that Israel did on October 7th and you've lived uh over a long period of time with the existential realities that Israel lives with you have to be sensitive to that as well I mean it does lead me to the two-state issue where I've lived for now you know 30 years and this is Biden's been driving toward this as well BB's been obviously resistant uh to it h but I think there is positions are hardening in a way that is scary th this takes me back to the question I began with to you which is the point about Biden wants clearly he needs this to stop just needs this to stop being on the news you know he needs this to stop he's and his team are constantly putting pressure on nany and yet it isn't stopping he's not able to even get his way on for example increased Aid or whatever in terms of How It's seen doesn't that create another problem almost regardless of the position you take on the merits which is it seems to advertise his weak this is such a good I've heard you both well well I mean I was to think Mike you've sometimes said I've heard you say several times that strong and wrong beats weak and right and isn't this just almost as I say putting aside the up you know Rights and Wrongs of the Middle East is an issue this daily image of Biden being impotent to stop a loyal Ally uh from acting isn't that a problem of its own it is it's a big problem for Biden and it's a problem for Israel because Biden has more brutal tools to win this fight in the end if he needs to which would be a dis for Israel it would be disaster for us because it would be a foreign policy defeat but in the end Biden's the one who can make it clear that we are telling you to stop if you want to be totally alone you can try that and that would be a disaster in American Israeli relations that we should never be clumsy enough to get to but we're inching along that path my advice to any foreign leader is don't Corner a vulnerable American president in a reelect year and I don't know what guide book to American ICS BB's reading he's pretty shrewd guy I've talked to him about American politics years ago um but he is stumbling into a path that benefits Israel's enemies in my view yeah it does go back to that question though what what he thinks benefits him uh but uh you you Jonathan that that is such an important Point uh you know the subtext of the whole Republican campaign here is that the world's out of control and Biden's not in command that's basically their argument and you know age they use age as a surrogate for weakness it is it is unhelpful for him to appear as if BB is punking him and BB may see it as helpful to him personally even if it's not to Israel to appear to be defiant in the face of American pressure so it is a it's a very very fraught uh dynamic as Mike said you know um uh Netanyahu should not push too far yeah if he Corners them in the end Biden's a the bigger animal and again I look at this who's watching Hezbollah and if the Israelis appear to be more and more isolated particularly from the Americans it starts it will change their power calculus and you know then this could this thing could spiral in a really bad way yeah you said Israel in the words Israel and isolated a lot uh Mike and I'm wondering first of all I have ask you about someone like me who's been following you on Twitter for a very long time has noticed that you changed your profile picture to the Israeli flag and says I stand with Israel and I remember seeing it and thinking that's a very brave sadly thinking that's a very brave move to make because it does seem like however we managed to do this us Israelis right we've been brutally attacked on October 7th and now we're at a time where the economist puts up a cover story saying Israel alone just on you know you're two legendary strategists I know you both help candidates and not countries what is the one advice that you would give us us Israelis that we need to do I would say and I think your smart foreign policy people already know this first of all I I it didn't feel Brave to me it felt right it's pretty simple there was a there was a ceasefire and then Hamas sent murder squads in to slaughter Israelis uh that's a pretty clear narrative to me I I'm not a a dreamer about the hard politics of the ancillary benefit was he took his own picture down so that was good too that's true by followers quadrupled um so uh but but the point to what's in Israeli interest now is to study uh other countries foreign policy moments and sometimes declaring Victory a little earlier and going low grade to work the longer strategy and take 85% of the win when 100% of the win is going to cost you a lot is frustrating as that might be is the overwhelming strategic smart move yeah I would say two things I'm sorry I would say no so that would be how I see it um I agree with what Mike just said though I also don't live across the border from Gaza so uh I mean they there there was a mission here in the mission was to try and decommission Hamas as a as an imminent Peril here there is the question of are you creating more militants every day as well which I think one has to worry about but I also think that the Israelis need to look less like they are resistant to uh getting Aid into Gaza like they are being grudgingly uh dragged to it that that they are blind to the humanitarian crisis that is undeniable and that they are um you know which I understand there's so much anger about what happened uh on October 7th but the images that the world is seeing right now and this was always a danger the images that the world is seeing right now do isolate Israel and do convey a sense of uh callousness and disregard that I think that Israel needs to be aware of and Israel ought to be on the side of trying to figure out how to keep people from starving to death it's not enough to say Hamas is using them as human Shields I don't think that's a good enough answer there needs to be affirmative action uh to try and get relief to people and save these children from starving and ultimately begin the the the next phase here of reconstructing Gaza under under new leadership and with the assistance of Israel the US and the world yeah there's got to be somebody and I'm sure there's somebody is loudly asking in cabinet can we is it possible to win a military Victory while you're being overwhelmingly destroyed in the modern era in the information War mhm and it's not a matter of having better algorithms right so you know is that a victory because it's a different Battlefield now see I think both of what you've said would penetrate if you were talking about a leader who wasn't to your point earlier David thinking not about the national interest but about his own personal interest and so when you were saying about beware of cornering a president in a reelect true unless you think your own personal interest is served by that President perhaps losing and Donald Trump taking his place I mean he that may be the calculation we haven't talked about Trump much I wanted to get your reaction both of you to these remarks that Trump made this week any Jewish posted person that votes for Democrats hates their religion they hate everything about Israel and they should be ashamed of themselves Donald Trump said to to you Mike you mentioned before that that some Republicans might be thinking there's a Jewish vote they can win over if they can slap the Hamas label on Joe Biden when the Jewish Republicans at any point hear Donald Trump talk like that and think you know what whatever the position on Israel we just can't vote for a guy who talks like this about us well I think I think there's some of that but there's also American politics are now pick a team no matter what and if it is perceived that Biden is backing off supporting Israel pressuring the Israel president in a in a war situation driven by Massive and brutal terrorist attacks uh and weak Joe Biden is now squabbling with him because he's being too tough he's being too trumpian I think it's a very simple theme for the Republicans I think they'd be very happy to prosecute it and think they will win votes that way there's been a 20-year effort in the Republican party to increase the Jewish vote and it is worked it has increased so there is an appetite fueled by a a perception of success it's one of the reasons that Republicans think they've taken Florida from a swing state to a red State they give Trump credit so I you know things things are starting to fall into that polarized thing as we spoke about before and it's it is a challenge don't don't expect subtlety from the modern Republican party in an election let me uh let me just say that what what what Mike's saying might be true but I can't tell you how repugnant that was to me uh as a Jew and I'm I'm a secular Jew I'm not I'm not uh you know I'm not Services every week but uh I am proud of my faith and my religion I family members who've suffered for it I I I told you that and came here to practice their faith uh freely and it was outrageous I mean not not to say the least of which it's like who is Donald Trump to uh to to uh lecture anyone on issues of faith and religion and piety and you know I can't think of a more irreligious person on the planet I mean uh you know this is a guy who's violated 11 of the ten commandments so uh I don't want to hear from him I don't need any lectures from him about my commitment uh to Judaism and uh I think there are a lot of Jews in America who feel the same way you know we know that you you're both very busy and you have to go I cannot ask you David what did you feel in seeing this sort of tsunami that surprised all of us I think of of anti-Semitism in the United States sort of erupting after after October 7 well this is you know uh first of all there was a there was a lowgrade tsunami that's been rolling for some time now so let's put it in perspective this has been a growing Welling problem before what's really troubling to me is among young people and on these on campuses what we've seen and you know what people have done is they've merged Judaism and the Jewish faith with the policies of the Netanyahu government uh and some of these images out of Gaza the same people who are horrified you know about the sort of hate and characterizations of Muslims are now engaging in some of the same uh some of the same tactics and and succumbing to the same impulse uh and it's it's really really troubling but I I think back to Charlottesville and people marching there saying Jews will not replace us and the encouragement that Trump has given to some of the Extremes in our country including uh you know people who for whom anti-Semitism you know the you know an array of uh of groups and you know this has been welling up for a long time but the thing that bothers me is that young people who are the future and who should know better are now being drawn into this and it's something that we have to that we have to really address and and Mike just this will be a closing one to you I suppose there's nothing more that Trump can do to alienate you CU you crossed over a long while ago but just those remarks just remind you why you did why do you think he's doing this podcast from a car he has to he has to keep moving I stay near the Canadian border at all times never wor 40 away I um yeah I've hated Trump since 93 when I was running politics for my client the governor of New Jersey Christine Tod Whitman and he was in Atlantic City doing terrible things uh so I'm old guard on this question and I'm as incensed as David let me say I I am not Jewish I'm I'm a Roman Catholic but anybody who's seen me and David has put away a pastrami Rubin at Manny knows I uh I'm only one billionth of an inch away from Fon uh and anybody who sees us knows anybody who sees us knows he's not lying about that either but actually there's some question in the family because my great-grandfather uh we think was probably Jewish but anyway the the de question at hand of course Trump trump fail I've seen you at an Episcopal Country Club yes our gu I'm there all the time yeah yeah no you're regular says his name is trade anybody who meets him uh the the the the look Trump fails every moral question okay he's only religious in a satanic sense so I I totally agree it's incredibly repugnant that's why I'm gonna hold my nose as a card carrying Rock R Rock God I can't it makes me so angry I splutter rock rib conservative I'm gonna vote for Joe Biden uh but I I have anesthesized myself to that anger just to look at the Practical politics of it because that's the only way to beat the guy to focus on that and I will say a little hopeful note here if if the smart which means widening the call to BBE in the Israeli government it's time for some people in the cabinet to really stand up uh in the Israeli National interest but the smart folks in isra in Israel play this right the alliance will emerge stronger um and and Israel's position will increase and I think we can make the relationship stronger going forward and deal with these things but we got to get the petty vanities of a cornered Israel politician out of the center of the equation that is a problem only not Chuck Schumer but only Israel can solve I know you gave Mike the last word but I can't never let him have the last word so I just want to add that uh uh for the sake of Israel for the sake of Israeli troops uh for the sake of the Palestinians innocent Palestinians who've been uh who've been uh you know drawn into this uh and for the sake of the future relationship uh this sort of sacred bond between our countries you know one has to hope for a resolution sooner rather than later uh and the longer it draws on I think the more problematic it become and let me get the last word after that last thank you guys for having us on the podast know I just did it to irritate him all right Mission accompl gotcha okay good to be with you all now now we know we have why we have been fans of yours for such a long time you guys thank you so much for talking to Mike m Murphy thanks a lot thank you [Music] both so listeners to Unholy now you know why we're hooked on hacks on tap uh Murphy and axel Rod Legends of the political game Legends now of the podcasting game and just hearing them you realize how much the politics of what's going on in this war and in Israel is become intertwined with American politics in an election year listen I can listen to those too for hours really and I think that it's important to hear kind of the different perspectives on how to look not only on the Chuck Schumer speech but on everything that is happening in the um political arena in the United States Visa uh the situation here in Israel always such a pleasure to listen to them it has been my dream I've was been harboring this dream to have them on for a long time so I'm very glad it it panned out um shall we go into our Awards yeah we should I'm still reeling by the way from that fantastic story about the bottle of Pepsi in the schuma residence partly because it's an amazing echo of the fantastic and apparently you know grounded in truth story recalled in Joshua Cohen's novel The netan if you another recommendation from the Y book club and not only hacks onat podcast but you told me to read the netan by Joshua K and um it's about the appalling house guests when they arrive and how terribly they behave ruining the place and now we know that was actually the main protagonist there was Nano's father now we know netan the son is just as much of a uh bore BW when he visits so um fantastic to hear that as well as um murf and axe in conversation so award season it's always award season on Unholy what I think it's your turn it is and I will uh give you my nominee for this week a man we have not talked about in this podcast at all uh the prime minister of Israel but this is a specific story that we kind of like uh it started this week when he complained that Israel's PR suffers because he's surrounded by people who can't put two words together in English uh we reported this channel 12 reported this from meeting he had in the uh knesset this while at the very same time deciding to suspend English language uh spokesman Elon Levy that I think we can agree was particularly useful and good and a professional during this conflict the reason for his suspension was him posting an answer to David uh Cameron foreign secretary uh UK foreign secretary not a polite thing to do but I mean if we're in the competition of 50 mistakes made on Twitter by Israeli officials in the last 5 months I'm not sure this leads him to the top you know 20 places uh in the background obviously a report by our correspondent on channel 12 def leel saying that Salah netan has long wanted to suspend uh Elon leevy for uh the fact that he has been a um supporter of the uh protests against the judicial coup so it kind of looks to the naked eye like someone was looking for a reason to actually uh do it while again the prime minister is complaining that there is not enough people who speak good English to explain Israel's case to the world yes a worthy if serial winner of our hsva award uh for mench I don't know whether they have received this uh award before perhaps they have I think our nominee this week is Israel's Supreme Court and they all can share the award together because they unanimously ruled that the population authority of Israel people particularly who uh you know register births deaths marriages as it were must register both members of a lesbian couple as the mothers of their shared children they said that the failure by the authority to do that sent a message that somehow as they put it non-biological parenting is inferior to the other kind so you know a a small step towards progress from Israel's Supreme Court and doing it unanimously so they can collectively Gather in their Chambers and admire the coveted Unholy mention of the week award that is heading their way is happening in reality yeah it's a nice image isn't it but of course we talked about the courts so much in 2023 and it was the center of what we thought was going to be the big you know political and story out of Israel in that year and in the end uh I wish we were still talking about the courts um but we're not anymore um we should actually mention that um we talked about this extensively last week Jonathan Glazer speech and we had Danny Cohen on who's the president of one of the companies that financed uh this film and the executive producer of the film he uh said that he uh disagrees with what Glazer said after Danny talked there were letter coming out of Jewish creatives and professionals now denouncing Jonathan Glazer speech more than a thousand signatures on that letter so I thought we should uh mention it um and we are wrapping up our conversation I think we didn't even mention it's porm Jonathan because this really is not a year of festive Purim a lot of the um Purim parades in this country were cancelled due to the you know basically mood of the country uh but we should say uh as much as we can uh I have to report you just in parenthesis that uh a dramatic move in a dramatic move in the Levy family Elsa has been usurped for Rapunzel this week uh this year I know it's dramatic it's dramatic maybe we should we have a whole I did maybe we should have a spin-off pod discussing this that you hugely Buri the lead Unholy listeners will know that every single year your need has had to trapes around her neighborhood one way or another in full Frozen Elsa gear probably time for me to admit that I've never seen Frozen and I know that you've look at the face um listeners are missing out on the on the shock the agust is like Edward M scream you never seen Frozen all you have no daughters so this explains why I've never right you're you're not okay I and how many times have you seen it if I've seen it zero times I'm going to guess that the average between the two of us is a th000 2,000 maybe 2,000 I think I've seen it I really I've I've seen it many many many many times many times yeah um I think it's time well clearly your daughters have decided it's time to let it go and they are not wearing the Elsa costume this year you that's the headline we should have begun with that um remember remember if you are enjoying Unholy please do tell your friends this Purim is as good a time as any many of you are doing that and we are grateful and we will Ser our thank yous to G Glazer om primat om Barak go see Frozen Jonathan we'll compare notes next week [Music]