[Music] welcome to the herd and the coridor podcast a podcast about making sense of business within the US India Corridor and Beyond I'm your host Angela chitara today we are joined by Dr Cheryl Sterling an associate professor of English and African studies at Penn State University she served as director of African studies at PSU and black studies at the City College of New York her work is on Race uh coloniality performance and Aesthetics she's currently the vice president of the association for the study of worldwide African diaspora or Aswad she is a full bright scholar and recipient of numerous grants Dr Sterling is currently working on a book project creating aesthetic theories based on Yuba orisha paradigms welcome my dear friend and colleague Dr Cheryl Sterling well thank you so much Angela for having me on your podcast I'm truly honored by this well thank you thank you and I'm lucky to have you with us I'll be introducing rames vishwanath kapor co-chair of the Harris Victory fund National Committee and president of the US India Security Council but before we begin I thought we'd spend some time chatting with Dr Sterling about her research and scholarly work in the areas of race ethnicity and identity so Dr Sterling let's start off by first defining what race ethnicity and identity are what are the differences and how do we define race ethnicity and identity in the United States from a historical context well I would say that um race and ethnicity to begin with are um maybe opposite ends of the spectrum because one is about belonging and one is about not belonging um race um was really an idea that was created in the 1500s through in the enlightenment discourse and it was um about how human beings are divided into distinct groups it was created you know by more Northern Europeans exploring um their world kind of through pseudoscientific discourse and basically they created kind of these hierarchies in which they placed themselves at the Apex and they basically basically they said that um there were certain inherited physical characteristics that defined race and what was more pernicious more behavioral characteristics that defined race they created for themselves as I said a hierarchy where they were the human beings and everybody else fell into subcategories they were either subhuman or notum so this is how we that begins that whole racial Dynamics now in terms of um in terms of ethnicity and what becomes identity later on we'll we can talk about that ethnicity is really about our quest for belonging it's a quest for this common ground that we have and it begins B basically with human beings trying to come together so it becomes something in a belief in what we all share maybe some attribute that we all share maybe something that pulls us together but it comes you know ethnicity comes to comes through the belief that we share culture maybe we share language we share religion we share some sort of ethos that pulls us together maybe we share even we have a common ancestry so ethnicity now has started to become something that's attached to nation National nationality you know because Nation the nation state has kind of Taken uh the place of maybe a smaller smaller group now identity is more something that we individually choose and we can choose to belong to these categories these changing categories of race are we changing categories of ethnicity so how we choose um becomes how we identify in the world and we then kind of we choose necessarily how we position ourselves in the world based on different types of categorizations and how we we manifest these categorization categorizations and how we um we position ourselves based on these categorizations it's very interesting um thank you Dr Sterling so US vice president kamla Harris's race ethnicity and identity are being questioned uh some say she is flip-flopping and referring to uh and in identifying as an African-American and other times uh through her Indian ancestry VP Harris was born in 1964 the same year that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed a landmark civil rights and labor law in the United States Ates that Outlaws discrimination based on race color religion sex and national origin according to a 2015 Pew research survey people who identify as being multi-racial cannot be easily categorized as America becomes more racially diverse and those social taboos of interracial marriage are fading um an example multi-racial adults uh with a black background according to P research uh 6 9% said most people would view them as black or African-American with experiences and attitudes that are more more closely aligned with the black community the survey also revealed that race is fluid throughout one's life and it can be situational so what does it mean to be multi-racial in the United States well we ALS we have to understand race doesn't really exist okay just like ethnicity doesn't exist identity and identity is what's chosen we choose to take on these categories okay so um there is kamla Harris is both black and she is both South Asian there is no there's no choice in this matter for her she is she is act she's both and so for her to manifest these both both of these identities is completely natural and we have to also look we have to look at her background she belong she grew up with a single with a mother who is sing Who became single after you know she she was divorced from her father from what I understand about kamla's background they divorced when she was about seven years old and her mother came from an activist background she came to the United States in 1959 now as a South Asian woman she came here to this country before the Civil Rights Movement really well at the you know at the beginning of the civil rights movement and she was alone she came as a student and she came before there was uh this huge this this great immigration of other South Asians who were her companions she wasn't she became an activist within the Civil Rights Movement she um fell in love with someone who also came from another country they found certain commonalities they were both you know expats from British colonial from British colonialized countries they must have found some some commonality with their backgrounds because quite frankly during that period very very little immigration was allowed from countries that were not northern European there was a there was a common understanding that was that happened in Immigration circles that they would only allow certain countries from northern Europe not even southern Europe to come in Freely and they only allowed maybe a hundred people from different countries in the world from countries of color to come in and so for them to come in that you realize that they were of the elite okay they were educationally Elite and they were also Elite in their background so they came and came together and they must have they found some commonality they were both in these struggles together and so from coming from this background and then of course her mother being divorced what was who were her community and in California her community was was African Americans and so Kamala grew up with this mother with this cultural background but she also grew up in the midst of this of the struggle for further equality she spoke you know during during the last cycle of elections of being part of the group of children that were being busted to school so she definitely grew up in the midst of the changing demographic of africanamerican of AF the African-American um um experience in the United States and so she with her mother kind of inculcating this kind of sense of Justice this sense of of of needing to like change the existence of of people around her of trying to um be the very best person she's going to be and also her father inculcating the same what else is she going to be she's going to be both and she's going to be this kind of strong force that is going to move towards change okay thank you Dr Sterling I'd like to now bring in uh Mr rames vishan kapor co-chair of the Harris Victory fund National Committee and president of the US India Security Council he joins us from the Democratic National Convention in Chicago welcome Rish thank you thank you for uh interviewing me well thank you thank you for joining us sir uh raes uh we were just referencing uh uh how uh US vice president KLA Harris's race and identity uh are being questioned um um vice president Harris uh was born in 1964 the same year that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed um how you know how is how is Vice President Harris's race and identity uh in question well you know uh it's it's it's the opposition okay opposition Trump especially questions everything he even questioned Obama if Obama was born in United States so I you know that that's the same play that the movie like Obama says same movie uh that we have heard before one of the things that we also have to understand too that that year that kamla was born with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the gamechanging year in this country and the Civil Rights Act people think seem to think always think that the Civil Rights Act was only for black people that it's supposed to end discrimination and create affirmative action you know laws and rules the Civil Rights Act was an act that ended discrimination it ended discrimination in you know in supposed to end discrimination in the workplace end discrimination in public facilities but it also ended discrimination in Federal polic in federal agencies and what it did was to change the allowed for the demographic shift in this nation before I think we were talking before Angela about how you know um her kamla's mother you know and father were kind of anomalies in terms of immigration after the CI this you know the Civil Rights Act of 1965 1964 1965 came the Immigration Act and because of the Civil Rights Act immigration had to change because it came out of a federal federally funded agency and this act opened immigration to groups that were never allowed to enter the United States before in an unfettered manner so people from southern Europe from from the Caribbean from Asia from Africa from Latin America were allowed to come in to this to the United States in larger much larger numbers and we started to see the beginnings of the demographic shift in this country so the Civil Rights Act then changed everything and open was a game Cher for everybody and she was born at the cusp of that so she was born at the cusp of change right and she's leading forward change thank you so let me add another Cheryl you know I believe the black community has has a lot of blood and sweat for other uh folks to get the Civil Rights the women women got a lot of civil rights you know people don't talk about it but it's because of those civil right is that women got a lot of uh uh equal opportunities that they never had all right and of course the the the point that you made it about immigration but it's like labor you know I mean a lot of folks do not realize that it's you know 8 day week and Southern certain things that that labor had fought in our society uh helped in in in in uh uh getting getting the regulations for the rest of the population all right and uh and a lot of people I don't I haven't said people talk about what the black community was able to do for for the women in this country okay it's it's it's it's it's the black community who is bearing the burden in 64 and it's still bearing the burden to become the melting po which which which which was written years back but it is starting to become more of a Melting Pot if you look at it that's when it has come to reality before earlier was just a conversation thing America is a Melting Pot uh but now it has come to reality where there is interracial marriages and as I said you know kamla har D kamla Davy Harris I call call her because her mother name is Davy and I said you know you can be also you can be you can be a Christian uh at the same time you can be a in Hindu Faith you can be a black and you can be indianamerican uh and you know uh that that's that's where the society is going to now it has really become the melting part that that that we talked about for years and years I think that you're you're you're exactly right and what people don't even don't realize in academics and in academics in other countries the Civil Rights Movement is studied as a revolution a successful one of the few successful Revolutions in the world because it act it change the nature of this society and so you know people always think again they they usually focus on on it's black people but it is not it changed the nature of everything within the society and the rights that we all have throughout you know through that we enjoy in many different ways I'm I'm an immigrant too I'm a Jamaican immigrant and I always say I have to thank African-Americans for everything that I'm able to do and be in this Society because I wouldn't have been able to succeed in the way I wouldn't have even been able to come here if it wasn't for all that they've done and so we all have to be grateful for the sacrifices and they being the first in the line of fire for for everything that we we've been able to succeed with thank you thank you Dr Sterling raes um so former Secretary of State and first lady Hillary rodm Clinton said that the future is now out in Her speech at the uh Democratic National Convention how would you describe this moment in time in American history um you know as we um are considering um voting in first woman first South Asian first africanamerican raes well you know I again you know I I I I supported Bill Clinton when he ran for the presidency also all all the democratic presidents uh you know I was able to uh take him to India when when he was a sitting President also and and other uh uh organization we started together American India foundation with Bill Clinton we started that uh and uh so so uh you know and U you know I I I love Hillary Clinton because uh when uh uh mother Thea Teresa passed away she asked me to escort her to Mother Teresa's funeral and so flew down on Jack Kennedy's Air Force One you know our our problem is going to be uh uh you know defense area that's where a weakness is at the present time um and uh with what's going on with all the wars that are going around uh that's what my suggestion is going to be to her is how do you answer that question that's where the the I don't think IM I don't think immigration is going to be a problem okay um it will be more problem will be uh with with with the defense defense area uh because that's saw Obama when he ran he picked Biden who had a a great resume on the defense area and the other thing is on on the debate part of it you know she's a great prosecutor uh but you know she she will have to have uh uh also uh do be a counter puncher this and and and uh Trump is going to come after with with everything so she's got to learn to be counter puncher you know I asked myself that question when um Biden first endorsed her and yes yeah yeah yes I think everything has been put in place for her um she is walking on the shoulders of giants who came before her of course Hillary Clinton Shirley Chisum um we can't forget um Jesse Jackson with the Rainbow Coalition and of course you know we have Barack Obama and of course we have to give it up to uh Joe Biden for all that done in putting her forward um I think that it seems that we are fed up with the divisive Politics the negative politics and we're ready we're ready for for what this all means and we know we see this nation this nation is moving as I've already said the kind of like this kind of multi-ethnic this multiethnic Coalition and when this Multi multiethnic Group we've got all of these new people coming in building helping to build build this country and change this country and she is she is a she's a figurehead for change she's a figurehead for all the possibilities of everything that this nation says it wants to be so let's see you know we can we can all move forward the United States is the top destination in the world for people moving from one country to another over 70 million immigrants have arrived in the United States since 1965 these immigrants Trace their roots to virtually all countries around the world uh as Dr Sterling had pointed out the largest numbers hail from Mexico with 10.6 million and India with 2.8 million uh that's different from a century ago when in 1920 the largest immigr immigrant populations were from Germany and Italy uh so raes how do Indian how does the indian-american diaspora Define themselves um we were talking about indian-american South Asian um it's changing uh indianamerican South Asian so Indian how an Indian diaspora's presence is being felt in both parties so what do you what are your thoughts yes absolutely you know see we remember uh India is a democracy okay so it's easy for for us to participate in a democracy you know than than the Chinese would do it uh and uh uh my generation called us indian-americans uh and then uh the Next Generation our next Generation they call it South Asian okay uh where know Indian Americans is a big biggest chunk of of it of it but you know there there's more to it there other than the numbers that are improving of course there's also that we have become uh opinion makers also big opinion makers in terms of doctors numbers 12% of all the Physicians are indian-americans okay uh in terms of it okay the huge it uh that is there well I agree with you about the Synergy and the two most educated groups in this country are South Asians and black women and so you see that South Asians tend to have more Bas and African-American women tend to have more master's degrees and so there is you know there's something going on in terms of this idea of what education means and what the possibilities are in opening up our world and understanding what it means to position ourselves in not just not just you know this kind of Realm of of of of professionalism but also in the realm in the realm of politics and I think that we can all move together in kind of in kind of building this change that we want we want to build and and create the change that we want to see so I think the future is open the future is ours the future is something that we can actually create for ourselves what what are the issues affecting those who identify as um as multi-racial so according again into PE research the US Census uh Bureau found that in 2013 about 9 million Americans chose two or more racial categories when asked about their race the Census Bureau first started allowing people uh to choose more than one racial category to describe themselves in the 2000 census between 2000 and 2010 the number of white and black biracial Americans more than doubled while the population of adults with a white and Asian background increased by 87% so what are the issues affecting those who identify as multi-racial uh from your perspective raes uh uh in in the in Virginia is what did a good job okay Virginia the there is the Hindu American Coalition who who is working with with with the with the Muslims in Virginia okay uh and and and what happens is that the votes get divided and there's no nobody gets elected the in the South Asian community and the Muslims and the H commun so we are working with them and and saying that look okay you know we're going to show you we we have seven five people call them the Samosa kakas okay and two more will be elected one in Arizona and one in Virginia we will show you how to get elected get your next generator from run for office we will show you how to do so that Coalition of of Muslims and Hindus is starting over year okay more so and hopefully it will also uh you know uh get it in in in India because it has become polarized in India well you know just to begin with this the whole idea of the multi-racial uh uh population one of the things that that you have to understand is like the psychology of of people um most people want you to belong someplace they want to clearly identify you as being something or someone and when you have this multi-racial identity you're saying I'm more than one thing I'm I'm I'm I'm all of these different things so so people who are multi-racial tend to feel like a tend to tend to be feel like an in between this a sense of really kind of not belonging but I think that that that's that has kind of that's changed because we we this country or the you the younger population have embraced um have have embraced more heterogenity they've they've embraced you know unorthodoxy they they are open in so many ways that maybe my generation hasn't been open um maybe your generation hasn't been open so they are they so they're more welcoming of Multiplicity on on many different levels so the kind of crisis of not belonging doesn't quite quite fit anymore and so people are understand that they can they can make their own place they can they can they can chart their course through almost anything so it's a matter of you know is there a course to chart that's that is the that is really the question is there really a course to chart and I think that that that what we have been seeing in the past few years especially post with the pandemic is was was there really a course to chart and you know now we're opening up courses and so what will that course look like look look like we're we're we're really at at the the the cusp of like this Brave New World work doesn't look like the same as it used to um you know we are you know we're we're redefining all different types of ethos into in how we we are handling just everyday everyday um functioning you know and how we want to approach the world and approach approach life this is part of what I teach is you know looking at the world in a very different way um you know you know one of the things I would bring to my students is the map of the world but I'd show the map from out of SP space and the globe and the globe from out of space um guess what it's not the you know northern Europe and Northern America showing it's actually the opposite way you know from what we're used to seeing because the globe from out of space get what what pops up first it's the Indian subcontinent and the African continent that's what you see and so you're seeing the world from outer space in a different way and so this is what we have to understand that there is there's a new there's a from the youth itself there's a new articulation of the world and the world Dynamics and we have to just be prepared for how they're thinking how things are going to change and how things are going to move I can't really speak to the Hindu population I don't know I don't know how they're thinking I'm just I'm and I'm just hope I'm hopeful from what Ramesh has said and in terms of the Coalition building and across this this you know like the the multiple multiple years of of of kind of being in this country and moving forward and I think this is the story of all immigrants you know we've come here with hope we're building we're moving in the society and we're looking for how we can keep moving forward you know and we're when we're living in an interdependent world uh where Global cooperation you know will be desperately needed uh to solve for for problems you know problems on a global scale like climate change like how do we you know develop an ethical framework around artificial intelligence you know how do we um how you know how how do we become more competitive uh in terms of talent Recruitment and Retention uh you know and and that also um uh connects back to our local communities and and the work Dr Sterling that you do in the classroom you know and prepar that's exactly what we teach that is exactly what we teach because there's no I can't I there's I don't teach the local you know here I teach the global and my students reconnect to all the the problems that are around and the solutions that are around and how you speak to somebody on the other side of the globe and we find commonalities and we find our divergences but we find ways to speak across the board and so this is this is what this is our this is our iteration this is where we're going no matter what right thank you so much it's been an absolute uh pleasure and honor uh to be with both of you [Music]