Book Talk: Avec l'auteur Olivier Guez

and it's going to be my only words in French we are going to stop directly in English because I have a lot of questions um so stuff may come wrong but you essentially wrote non-fiction you're a journalist you work for the normal version okay you used to be yeah but you know so yeah you work for the month and you're playing following one just to give some information to audience and uh your vehicle several essays including one on America which is American spleen and your last book on Four Is about Europe um The Disappearance of to that mango talks about a historical figure but it's a novel and I wanted to start asking you why so why novel and did you know from the start but it wouldn't be a pure essay yes um I think yeah and that's the beginning I I knew that I wanted to write uh fiction of non-fiction the non-fiction written like a fiction so it's um it's so weird it's very difficult to classify this book but it's a it's a novel in the sense that sometimes I had to invent a few things the I think the mother of this book was In Cold Blood by tremendous watching um what was interesting I read the book when I started preparing Mengele and basically when you read the book it was published in 65 I think you have no idea what capacity has invented or not but basically you have the trajectory of these two murderers and this is what I wanted to do with linger in South America I wanted to tell the treasure Korea from England uh plus of course everything will never be known about what's exactly happened I mean the small details and the places and the people he met and so on and so on so I took the freedom to um to feel some voids but I mean the main the main steps of his life in South America has been sufficiently documented and I sufficiently read it back to to respect and the chronology and the main the main factor of his life in South America because I felt they had a responsibility as uh I mean I put my unit in the title so if I wanted to to write a true fiction I would serve his appearance of Joseph Schmidt's presidents but as I speak about mangalia I have to respect the truth so basically uh the the as I said the main steps are true I mean I read many many new things and Events maybe it would speak our work on this and um fiction on Royal as a novelist gave me some freedoms of course that a historian was never there to take I can give you a few examples one of them one of the I should say um I mean one of the key point of the story is when mangere meets aishman in in Buenos Aires it's a turning point for Iceman and above all for coming in no one knows where they met for the first time how they met we know how they met through our friend in common but we don't know where they met so I decided to organize this meeting in a in a famous German restaurant in Buenos Aires which still exists the ABC if you attempted to have a true Germany lunch or dinner in Buenos Aires I highly recommend the agency in Cache Florida um and I mean it's incredible when you go there I went there that was in 2015 it's a German it's a German type and as as it was in the 20s and the 30s and above all it was um it was a place where former Nazis used to meet in Buenos Aires so I decided to organize the lunch when they met for the first time over there so it's a small thing but then it works uh with the flow of the fiction another example um mangere has spent nearly 20 years in Brazil as you know and he spent something like 15 years with his horrible terrific terrible ongoing family and he has an affair he had an affair with the lady of the family this is important to understand why he stayed so long the tensions with the husband of course are like wide ended so badly this Soulful triangle but no one knows exactly when it started who started how long it lasted and so on so I use also the fiction to depict the relationship that's the kind of thing I used but otherwise for instance when he meets his son which is a very um yeah I hope we have this is this is truly what what happened the dialogues and so on so this is why I've decided to introduce the normal form and also with my publisher we wanted to win a big prize is because you know the kids and we'll come back about like we come back on that of course but like it is it is something it's uh you know it's a heavy subject and it's you know it's negative so you know it's uh it's not an easy person let's say and it's not easy to spend three years and I mean the novel was at least five years ago I started researching eight years ago and we're still in Chicago at the end of 22. I'm still speaking um and the starting point uh started long long time ago it started in two seven but mangalese the last part of the trilogy in fact the starting point is when I moved to Berlin in 2005. with a scholarship of the city of Berlin to write a book about the history of the dreams since the war basically I've always been interested by the the possible period in Europe especially in Germany anymore I was born in Strasbourg um my mother comes from German lands between Australia and Germany and so on so I was very and I spent all my time with my grandparents so I had this I still have this very strong relationship to German culture German Cuisine also and so on for instance I've seen I had a small tour in Chicago this this morning when I arrived and I've seen this Virgo and I had to go there it's like the ABC of Chicago so this is part of my life it's part of my culture and even if technically I'm not a post-worker and it's gone in the mid 70s the environment where I grew up was very impacted by the war is about family is is Jewish and but I've never really worked on the other course on the world what interests me is the the post-war with very easy questions and difficult answers which are actors such a catastrophe between 14 and 45 in Europe how does a society evolve to individuals start a new life how can you rebuild the Continental societies people and so I started with uh with a victim perspective I mean why Jews decided to stay in Germany or decided to move there for come back to Germany but that was also a story of um on the relationship of the Germans to to their past of course but again this was a victim perspective and at that time I really wanted to to write the same Circle for another perspective but at the time I didn't know which one yeah there are a few ones so in between so that was the first part of the trilogy of this book English actually and then there was a movie yeah when the book was translated into German the German director and proposingly to write a script at the beginning he wanted to write a fiction about the Jewish Family in Germany in the 50s and the 60s and pretty quickly we decided to write the script and to make a movie about famous German prosecutor of Hezbollah and his power is very known in Germany maybe in Europe and America I don't know but in Germany because he's the one organized the biggest trial in West Germany in Western Germany in the 60s that the Frankfurt process of the Auschwitz process but what is what was not known to recently that is the guy who discovered aishma in in Argentine and in fact because he didn't trust the German Administrations he started working secretly with a massage he's the one who gave the chips to the Musa that's what the story of return in the morning and uh so we started to write this this history and the story and it's uh I had to document myself a lot about agency in 1950s and of course and I said okay this is the guy I want to write about to make a list the third part of this post and Europe and post uh Europe post-world General Hospital history and speaking about that documentation I have a another question so you your case from the moments like men getting managed one to option tonight was in 1949 until 1969 the moment he is in Brazil and so I wouldn't say your book is Spectrum only patreon because like for me it's like more than that I think you live a lot of space for many things around the facts and I hope we'll have time to talk about that but it's not it's not a long novel you say it like it's even like it looks even shorter like that you know in French what I what I mean is how did you select like the events because I guess you had a lot of documentation I guess many episodes were interesting in his life and so I just wanted to know like how did you decide to spend maybe just a few pages on on this episode and why did you spend more time more pages like maybe on an episode on the characters so how did you do that I know it's a you know vague question but I want to know how you I think that I I approach yeah but like it's very um basically I didn't want to write a classical uh historical novel most of them are full of details and descriptions and all of this and I didn't want this for for a story about me I wanted something extremely dry without too many adjectives without metaphors and because it's a Chase or even if the chase never really happened but in his mind is chased and so so it has to go very quickly as a Chase when someone is running or someone runs after the other so it has to be very very short and tense but most of the events I would say the whole events but I mean I've as I told you just five minutes ago I've been working with these things uh for more than 10 years also other things of course but uh knowing pretty well very about Germany and also Brazil and Argentina um a beginning I speak about Vermont of course it's more or less impossible to Define heronism people have tried it's a it's like a suit of honest and it's a good act of everything all the ideologies for 20 centuries a bit of christianism a bit of Communism socialism fascism and so on and so on and to understand broadism and no one has really understood even in Argentina or perinism but I tried so I went I don't know four or five six books then I always take notices and to I try to sum up all of this in five six pages so it will make it extremely because it's a novel so it's not a message and so that's why the the novel is uh is pretty sure yeah that's that was the the IG and most again most of historical novels the ideas the reader fields it's pretty good actually it's pretty long and you you're moving to pass I didn't want this I wanted something like um something more radical yeah something sharp and like I agreeing is pretty like I'm I'm still impressed I think it's pretty impressive because yeah you managed to like sum up so many things like and again we talked about that but about like what do you think it's about history about how the world is changing the world's Beyond and it's very dense to me um I wanted to speak about something else so um so we all know was Mengele who he was what it did and so he was known as the angel of death he used this nickname in your book you also call him the prince of European darkness and I would like you maybe to read a short take song because that's like um an external page that I think is very very different from the rest in your book so we talked about that I'm going to give you the text in English and it should be just right here from here what is important um the nickname of mangere was the angel of death and I never use it um unless I quote newspapers people that was a major thing there was a major you know on mingle uh became a kind of uh pop culture figure in the 60s but what I use it's all it's always is synonyms so at the beginning he arrives under the name of Gregor so I call him Durango it's not it's never mind it's when it goes back to the past or when it goes to the German West German Embassy and in the late 50s and he gets back his identity then I call him but then it changes again up identity when he moves to Brazil at the beginning of the 60s and he use uh Swiss name of Wilshire and I use this name again so just to to show how in fact the idea of the chase of The Disappearance change also is mine and his identity that was very important yeah and that shows again another thing which is very good yeah yeah what is very interesting that when he moved to Argentina his children he was gonna go and grego is the name of uh the guy who transformed himself into a cockroaches it's very strange because it was impossible but he picked the name of the Guard transforming cellular cockroach and this is exactly what happens to me within the 30 years of his examine in South America it's a weird thing I didn't think at least at the beginning and then I said okay yeah foreign the prince of urban Darkness the Arrogant Doctrine the secretary torture and burned children the son of a prosperous families and 400 000 human beings to the gas Chambers as a whistle for a long time he sounds he could get out of his evening he was the little run born of mud and fire and saw himself become the demigod he who floated laws and Commandments and inflicted and feeding me so much suffering and pain on his fellow man his brothers Europe Valley of Tears Europe necropolis of a civilization an elated by mengelee and the enchmen of the black order but as curling seniors the poison tip of a narrow release in 1914. mingling modern employee of the discovery the mass murderer without equal Escape punishments but now his Corner a prisoner of his own existence a modern cane wandering through Brazil thus Begins the doctors is sent into hell he will know what he will know at his own heart he will lose himself in The Dark Knight thank you so Christopher Prince of European darkness and pain like you explained that you you reading you chose every like term to to talk about mangere and like every nickname with a reason and so why so now with Kane so was it like did you have like a a better grip on the Hem to use this like religious context like why why can't you buy something I mean I had two motivations at the beginning of this book the first conservation was to first two to understand exactly what happens when I mean as we as we said the mangere became a pop culture figure in the 60s and lots of things and lots of products were written about hanging yeah novels very popular movies like uh Marathon Man or The Boys from Brazil uh lots of fictions about but also the classical they didn't write the lead party wears somewhere else especially in Paraguay so basically and it's interesting uh isn't there for the book in 1967 I think and um it describes mainly as a village in James Bond the guide is in as concerning he has a big muscle scars he goes to very expensive restaurants it's surrounded by a beautiful woman and so on and so on so it's a very this the pop cultural imagination of that time but I mean who could what could visit them do I mean no one knew what it was and that was a learning small office in Vienna and because he wrote all of this no one forgot he had an important but there were lots of fiction so basically I want you to understand what exactly happened and why it was never built where he was wealth him and so on and so on but then there was a second question which is related I just read it was a kind of metaphysical question the question was okay was never interested never called never tried you know this but was he punished somehow do you like punishing and then of course there was some biblical on the metaphor for this murderer is is possible metaphorical for what happened to of what you did and what happened and um I spoke about [Music] um couple team that was from for the writing the stone and but I had another thing in mind was the the movie about her Elsa aguiring yeah I don't know what it's called an English Aquarius um you know that's the the story of this Conquistador Klaus Kinski who gets mad in the jungle and for me mingle is like an aguiring it's like rafskins [Music] and and for me in the movie of Herzog there was a there was this kind of biblical question biblical punishment and this appears exactly in the middle of the norm the first part of the novel is called the passion and describes his life in Argentina he has a very sweet life this morning his friends his girlfriends as a new wife everything is fine it's so fine that he goes to the chairman of the same Western German Embassy and he asked again in Gregor becomes again and then that's the beginning of the fall and uh so in the middle of the novel I don't speak about the past the first we're following someone we don't know exactly who is at the beginning and then we understand what he is and and somehow it's disgusting because his life is uh is incredible it's incredibly sweet and then in the middle I recall and remember I remind my readers who he was and what engines but I don't describe what happened in Auschwitz I use the testimony of the doctor and Hungarian doctor who was one of his assistants and when I found this book I will never forget I was in a train this morning I think I was coming arriving in Havana or something like that and when I read the descriptions the one that I use in the book I really jumped out of my seat because it's unbearable for reason or what happened and this is in the middle of the note it's not too long but it's a it's a reminder we're talking about what happened who is this guy and so that's that's my perspective because I'm not talking only about manually foreign [Music] in Europe in the first part of the 20th century um it's the true mystery of what happened in Europe this self-destruction it's a suicide what happened in the Europeans committed suicide and manually was the sum of uh which bourgeois it was um his family was traditional it was uh it was uh they were not extremists they were um conservative conservative Germans and mangere classical German classical music German literature through phds and why I've studied all history in Florence so basically in the late 30s apparently there were they were very yeah traditional Bourgeois but the same guy a few years later five six years after since 400 000 people to the gas chamber of whistling and experimenting on a kid and so on uh so for me this trajectory tells a lot of what happened in Europe and this is why I'm following him also in the southern Park's life and that's why I wrote this passage yeah and um to go back to like this like middle and part of the novel it's interesting because just laptop is Excel that you just read um the next page we are with him like just looking at his aging buddy like in the in the in the bathroom like the thing I want to say is that's one aspect of like the monster like he's also depicted new depicts him as like just the best fitted human being if I can say so sometimes he's evil but it's also like recognizing the human you see what I mean and so we also we also see like throughout the book he's a very angry man he hates his brother like he's he's happy with his own brother dies he even later takes his wife and so we and and I'm not even talking about a good question of the Holy Cross because you you talk about that too like we see that there is no uh regress at all uh the way you speak about that I see yeah no lack of regret you clearly see that you clearly show that he was completely self-obsessed and that's it he was pretty much likened to his spiral of questions and just being afraid of being like caught until the very end and I wanted to thank you I wanted to see so where did you find the inspiration if I can say so to talk about like his bride bags and inner life because you had some documentation I guess you read and we see it like at the end of the book like you talk about like your bibliography like all the books you you've read and used but how did you manage to like yeah talk about is he no like like and depicting him as a human being right what was the process for you how did you manage to do that and I mean he did munchkins things but I don't think it's a monster it's too easy in fact or depicts someone as a monster if you say some someone is a monster then it's impossible to understand anything so um I I try to I don't think it is an importance and I think this is the one of the key thing to understand our Japanese regime functions so I am as I said he was a conservative and but it was also a very ambitious young man in the 30s and he had understood that Nazis is wasn't pure politics which is a very weird thing never happened before that never happened since basically biology was at the center of the whole system you had biology in politics and international relations in personal revelation and sexuality everything race biology there was a Doctrine so he could get into the center so basically at the end of the 30s he decides to move and go to the party and it's happening but then he understands not enough so one year after I'm 38 it goes to the essence so the elite uh course and um is the true Orlando Reincarnation of a banality of president and I think Irene speaks about this uh eishman but I think she got caught in the Trap of Iceman that the lawyers of aishman tried to describe him as a little too in a huge machine but Iceman was on top of this machine mangere is in between is a little thing in the machine is one of the doctors one of the unders thousands of doctors who worked in the concentration camps and he's a nobody in this hierarchy and [Music] um and he went to Auschwitz because he wanted to to experiment not on rabbits or rather nice like a normal laboratory but I'm just on human beings so they could go quickly and was very ambitious and he was working on the hill which was the most important for the lenses for the regime which was the twins that was part of the old plan of the of the of the German regime at the time the idea was after you win the war against the Soviet Union after you get rid of the Jews you get rid of these gypsies you get rid of most of the slums basically we have this huge space at the East with no one so we have to populate all these arrays so the regime asks all the Germans to make lots of deals especially BSS DSS multiples we have at least three or four kids I can remember with as many women as they wanted there to produce the neurons race but that was not enough so basically the one who would discover the secrets of getting twins would be at the center of the center of the regime and then that's what that's why Mengele went to Auschwitz and that's that's why you proceeded uh to all these experiments so that's pure opportunity and uh this I needed time to understand is actually the motivations and how it worked and basically this little person worked under a crazy system but the system functions very well it was crazy it was perverse but then within the system it was very rational and manually was very rational mentally is a part of a long chain but he was most of people think about him or see him as a crazy doctor practicing experiments and elaboratory secret laboratory Association this is completely false this is wrong mangere was a very official Doctrine sending eyes bodies everything you can imagine to the best Laboratories official officially the skeletons to museums and to centers of science so uh that's why I wanted to depict him as a mansion so as a person and then after Liverpool the system had collapsed so the system used to protect this evil protects and to encourage these people to practice all of this but without the system these people are nothing and that's how what I show especially in the second part when Germany changes when the Western Hemisphere changes that only 20 years after all these crazy things completely vanished and suddenly was naked and lost in the middle of the Jungle that's why I depict him as a as a man I never seen him as a monster and that's whatever he did and I think it's more interesting otherwise you don't understand yeah yeah and it's yeah it's very interesting because it's also like very nuanced I'm keeping an eye on the on the time so we won't have time to talk about everything but there's there are a lot of problems right possibilities but yeah of course like there are many many portraits of people that have a new understanding rules that's great so um I wanted to ask you I'm going to jump ahead so in 1956 people only talk about for example the Diary of and Frank like you you talk about also this aspect this cultural aspect around it's also the uh uh 1914 was released so again sorry it's a name question like why did it take so long like why did it take so long to just like wait up and stop talking about it and thought what happened I mean but it took longer for me to to the 70s and people started talking well there are many many reasons but adverse I mean when the war ended most of the survivors were young they wanted to recreate a new life and they didn't want to speak about the past and for instance I'm these days I'm reading the number of mercury singer called the Shadows over the the Hudson I don't know if someone read it amazing book but it's sorry yeah um basically it says it's a novel which plays uh in the late 40s in New York and there are lots of survivors from Poland and as soon as they start picking speaking of the camps some of the characters say no no we don't want to wear this and you have to shut up this is and in simple answers what happened at the time there is other reasons um now the last survivors are dying and disappearing but for a long time these survivors that we see now as crazy Saints only people were seen very suspiciously because this is really sorry um why um because everyone has asked themselves why did they survive and what did they do did they in the pain did they were the treaters did they sleep did they do why this guy is alive and not my mother or my brother and my father so basically there was they were very suspicious these people and it's when they became old the their image is completely changed but for the first decades they were very never suspects president was the Cold War there was a new completely new priorities a new war and it was very serious Plus all the societies so basically um it took something like 30 years before a country like West Germany started officially uh this politics of remembrance pensions uh the first celebration commemoration of the Christian notes and the Crystal Knight was only in 789 why and and this is the case also in France of Rishi or they've never really happened in Italy fascism took longer in Austria in the 90s in Japanese in the 70s why did it happen like that especially in Western Germany because of the cold war no one wanted the states to be discovered inside they stabilized by it would have been a thousand tribes so basically the university world the police world the politics the economy the finance the medical world everybody managed to get through that's why also is also so angry because he's lost in the jungle where all his colleagues have a nice life easy life in Western Germany it would have been easier for him probably you can't stay in Germany so this took a very very very very very long time so you're asking 56 but 56 just a very big the um the turning point in Germany is when I studied in the Rainbow City level 2. is the Holocaust Serene with a marine strip that was a huge shock because we're historians of course and you had people were researched and there were a few cool there were trials I mentioned the outfits trial on the early 60s but the main thing was this Holocaust server because it was incremented that was the that was the Incarnation of what happened in Germany and what the Germans are done and then it started the idea that we have a question Germany of Germany with the it is remarkable and policy of remembrance starting middle names so 56 is nothing yeah yeah um I have a last question for you so again we are going to jump in time so it's in the in your book like we are in 1967 at the moment I think when mangere seems to finally realize that he has lost in a way and he you say he understands nothing of the world now so what's happening to this world what's and what's happening to negative at this moment it's an interesting question it's uh I've always been fascinating when you look at um when you look at Woodstock for instance that was 69 yeah this is 24 years after all streets it's incredible it's another world it's another planet just one generation I mean it's in color and you have people with long hair and you have all this freedom and I mean it's it's amazing what happened and we still in the shadow the Woodstock and that was the highlight of what happened in this and of course Megan is at the time is not always 56 56 I was born in 11 which is this on a Brazilian GV and of course he doesn't understand the guy was stuck in the in the 40s in this very traditional this uh and it's incredible it's just incredible when you think about this in 67 in San Francisco all the EPs and so on and so on you know there's better than us in Europe so uh yeah he's lost and I thought it was interesting to to imagine a scene like that yeah the image is writing the EP and discount is not all 50 things especially all right he's from another planet yeah a new planet started at the time yeah and that's what you and you describe it like in your book like when I read it I was like yeah it's it's pretty weird like to just yeah imagine this thing so yeah um all right thank you so much do you have some questions for the guests but um yes can you describe how effective you to concentrate on this period and these people over an eight-year period well first I um not the beginning was was difficult because as I say I never wanted to dig too much into the old coast and the second world war and all this astrosities I've always been very careful because I know some friends who are historians and at a certain point they just distributed I never wanted this but I had to even if I write about the second part of his life I had to read lots of things about him and doctors and concentration cancer and so on so the beginning was very difficult and I told myself here you're crazy what are you doing this um but there's an important thing um in this book I'm writing.com of England the decline so basically I kind of enjoyed myself [Music] I mean I always he has lots of problems with his teeth and his stomach and they can't sleep and it's alone and all of this so it's very different from if I decided I would have never decided because I've written an essay or a novel about angular and Auschwitz this would have been impossible I would have never done this so basically this helped me uh a lot in fact because I'm telling the end of his life yes first of all I want to thank you I finished the French version last night so I'm anxious to read the English and see what I missed you've answered a lot of questions and that was as I reflected back on my experience of reading and I wondered why I didn't judge this person every once in a while you'll drop in that's something he didn't I remember oh yeah he's really a reprehensible person but you've answered it you you described him human the other thing you did which is great historic fiction is I kept thinking is he going to make it is he going to get by and I know what happens but I see what can I do with the story but I don't think I'm giving away spoilers because at the end I think you bring us down to the present because you say something like people will forget and it will happen again and I think that's what he was saying am I right is is there a message there for us it's part of it what I what I say at the ends um we talked about this a bit this afternoon it's um I mean maybe it is a man without qualities anything he's a very major person at a certain point he meets an ideology and a regime which exploit the worst size of him and he moves into the system he thinks he can there are there are opportunities in the system and when the system is supervised and allows and encourages the worst aspects of all of us this is extremely dangerous and this can listen happen in between scenes and this can always happen so more than to forget and that's about it but this is for me that was my main my main occupation you have to figure out that I wrote the book in 2016 which is for me maybe the worst year in the Israel crime Center since the war Charlie had happened at the beginning of 15 we had a better Club a few months after you need some six months after there was attention in France which was terrible it was really one of the Australians in the restaurant and I felt it deeply Within Myself that things can happen again and again in other forms and um this is what I remind this is what I found and the whole atmosphere was I mean Trump got elected that you're I don't make any comparison between us it's not true of course but I mean the atmosphere you know that there was something in the air and it started something like 10 years ago and still see the consequences today so this that was more my my lesson for today that we have to be very careful because I think uh as uh as human beings we can do the the best as to as there was it's very easy especially when a regime exploits the worst of you and encourages you especially the totally times yes so you live all that time with this character how did it feel um the answer mom is doing this question I as I said it was difficult at the beginning but then I I kind of thought hurting so it was okay and then I mean I because I'm used to speaking of him and uh basically two day for instance I didn't think about maybe there when I arrived here I took it from the cupboard I put it okay um and go back it's [Music] um I'm just saying I wouldn't say I got a few story but um somehow um I think it's important to speak about a character like it's not about the memory but what he tells about the human beings and um so I guess it's part of the things I have to do um but I guess being a journalist my dad helped you know distance whereas as a novelist you mean yeah it would be like still wait what I don't have uh okay this is my channel it pays only one five um assassin man the beginning was difficult and then thanks then it's okay it worked sure it worked out yeah because there's probably a split number of people can't hear you ask the journalists in strictly literary translation is that something that you specifically thought out because of the process behind work or whether it have the coincidence really I'm sorry I appreciate you about it I get some words but yeah it's about translation talking about established versus journalists was it important to you to have a literary consider it was also journalism it doesn't just do picture because of the process the research and the fact of the following officer well I sh to be honest with you the the novel is also published only five years after it was released in France because there were some problems with the translation some some historical facts were not understood badly translated so we had to do it again and uh well the the languages I speak always check this out then when the book was released in Albanian and Chinese I believe um I'm curious but I'm curious to know if you've been surprised about the differences in the response to the work in different parts of the World perhaps you know different audiences if anything had to check out to you foreign Journey I lived there I speak the language and that was very important for me and maybe I've done like 50 60 cities in general small cities and so on and then I understood and you have this before but I understood that it's a very long time which is speaking about uh time even the post-war period is which is now 56 years old so basically people were interested people were very offensive people were but it's long time ago and uh I knew it of course but that was um so the reactions the non-reaction or non-specific reactions in Germany was something which was quite a strong reaction but no reaction and but sometimes um I met some people when no for instance I gave her a lecture in Ginsburg where they all Mengele family was and there are still a few manganes I mean there are no shows which are mentioned in the world still live there and at the beginning I didn't want to go to Pittsburgh I was kind of afraid to work on principal so I said no one and then I had a lecture in Ulm which is something like 40 kilometers and some people from Ginsburg went to Berlin principle they say okay but I don't sleep in schools and some people knew of course I um that that was interesting that was interesting I mean five books and the south west of Germany close to Jennifer grants there was a guy who was at school with a son of Wenger it was interesting so that kind of things but the reactions were not so different from the ones in France or Italy what was interesting was the reactions in Japan presented a book in Japan Japan didn't do um didn't work at all on its past during the war if you have been to Tokyo there is a huge War Museum which is completely reactionary it's amazing I mean all the chemical currency and all our heroes are still in Japan and you have paintings and the campaigns in Korea in Australia against the US and so on but they were very interested by the nurses the Japanese uh it was it didn't last enough but I I felt a very strong opponency attraction there would be they wouldn't be fair but there was something strong but it was also interesting was Argentina with peronism because spironolism is still in power instead of the center of a politics in Argentina so small variations but I wouldn't say that it was very different from one place to the other like nuances and so 15 ounces of um Mandarin that he wasn't a monster I'm a very a little uncomfortable with that or very uncomfortable because I can understand that when you said who you were before but what he did was that of a monster so I had to go to many things because the military did you know in Argentina you know um you seem to be like a normal person but you commit and you do all these atrocities so then you know you you have become a monster that wants you to be very clear about this I said that he did monstrous things he acted as a monster but to depict someone as a monster for me doesn't mean anything in the sense that you don't understand why does this where it comes from but it did not stress things he acted as a monster without any doubt so if is it clearer for you um yeah if if I can I also like like I'm proud of it too because so preparing this interview and reading this book um it was I you you talk actually like there are like some pages that are really hard to read like you know about what it did make you know and in this interview I've chosen to like just talk about around like the thing because I after reading that you are not denying anything about who it was it's just that what you said is really true it's like it's too easy to say he is he warned him he he's being document of evil and that's it we have to accept that and again it's my world and then I'm going to you know stop but we have to accept that unfortunately like he was also a human being he did the worst but we have to be aware that it came from human beings you know like death being like a system killing people and destroying people came from human beings so but also to sum up like the interview I really like try to you know not insist on like the the show on like what it did because like there are many many things to around that needed to be discussed so just wanted to add that impact but you know I it's great to have you know your point of view and your actions too you know so what was also important for me it was to to make understand how evil the system was that he was not alone was not a monster in his Laboratories the lowest spot most little path of being huge in the system this is what I'm saying the way monstrous things then said when I wasn't comfortable with sufficient not that we're bringing up front because I really don't know what absolutely I didn't say that I just said that there was a there was a special context when I wrote the book in 2016. there was something in the air I mean some tensions and this is all I said I never convention and whatever it's not true but they're bringing up that like there is some kind of address and they really have no idea who Hitler was or Asheville so they bring that up for him all the time all right my dear friends Megan um I think we can keep the conversation going because it's obviously much more time left here but uh maybe we can do that over green tea coffee and sweets uh there's also a book sale so people who now have heard so much about the book in such an interesting way uh you can write a book and I think I'll give you some credit card and Celsius find your book but so I now want to say thank you so much