hey guys welcome to the Ben Tracy podcast where I interview thought leaders parents and Educators about navigating life in the digital Age and what we can all do to keep kids safe online this podcast is sponsored by bark Technologies let's get into [Music] it so we're here with Chris Didier um our first interview along the route of the Tracy Trek as we've told you I will be interviewing grieving families along the way who've experienced social media harms um and so we're thankful and grateful to be here with Chris Didier and um we're going to hear a little bit of Chris's story and his family story and his son Zach's story and so Chris if you don't mind um kind of just to get going share a little bit with us about sure about Zach well first of all thank you for giving me the opportunity to meet and to to participate even to a small degree uh it is not a measure of how much appreciation I have and gratitude and respect I have for you and your team and your cause it's it's absolutely vitally important um I'm here uh to talk about my son my name is Chris Didier and I'm from the Sacramento area and I I'm the father of three amazing kids and I'm Zach's dad so here to talk about Zack yeah well let's do that let's talk about Zack sure well Zach is a victim of social media uh issues uh basically uh before we talk about how Zach died and what happened I'd like to share a little bit if that's okay uh about who Zach is Zach is a pretty amazing kid he was rather successful in all aspects of schooling life he was uh very very successful academically he was getting A's in all of his classes he was enrolled in all the AP classes he was allowed to take uh he halfway through high school he he absolutely did very well with the SAT I think he missed three or four questions and scored at 1550 um but he was also successful on the athletic field his favorite event was track and field and he really did well with the hurdles the 300 and 100 meter and he also did the high jump and then um also he was a big fan of soccer and he really brought a lot of speed to the soccer field and it was really cool to watch it filled me as his father it filled my heart with pride to see him catch up to the attacking uh opponent steal the ball and outpace that guy with a big grin on his face so uh he was really um joyous with with with his work he found a lot of Joy with with what he did on the athletic field he was very active in scouting loved community service he did every summer camp program they offered he loved to mentor to younger Scouts uh he was uh almost done with his Eagle project his last rank was the eagle scout which was what he aspired to Chief and also he learned to play Four musical instruments on his own his junior year of high school he went out of his comfort zone an audition for his school's musical production called High School Musical and he captured the lead role of that so a lot of different groups that he was involved in and he was enormously successful with them all um before I forget this is Zach uh this is his uh one of his senior portraits um that we have of him um and of all these attributes that Zach had the ones that I treasure the most Ben is his propensity to want to help his friends his buddies and I remember asking him about that um because it became kind of obvious uh when they would Challenge and support each other to do better on the SAT to do better on their end of your AP exam to do better on the track field and he said you know Dad I I find a lot of satisfaction helping and in order for me to help be the best help my friend to be a better version of them I feel like if I can show them that I can be a better version of me that motivates them one case that comes out in my mind was when we want to help victims of the paradise fire uh in California about three years ago when the whole town was wiped out we want uh and it was part of a a scout function we went up there to help distribute uh donations to those who lost everything and uh we spent a day doing that and when we were driving home Zach was really feeling like this is where I need to be I really want to help people and I don't see why sharing this story uh can't continue his legacy to help people no doubt about it no doubt about it so that's who Zach is well thank thanks for sharing all that and um you know for the parents that are listening you know it Zach was your perfect All-American well-rounded kid and I think you know in my work speaking in schools and it's like so many parents think that this story could never happen to their to their child like and we we get into the story but at some point in the interview you know I'd like to talk you know what you would say to those parents because I think with all of these different social media harms of the fentol pills the cyber bullying the the sextortion stuff there's this notion that this this would never happen in in my family so um if we could talk about what did happen Zach in December of 2020 and you know kind of your message to other parents as a as a followup to that I think that would be great I I that's a really good point you brought up um had I sat in a parent night and heard the story about a fake pill and how illicit fentanyl is being um uh becoming more common and and pervasive in our communities I would have felt bad for for any victims but I I feel like I would have fallen in that trap of thinking well not me not my family not my kid and as in Zach's story and so many others like it really show that um if you're thinking not my kid we really urge you to think again uh because Fen will not discriminate it's everybody's problem it's not a drug addict's problem only it's not that kid who's uh too loose in experimenting uh it can happen to a smart kid who's successful a poor kid a rich kid socioeconomic status none of that matters what what is important is to understand and uh three main elements that I have found in that is one how accessible fentanyl is two how uh there's deception behind how fentanyl is getting out there and three is how lethal fentanyl is and if we can talk about those that'd be great what happened to Zach is at the end of covid lockdown restrictions um Zach and his other siblings are older than Zach were all at the house were living together and actually things were going well and his grades stayed Superior and he's doing well and and everything was just we're just surviving uh like any family and the first public place people can gather was our mall called The Galleria Mall in Roseville it's the considered the second largest mall in all of Northern California it's significant it's definitely the biggest Mall in the greater Sacramento Metroplex and I remember Zach mentioning hey Dad guess what the Mall's opening up and he's never been a mall kind of kid but he was really excited about it and I questioned it and he said Dad we're seniors in high school and we've been locked down and again this is December of 2020 and so they're rounding the corner to graduate get their diplomas and all move away and this was their first real opportunity to hang out be together and experience life the way they imagined they would as seniors in high school and they were excited about it and it seemed innocent to me and and honest and it made sense the mall was when it first opened up was full of middle school and high school kids just socializing what none of us really anticipated however is that the mall appeared to have been also for of other young people young being in their 20s um who were there to Pedal poison for profit is how I like to say it they were there for the sole purpose to Market and and sell products for monetary gain and those products are pretty much everything and every anything you can think of uh and that's what happened Zach was with his friends they were hanging out at the mall they just opened up and they were just there and this dealer who is only 21 years old at the time uh advertised on Snapchat uh products his menu for the day uh it was a video ad from what I understand and he geotagged that on Snapchat to everyone on Snapchat at the mall they saw that in their notification setting or their notifications that just popped up and um and so said I'm at the food cart hit me up it's legit and um basically I don't check for ID and then he also took advantage of uh I think he first connected with Zach through their quick ad feature on Snapchat as well as using snap score along with his his track his map of what Snapchat offers you can see hey that looks like the kid that has a really high snap score isn't an undercover agent and as you approach that person on the on the map and you look at the person and you see him hanging with his other high school friends it it appears that it's not aover this is this person on the snap map right that gives location sharing he has this High snap score which a a a law enforcement would not have they had created this on their own right just kind of to provide some additional Clarity to to parents who may be listening to that so that's so so he sees that he sees this is the same person this you know that I see here in in person this is the location High snap score this is a legitimate person who's not very low likelihood that I would be caught for committing this crime of selling these drugs this mall okay so basically these are some examples of how dealers are exploiting features on social media like Snapchat uh to make sure that hey I can one make a connection and two I can in unofficially or indirectly validate that that is not an undercover agent presumably um and and then uh and then approach this person in public um and choose my place and timing maybe a quick getaway if it's near a door or whatnot and then say hey I I did you see my ad uh were you interested in any of these products and from what Zach's friends shared and what the investigator shared um the transaction only lasted a few minutes it was actually caught on surveillance camera at the mall which showed their meeting and they they were talking and it was not even two minutes later that they went their separate ways the conversation was about the hard drugs what the kids thought was hard drugs cocaine heroin uh MDMA and they were not at all interested in that um they weren't interested in the Vapes or edibles uh but then the conversation from what I understand took towards uh working out now as I mentioned Zach and his friends were athletic and they were pretty fit and he uh he asked hey you guys work out and um how about taking a Percocet pill one of the kids asked what's that he said it's what you a dentist would give um for when you have braces another kid said oh I think I got that one I had my braces put on and he said the idea is as potential alternative to creatine or or per uh workout performance product or protein drinks um instead with a peret you're not going to feel the pain or the strain of doing push-ups pull-ups r Sprints or anything like that and therefore you get more reps in if you get more reps in you get bigger muscles to a 15 16 17y old high school boy and may think huh so this can help me get more of a workout and I won't really feel the strain of it okay well let me try that let's see what that's like which is pretty presumable or or reasonable to presume that a high school boy could consider thinking that no know now whether Zach and his friends truly chose to buy a perco set because they want to get a better workout or because they were trying to manage pain or they felt it was a safe High I will never know but regardless of those reasons uh I firmly believe they thought they were purchasing the same kind of product an actual dentist would have given them uh that and it was a legitimate pharmaceutical grade perco set which is on the other side of the scale in terms of how potent and Powerful it is compared to fentel they thought it was legitimate was harmless medicine for a purpose but in reality what they were sold was a fake pill a pill that looks like something that's legitimate but is actually fake it's counterfeit think of counterfeit money there's nothing real about it uh it's absolutely fake there was no perus said in the pill they purchased it was a fake pill that had only fentanyl as the acting agent in it and uh they went home to take what they thought was a Percocet when in fact they consumed Fentanyl and that's what took Zach's life now was he the only one who received a a fentol a percocet or were were there others his friends as well so Zach and as far as I know one or two other boys purchased um they took theirs uh and nothing happened uh we believe uh that was just a dud and Zach had what was known as a hot pill back in 2020 it was estimated four out of 10 of these fake pills had the potential to be lethal today it's now seven out of 10 of these pills are considered having the potential to be lethal Western DEA Labs that I've pre presented and had the privilege to meet uh those professionals have analyzed millions of tablets over the years and they've seen rates were 85 almost 85% of their their pills have the potential to be lethal again these aren't uh uh percocet pills that someone put fentanyl in these are fake pills that only have fentanyl in it and and they're sold and marketed as authentic when they're actually just simply fake and uh and have that tremendous potential to end your life wow so Zach uh to finish the story uh Zach came home from the mall well actually after the mall he had dinner with his girlfriend and her family was December 26 uh as you may understand kids want to hang out with their friends after Christmas if they spent Christmas day with grandparents and family and whatnot and so the next day December 26 they want to hang out and that's what they did and Zach had plans to see his girlfriend and he did he got home before curfew I was worried about him as a driver because because of Co lockdown his behind wheel driving test was cancelled and he had to reschedule it almost five months later so he was only maybe 3 months old as a driver um so as any parent May understand when you have a high school teenager who's just a few months into to driving you you're worried about that and maybe not worried about your child's ability to drive Zach was an excellent driver he was a very responsible driver um like everything else he did he was he was wanting to do everything right it was the uh drunk driver he didn't see coming and didn't have the Driving Experience to recognize that I got to avoid this this danger so when he got home that night before curfew I felt relieved ah Zach got home uh we watched a Christmas movie uh with his other siblings and our dogs and it was great no no signals no no signs of he's a little high he's drunk Zack never came home like that ever and and so it was just like great another night let's have fun and watch another Christmas movie but it was on Sunday December 27th Zach hadn't come downstairs um um and I went to check on him and I walked in his room and I saw Zach appearing to be asleep at his desk in front of his computer uh so 10 feet away when I first opened his door and I thought that's odd why and he was in his pajamas he obviously fell asleep at his desk um during covid lockdowns he and his soccer team uh would play Minecraft um to socialize virtually to at least have some kind of connection and they kept that going and they often had late night Minecraft uh games and I just chocked it up as to that but when I approached Zach and tried to wake him up I I sensed a void uh I'd never really experienced before Ben it was there was something horribly wrong and I could tell pretty quickly he wasn't breathing um my 25y year involvement in the military as you can imagine you learn a lot about CPR self- a buddy care and you get training for that every year and so my training just kicked in and I lowered Zach and started CPR I alerted my other son Sam who I knew was not far away and asked him to call 911 something's wrong with Zach and things became blurry at that point I lost temporal awareness um it could have been five or seven minutes that First Responders got there um prior to that s came to the room with the operator uh the 911 operator and I never forget the anguish that was on Sam's face seeing his brother lifeless and his dad giving CPR you know I never imagine Ben actually giving CPR as much as I've been trained to do that I I never imagined giving CPR to a soldier in a battlefield yet to my son in his bedroom I just never imagined that so I I just it was just an out of mind out of body kind of experience um but I directed Sam to help with the dogs open the door tell his sister Ally um and Medtech showed up there was probably initially seven or eight men and a police officer and they went to work right away and I I want to say maybe 30 minutes later uh the decision was made it was too late and there's more pain in anguish in those moments that I had to keep private because they're really hurtful but um that experience destroyed me and I've seen a lot I've seen death I've I've been near it but this is a whole another level when it's a beautiful successful Soul a young man who's well within his normal range of what you see high school successful high school kid being and now all of a sudden lifeless um of course coroner then sheriffs and more firemen were there um they examined Zach and his room for about two and a half hours and they looked everywhere and they asked me did he have health issues or drug history I said no to both we knew every drug we had every drug talk we knew to have we never learned and knew at the time about fake pills cuz it wasn't common and uh they said you know we found no evidence of drug use we think um there's no paraphernalia we looked in every hiding spot we know and um and we think it's an undetected health issue we obviously have to do an autopsy but um over the weeks we started putting together a puzzle that there was this meeting at the mall that Zach and his friends had and when we were able to get in Zach's phone we we found the the investigator found the dealer who was using SnapChat the dealer happened to message Zach the day that the investigator got into Zach's phone and so they had a what they called a live fish and they conducted a sting operation to track this dealer down and arrest him and uh start a a case against him um and and then the toxicology confirmed that that he died for fenel I'm sorry brother thanks gr so as to the Snapchat how were they able to access Zach's phone because as you know so many of these victims of this stuff never do receive justice so can you talk a little bit about that process of how how the investigators were able to access his smartphone and Snapchat and kind of how that all came to be well we've learned a lot since this this uh crisis hit our family uh and and because again we never knew about something called a fake pill and I didn't know social media was a proverbial grocery store and you can buy anything and everything uh with at any age I didn't know that back then um and I have to acknowledge that at least in California and I'm sure many other stes less than 2% of of drug related deaths result in a conviction of a dealer of any kind of conviction um and so we are considering oursel a a significant minority to have any kind of conviction our lucky break was that we got into Zach's phone how that happened is Zach had a beautiful relationship with a a young girl was her first serious couple relationship they they would hang out at my house and then Zach would go to his girlfriend's house a mountain bike with with his girlfriend's dad a number of times they are an awesome family she's an awesome girl and and it was beautiful I can talk all day about their relationship I knew they talked every day they usually video called every night before bed and I knew that she would wonder why is that back not talking to me today um so I had no choice but to call her parents on Sunday the 27th the day Zach died and told him we don't know what happened but tragedy struck our family I found Zach not breathing we tried to revive him and he he couldn't get revived he tragically died today and um we don't know the cause of death appears that he may have had a health history and his heart stopped that's the only thing I can tell you um because there's no other Clues and um it destroyed his girlfriend she insisted to come to the house the next day on Monday to visit Zach's room because they watched movies there they had hung out in his room and he hung out in her room and she needed to be close to Zach so she stayed in his room curled up in his bed for four and a half hours and wanted to smell Zach to feel Zach and to not be away from Zach and it it's gut-wrenching to see a 16-year-old girl just in extreme debilitating torment and um I tried to check on her give her peace and let her have her her time with Zach and um but I checked on her and I I said look here's what happened here's the full story I I guess he died of a health issue but do you know what happened did he ever complain and she said no he's a very fit kid and I asked you know they they asked me did Zach get involved in any kind of drugs and she said no honestly he and we were all surrounded by Vapes and pup bars and and and people like to dabble on Edibles and we all have tried that but that's very recreational and Zach really wasn't he never had his own he you know he he just was he was clean cut he that's one of the things I was attracted to him about but um I you know I really don't know he didn't talk to me about anything like that and I said well we we're confused we don't know and I guess if there is anything like that um maybe his cell phone may have a clue and she said well we shared the same passcode and that was our one and only big break uh so I I tried it it worked I called the da our district attorney's office he said to take your phone put it in Airplane Mode uh then turn it off and then plug it in and don't touch it we're going to send an investigator to your house um now this is only days after he died and as you can understand our house was absolutely overtaken by family and friends neighbors strangers who uh who were parents of Zach's distant friends and close friends my house turned into a floor shop and I had a deli to feed the you know the San Francisco Giants I mean it was just a constant like uh like Time Square on New Year's Eve it was just so many people there and so many gifts and blankets and the community came out um and and um here's a young man walking up to my front door that um I didn't expect uh he was wearing a pinstripe Bud Riser truck driver shirt with uh uh faded jeans and convers shoes and a beard basically out out to here and and a a mullet in a baseball cap and and I thought who is this Joker um you know I I didn't know what to expect I don't know what caused my son's death if there was a drug story who's this guy he look Shady so I stepped out of the house and I walked up to him and I said can I help you and he said I'm here to see Chris Didier and I saw his name tag I said Hank and I said well Hank uh what can I do for you I'm Chris and he looked and said oh so sorry I'm not Hank my name is Patrick and he's the undercover agent he's the lead investigator and he said I'm I'm undercover I just got off shift I was told to come here right away and get Zach's phone so once he showed me his credentials I gave the phone and he turned it on and it took him 90 seconds to find the dealer and when he was finding the dealer that's when the dealer had messed Zach and he said I have a live fish I can I have this phone I said go get them and and that's what started that whole process I'm pretty convinced that I should I say it I'm convinced that had we not been able to get in Zach's phone I'm I don't think we would be where we're at with a conviction maybe some other way could have worked out for us but I'm pretty confident we would but not be where we're at and that dealer would still be selling on the streets well well you know one of the things Chris that I say in my speeches that I do to kids and parents is to the parents is you should know your kid's passcode to get into that phone because God forbid something awful awful happens or the kid is separated from that device the answers to what may have potentially happened are behind that password protected code do do you agree with that is is that something you think all parents should should have even if they never you know I tell them like you don't you know if your if your kid is 17 years old may you know maybe you don't want to be super intrusive but just having that access if God forbid something awful does happen I believe is is a good thing do you do you agree with I 100% agree and a message to parents is you know the drug landscape is very different it's not the same as it was before never in in our history were we now really need to have a talk at the kitchen table with our kids so I urge parents to learn about the dangers that are on social media whether it be illicit drugs cyber bullying sex tortion these stories are horrific they're tra tragic and so learn as much as you can there are so many great resources there are other um parent monitoring apps like bark or Net Nanny and there's a bark phone which is impressive I 100% support So when parents are considering giving a cell phone keep in mind you're giving them access full access to the world and the world gives full access to your kid so if you have a child a teenager who has a cell phone if you are not having these kinds of conversations with your kids I guarantee someone else is and you need to preserve your right as a parent to have these conversations I like to take the approach I think might work well not every parent child relationship is the same they're all unique like everyone's fingerprint uh but is to say guys I've learned about these dangers on social media and it's freaking me out uh and I recognize the the landscape is not the way it was when I was your age the dangers are very different and I need you to help me as your mom as your dad are you worried are you seeing these dangers do you hear about cyber bullying sex tortion don't necessarily have to ask have you been cyber ability or sex distored have you heard of that happening in your school and I might help a kid who actually has been sextorted uh or Cyber Bullied or whatever uh kind of a roundabout way to say yeah I have seen it in my school but I'm not ready to talk about it because I want to protect that my friend okay I get you what do you think we should do about it what is what is your solution and I think if you have an honest like uh conversation about you know this danger and and a parent genuine concern about it I think a child may have an aboveboard conversation with you and and feel empowered to help yeah I I think that's so important what you said is acknowledging that they are growing up in a new in different and complex world and that the parents don't have all the answers you know when I go in and I speak to middle schoolers and high schoolers I'm 30 like I'm still younger than most of their parents right and I but I say look come up and tell me if there's anything you think that I should know that would help me do my job better right because I can take that information that you share with me and I can go share it with hundreds of thousands of other kids and parents and they do been you know it's it's partly the age and my own personal story but it's also to your point just opening that door and acknowledging as the adults look we don't have all the answers either we may not know about Snapchat and the snap score and you know location sharing but we know that we love you and we care about you and you can get you the help that you need if you find yourself in in a dangerous situation so I think I think that's really important and another thing um that you said there um that I think is is really important is having these uncomfortable conversations and I think it's important to have those at maybe an uncomfortably young age because to your point somebody is going to talk to your kid and it's either going to be the parent who loves them and cares about them or it's going to be that online predator or that drug dealer and what would you say to a parent who's maybe watching this thinking well my kid doesn't have an iPhone my kid's not on Snapchat because my view is okay if if maybe that's true your kid is 15 years old and doesn't have an iPhone or doesn't have Snapchat well guess what that kid sitting right next to your kid does and they're going to be in that Snapchat like do do you agree with like kind what's your view on that I 100% agree and I have pictures to prove it because every student assembly I've done uh I average around a thousand students when the person first starts talking I like to stand to the side or behind and take a picture of the audience and it's a full Auditorium and every time every row there's a phone out and I've seen it and I know you have too um you I've seen it where they say hey check this out did you see this I'm like holy cow what's that then there's School supplied chome books or other electronic devices there's the internet there's a laptop trying to prevent your child from having access to the great worldwide web and all that it offers is like trying to blot out the sun with with your finger and your arm extended you can't do it it's it's going to their your child is going to at some point be exposed to amazing things on the internet but also the hazards and dangers and unfortunately the internet is a very dangerous place and and social media sadly is as what many people say the last mile of where a drug deal happen or other harms happen uh for those parents who don't know um social media is part of the only industry that is unregulated if you and I put together an app and uploaded it to Google or Apple and no one else downloaded it uh except one or two people pretty much cocacola and uh uh Nike aren't going to pay us to put ads but if a billion people download it and the first month and they're all using it every day for five hours yes you and I are going to get you know a lot of money for ads that they're wanting to have us put on our platform and there's no regulation there's no rules if we open a coffee shop or a dry cleaner or a restaurant we have to have a license to do that but not if we make a social media app it's unregulated no license required the other part of that which is mindblowing is this is the only industry where there is a federal statute that prevents anyone from even trying to sue it CDA 230 Communications decency act 230 signed codified in the law 1996 way before uh Facebook was invented I know you understand all this so it's the only industry that's unregulated no license required and on top of it it's the only industry that has a federal law that prevents anyone from trying to sue it giving a a a a a liability Shield that is basically the purest definition of the Wild West in a modern day in my mind so the dangers are there and yeah thank you parents for for thinking well my kid doesn't have access to Snapchat or certain apps or they don't even have a cell phone that's great but at some point they're going to when they turn 18 or when they turn 19 or 20 at what point do they learn how to manage that danger so really again I come back to we need to have a talk at the kitchen table how do we manage it how we need to have good communication I think we should constantly encourage our kids and work with them to manage problems how do we learn to manage you know problems and make good choices how do we deal with pure pressure how do we you know use me as your an escape Clause if you need me to give you a uh what do you call that a a a saving text like uh if you want me to text you like get your butt home now I forget what they call it when you have a first date with someone a rescue test you know um whatever it takes you know help your kid learn how to manage uh you know the the modern the challenges of the modern world yeah so beyond obviously you know the education of students and parents and like let's look at it from a higher level too because reality is these companies are huge massive profit generating companies that are allowing this stuff to exist on their platform yeah and so what would you say to to Snapchat and also if you would was Snapchat helpful at all in the investigation of Zach's death um what would you say to to Snapchat and then beyond that what can be done um legislatively to to help parent right because your point right it is on the parents and having these kitchen table conversations but it's almost like a a David versus a Goliath right it's like as it stands currently it's just up to to parents and a few people like me and some Advocates that are running around out here but like these are massive companies that spend millions and millions of dollars on lobbying and we're just like two guys having a conversation in an RV in the middle of the desert as I run across the country and like you know so like what does that look like uh great question thenen I I really I really uh I like where you're going with this so if I had the chance uh to answer the question regarding Snapchat they helped and communicated with our investigator what they were able to provide what really was very little there was no um messaging history that they shared uh because they claimed uh their platform is ephemeral and messages disappear once they're reviewed or after a certain time um and uh the only thing they can verify were certain PS there was one odd piece of information that our our uh investigator got and asked them hey that that looks like like a message uh I thought you said the messages wouldn't be retrievable and they said oh that was an error you weren't supposed to get that which made my investigator suspect feel very suspect about well wait a minute if if that was something that was preserved what else is preserved so we really felt there was very little honest support they really weren't very transparent and when they communicated with our investigator they were very script in their response there was an attorney in the room and anytime a Snapchat official responded to them they looked at their attorney to verify a response and then gave the response to our investigator so not very uh relevant in terms of concrete evidence um if I were to talk and I actually have talked with Snapchat we did share our story with them as well as Google and YouTube and uh meta Facebook and Instagram and basically said there is a problem on your platform they are being exploited we learned Snapchat first became aware of this in 2017 when Zach's mom Laura and I had the opportunity to talk to them it was in April of 2021 along with several other parents and now it's 2024 and I'm at the point I don't trust social media uh I really don't care how much money they've invested in how many people they've hired or how many new algorithms they're investing in to uh police their platforms or how much they're contributing and and and and enhancing their Community standards the only metric that counts are deaths or harms on children that is the only thing that matters and every time I hear a new community standard or a new algorithm or a new whatever it to me seems like they're they're like a crew running up to you as a passenger with little buckets while you're on a cruise ship that's sinking and asking you to help bail out the water when the real question is who's the Joker driving the ship into the icebergs can we totally take a different direction this isn't working these Solutions are really non-effective maybe scratch is a Surface I'm grateful for the ads they've been able to share that were provided by different parent groups PSAs I think that's fantastic but kids are still dying at unprecedented rates at a rate that is unsustainable and unacceptable so now I feel the only real thing to do is Pivot towards legislation and make social media operate differently yeah and you know my my view is that any parental controls or things that you know all these companies have said they're doing is more public relations than it is a practical solution to keep kids safe because you know they snap chat specifically spends millions of dollars I mean they ran a Super Bowl ad saying less social media more more Snapchat essentially we're not we're not as social media for these various you know I live in Nashville and right down the street from me is a is a billboard that I you know training for this that for this run across the country I would run by it every single day and it's like that's just you know it's such [ __ ] it really is and so it's like um you know it's it's just so frustrating that on one hand they they say these things public but they still allow this stuff to exist on their platform they don't allow companies like bark you mentioned which is a parental monitoring software they won't allow bark to have access to Snapchat because they right you would assume they don't want parents to know what is actually happening on their on their platform right so those two things are very in congruent to me of what they say publicly and and what is what kids are still being exposed to well when you're unregulated um this is going to be the norm they're just going to continue uh to Market their product uh that enhances and encourages more engagement between users the more users the more engagement and the more engagement the more uh profitability and that to me is absolute irrefutable evidence that they're putting profit over people the government needs to come in and put people over profit the Ford Model T is is a good example that came out in 1913 and the first year uh they made almost 10,000 models before that most people were walking riding a bike or using horses or horse drawn carriages to get around and then slowly people started using the same called day you know Horseless Carriage and it was like here's the keys and just good luck you know that was it well it didn't take long but 5 years after the Ford Model T came out the United States experienced the worst tragedy or uh fatality rate in its history were there were 33.4 deaths per 10,000 Vehicles every year in n in in uh you know five years after the Ford Model T came out that is a horrific death rate so the US government came in and said we can't have that they implemented things called traffic laws street signs roads stop lights um stop signs um and then over the years they implemented things called anti-lock brakes seat belts and airbags you need a license you need to be trained how to drive this car you need to be a certain age to drive this car um rules of the road and now for several decades we're sustaining less than 1.25 deaths per 10,000 Vehicles so 332 down to less than one and a half deaths per 10,000 Vehicles clearly govern came in and implemented safeguards in the auto car industry so that we weren't dying 33 and a half people or worse uh every 10,000 cars so to me it is we're beyond the time where we need to have appropriate uh meaningful safeguards on the highways of social media are the super highways of social media and and we're not there yet so legislation needs to to do its job yeah and and what does that look like one and two why the delay you talk about the the Model T five years and and we're talking about the the kids online safety act that you know 1996 before you know before smartphones and and any of these apps that we're talking about existed so what can be done in in in in your view why why is why is nothing being done why the delay great question um so just a real quick background um the communications decency Act passed Statute 230c in 1996 Because the Internet Was new uh in the early 90s the worldwide web kind of took off people started getting email accounts and um there were accessing bulletin boards were kind of the thing of the past now we have this thing called the worldwide web and then you can explore and and and do things and of course other things were part of that like prostitution child sex uh slave uh you know those types of things were harms and so there needed to be some kind of guideline and I think it was intend and tended to be an honest and Noble effort to protect those platforms those internet provider companies by saying hey if there is a harm between two participants that's where the culpability needs to be not with with the uh the platform providing the communication so it made sense in the early 90s as a evolved this law that was passed in 1996 statute 230c well then in 2000 I think it was 2003 uh Facebook started and then 2011 Snapchat started the the the internet is so different now and it's the features like what Snapchat is you like we talked about earlier with Snapchat the quick ad feature the uh geotagging feature the uh snap feature there's so many other features and a lot of other these platforms have these features that bring harmful content to a user because it promotes uh engagement which brings more profit that's different in my mind so we need to update statute 230c of the communications decency act I think that is a core movement there are other several absolutely um uh Noble and Worthy measures to enhance social media you mentioned one already kids online safety act kosa uh CA 2.0 sami's law they're very a little bit more specific and and how they help bring an enhance social media safety those measures also I think are appropriate and need to be passed and supported there's a lot to unpack with this but basically for those parents and caregivers and teachers and counselors and coaches listening uh talk to your your representative if you don't know who your representative is go to house.gov and put in your zip code and they and you will get commun contact information to your local rep same with US Senate and say hey please uh pass measures that bring enhanced safety for our youth our community with social media yeah no doubt about it now just comes down to what do these elected officials listen more to these millions of dollars of lobbyists or these gving families right and it's it's so frustrating as someone who worked you know as a young guy in politics and government and you know just seeing it now from the outsid it's like you know just it's so frustrating that you know they know these problems exist and they hear from people like you and I and all these other grieving families you know I don't put myself in that category obviously but these geving families and it's like how could you not do something knowing that these problems exist and for every Chris didy are out there there's thousands and thousands of other families that are experiencing have experienced these same things and aren't sharing them for for various other reasons so um you know I just want to commend you on you know your courage for for sharing it because there's no doubt that it's that it's saving lives and Beyond the the social media component of this would you talk a little bit about you fentol specifically sure how is this drug manufactured how is it getting in into our country and into these hand before it gets into this drug dealer who's at the mall and on on Snapchat like what does that all look like and you know any data or research that um you can share it in relation to that as well sure thank you for that uh so let's talk a little on this fentanyl piece uh for those who don't know uh fentanyl is a synthetic opioid it's not plant-based unlike heroin or morphine um and so um unlike heroin or other plant BAS you don't need a farm and you don't need a farmer you just need ingredients and a lab and a blender and you and I you can make it it's it's very simple it's much more cost effective to produce because you don't have to grow it a uh an opium field uh takes uh so many months to cultivate and then grow and then Harvest maybe you can Harvest a field three times a year so you're limited on how big the field is and how many of the fields and only so many times a year fenel can be made 24/7 365 and that's what's happening uh fenel is a schedule 2 opioid as I mentioned it's synthetic it is the most powerful of all schedule two opioids in fact it is the only schedule 2 opioid measured in micrograms all others are measured in milligrams as little as two milligrams of fentanyl could be lethal to an average adult where it's coming from uh mostly from Mexico uh but it originates in China uh basically there are chemical labs in China that are selling the ingredients known as precursors and now they takeen at another level where they have precursors to precursors uh and they're shipping it to uh Mexico and they're in business with cartels the two biggest ones is the caloa state cartel and the halisco Next Generation cartel and they showed these cartels how to take these ingredients and put it together like a chemistry lab and make fentanyl powder when they get the fentanyl powder then they can use that as an adulterant in cocaine or heroin or when they mix a batch of methampetamine um or uh they also showed them that if you buy a industry grade uh prescription pill press machine which you can buy on Amazon as little as $800 uh you can crank out pills and you can put a d to make it a certain color you can modify the stamp to make it stamp exactly uh what you want so it can have the same shape size and color of an authentic prescription pill so it looks just like a peret or a Xanax or what an Aderall yeah and now they're making prescription pills and then they're smuggling uh the powder or products that contain the powder or fake pills through our borders and it's not just only from Mexico into uh California or Arizona or border states they're flying it up to Canada and then bringing it down that way they're mailing it through USPS ports of Entry they're using drones to fly it in and drop the bigger drones to drop it in so it's coming in so many different ways in so many terms of so many forms now before I forget one thing I really want to make sure there is an important distinction fenel is a drug that was invented by a Belgian doctor in the late 50s and the FDA approved it in the late 60s for the US fenel is a very effective opioid medicine that help has helped me many Americans for medicinal purposes I call that legitimate Fentanyl and there are many Americans who who have significantly benefited from the from the uses of fenel but it's always almost always in a hospital setting uh under uh close supervision and it's usually intravenously uh administered and if you talk to any anesthesiologist who use fentanyl ask them if they have a breathing assistance type of apparatus nearby and they will tell you yes because it's not at all uncommon that their patient stops breathing because that's how fenel works so they're constantly monitored and they're able to assist in breathing if needed and it helps manage the most extreme pain what we're talking about is illicit fenel that's illegally made across the country or within our own country and Market it as something safe and harmless and and that is a different category could you share a little bit um about what what if someone were to find themselves in a situation where maybe their friend has has taken a a a fentanyl peel pill and they realize in that moment that that's what it this is and that they're overdosing are like what are practical things that that they can do in that moment because I think a lot of people don't they they know these issue but it's like what if you actually find yourself in that situation what what are your steps that you should take that's another excellent question so what's it look like um what do I do if I come across someone that I'm wondering well when you and I were younger if we were in college and we were at a party and someone had too much to drink and they uh were clearly inated uh or high or whatnot and and they needed to sleep it off we just let them sleep it off gone or those days because now with opioids that are like fentanyl um sleeping it off is actually the the worst thing because the way fentanyl works is it attaches to the opioid receptors and it overwrites how your brain regulates how you breathe while you and I are sitting here right now normally uh we breathe about 10 times a minute where we inhale and exhale just like you're blinking your eyes you don't think about it you just do it but when a person consumes fentanyl it goes from about 10 times a minute down to eight and then six and then four and then two and then zero it overwrites your brain's regulation how you breathe to make it stop breathing and then organs start shutting down and lastly your heart stops and that's how you die from first ingestion to when you basically pass out could be as little as two or three minutes and then about another uh two to three minutes where there's burn permanent brain damage and then uh another 3 or 4 minutes to where your heart stops so from first ingestion to when the heart stops it's about 9 to to 12 minutes nine or 10 minutes so that's pretty fast so if someone consumes fentanyl however they consume it whether they are aware or unaware they're going to be appear to be very sleepy very groggy so much so they just they can't hardly talk can't even stand or watch walk and they just say I'm just going to bed I'm so super exhausted and and they don't respond to you they get blue fingertips bluish lips and their breathing is a major clue they're not inhaling exhaling the way that appears to be normal if you're not sure do everything you can to vigorously wake them up I like to do the knuckle thing on the sternum really hard because no matter how drunk anyone is if you do that they're going to be annoyed and like slap you or say stop that but if they are under the effects of the power of fenel they're just going to be completely non-responsive that's what it looks like the thing to do first time the first step is to call 911 that is absolutely Paramount if there is no lockone around in the form of Narcan or kado or any other form uh the most common form is a nasal spray uh parents uh teachers who are listening ask is there an Al lockone in our school uh it's becoming pretty common and popular if there's a need for a fire extinguisher or a defibrillator then there's no reason why we can't have n oone there um so if you have access to that call 911 first and then give n oxone uh usually it comes in a box with two nasal sprays so you do one nasal spray wait one or two minutes if they don't wake up give the other nasal spray what nxone does is it it actually as one EMT shared with me it throat punches Fentanyl and it says get away and it forces it away from your opioid receptors and your brain kind of does a control alt delete and starts to function normally and you rapidly come back to breathing normal and it you feel like you just woke up um and and it's an amazing uh drug if you can give it in time however fenel being the most powerful of all schedule 2 opioids uh it's not going to disappear it's in your system and the next wave is going to hit in in a matter of minutes uh noone's halflife is much shorter than fentanyl So eventually the naloxone wears off Fentanyl reattaches and you're going to need more naloxone that's why calling 911 is so important because they're bringing more Nar can to the how long is that time period generally the responders between when the you know when the fentol kind of starts to kick in a second time and the the other Nar where you know I don't think I can answer that it's a good question but if if if I took noox or fenel and you gave me nxone and I wake up um it could be as little as another two minutes or 22 minutes right um it just depends on the amount of Fentanyl and the concentration of it so it's it's hard to gauge totally one other thing is important to list here every state has a Good Samaritan law and this is so important to tell high school kids um if you try you see someone in distress and you they need help and you try to make an honest suffer to help by calling 911 you liability protected so what I really it's important to get the message out to underage drinkers at a party a high school setting where they're consuming or drinking under the age or vaping um and they see a friend in distress they're going to think well crap if we call 911 we're going to get in trouble we're all drinking underage right Good Samaritan law Shields you from that I guarantee I challenge any high school kid go out and ask any any MCH if I call called you and you came to a party and you saw underage drinking and clearly someone's turning blue and needs to be no lockon and brought back would you care would you report it I guarantee they don't care about that they only care about being a hero saving lives that's right and so yeah that's that's very important I think because that's something that I've heard right if you're you're at a party you're in a setting it's like even if you're you know of course encourage them not to but you you've drank or or smoked weed or whatever you're not going to to be in trouble by helping that person who's in distress I think that's such such an important thing and going back to about you know the being in distress and like why why do drug dealers deal a drug that they know kills their customers that was my first question it's the one I get the most when I speak about you know in my talks about social media and its connection with these fentanyl pill parents ask me all the time why would they where is this coming from a and which we already talked about and B why would they sell a product that they know kills customer potentially kill their customer that that is the most common question I get from parents that was my first question I also get the most common question from students at student assemblies there's a lot to unpack with that as far as explaining why a dealer a maker would make this and a Smuggler would smuggle it and a dealer would Market it and sell it but the bottom line I think the best answer I got is from a DEA agent and and I can summarize all of it in one word money economics money uh the year Zach died uh the street value of one kilo of heroin uh was $80,000 uh in the east coast uh it costs about 10,000 to make that kilo uh because you need a farm a farmer cultivators and all that uh that's on average um it could be a little more or less so so your net profit is $770,000 back when Zach died 1 kilo of fentanyl had the potential to uh profit between 2 to10 million so $70,000 for one kilo of heroin or 2 to 10 million to make one kilo of Fentanyl and 1 kilo of fentanyl is significantly less to make than one kilo of Heron it's a smaller package and it's uh easier to smuggle what's really sad H is how this is impacting our youth so can I show you a statistic abely so as you know the um the um CDC reports and TR uh they track and Report uh deaths of all types in our country um they they report car deaths they report uh uh cancer deaths from cancer heart attack s uh gun deaths they also report TR drug deaths so I downloaded data of all fentanyl deaths and compared 2015 to 2022 and and as you see I broke it down in age groups uh 20 and older and if you take the average uh here this white line it just shows the difference of how many people died in these age groups between these two years so obviously more people have died recently uh and that averages around 730% growth or eight times more people uh died from fenel eight times more people died from fenel in 2022 than in 2015 that's what this chart showing but when you unveil high school kids it's 17 times growth of deaths 17 times more high schoolers have died in 2022 than in 2015 from fenel so our youth is the fastest growing victim group and these numbers have only increased since 23 numbers were even higher yeah they just released their final reported 2023 numbers about three weeks ago the chart I did an initial glance is basically the same slightly worse okay um but how we are living in a world now where our youth are are dying at unprecedented rates uh UCLA health reported in 2023 an average of 22 students died every week in our country a classroom of students died from only fentanyl every week uh that's a little worse than a u Val shooting every week in our country in 2023 but the the weapon was fentanyl um if you look at the average and this is just the last few years um for use LA Rams or charger fans the newest football stadium in Inglewood California is Sofi Stadium this is how many people died from only fentanyl not all drugs just one drug it more than fills up the newest football stadium one year earlier in 2024 Alaska Airlines had a door plug blowout um thank God it didn't happen about two to four minutes later or two to 4,000 feet higher they were in their climb out um Aviation is my background that plane could have easily resulted in the death of everyone on it had they lost control because there would have been structural damage and the plane would have lost control there were 171 Souls on board that day and and that would have been a worse tragedy but the government shut down the that aircraft type because they didn't know if there is a design production training operational problem but whatever the problem is we need to fix it well we're losing more than that every day in our country from just fentanyl every seven minutes someone dies from illicit Fentanyl and so we have to make this a number one priority in our country our top 1% and for those parents I know we keep beating up on the parents I like how Marie folio says it avoidance doesn't extinguish our fears taking action does so we really need to talk to our kids we need to talk to our schools I highly recommend for parents to talk to the parents of your children's friends bring them in the loop and then surround them with information and how do we work through this and of course talk to your legislators it is a it is time to protect our youth social media is as I mentioned earlier the The Last Mile in this this crisis and so many other harms are invol in that we we have to we have to improve safeguards on social media we can't sustain this we're losing a generation of our youth so no doubt about it and and as as you said you know we're we're talking about it but we're also taking action and so are a lot of other people and that's what this run across the country is all about right is because I was going in schools and I was hearing these stories and it's like my gosh why isn't somebody doing more about this and and I thought I was doing a lot right flying around the country speaking to hundreds of groups every year and kids and and they're coming up and you know they're sharing these stories with me often with tears in their eyes and actually I don't know if I've shared this with you but the first time I heard about Zach was at a a private school down in the the San Francisco area somebody said this happened to this kid in in our area a few years ago and it's just you know hearing these stories day after day now doing this for six years it's like I need to do more I thought I was doing a lot but I need to do more and we all need to do more and so that's what this run across the country is about is difficult and kind of crazy and you know a lot of people told me you shouldn't do this for you know you live in Nashville you've got a pretty good life you know it's like why would you go live in a camper with these two other guys for four months and you know put your put your body through this and and that's what it's all about is hopefully showing um that yes we can talk but we also have to take action and hopefully call in more attention to to these issues I'm so grateful to have your support as part of this and I'm you know excited to go out and get a few miles in with with you today so I'm just so so grateful for for you and who you are and and again your courage for for sharing what what must be so difficult over and over and there's there's no doubt that you're you're saving lives with what you're doing so just want to say thank you and we appreciate it I'm grateful to get to meet you and your team here uh and the commitment you are making every day it absolutely does not go unnoticed uh uh don't know how many other media you've connected with but I'm continuing to hound them uh as well as families and friends uh that they I'm honored that that we're even having the chance to talk and I'm thankful that you and I are Sport and Zach soccer jerseys thank you for this Rockin Youth Soccer Club um but uh I uh I I'm a kind of a big fan of uh I shouldn't say that I I am a big fan of David goggin I'm sure you've heard of them and one of his quotes I really like is is is it I think personifies your mission um we are the sum total of all the obstacles we learn to overcome and this is a monster obstacle the social media harms and we have to figure how as a nation to overcome it you know and that takes the work of everybody and not just families of victims but everybody because when a classroom of kids are dying every week when another victim died seven minutes ago and we're losing an unprecedented fatality rate of over 200 every day which exceeded every war our country's ever been in it is everybody's problem and we have to you know get United and learn and and work together to to solve this problem I really do believe social media safety could have the biggest dent in this I really do if we can regulate it and and make it fair and appropriate and put in good safeguards like the seat belts airbags and anti-lock brakes of social media I really feel like we can make a serious Dent uh in it um so and that is my Polaris that is my North Star is to get that message to to the youth who's walking around with a cell phone this is a mindfield now and a person can tiptoe one time down that slippery slope and try even half a pill and there could be enough FAL to kill three or four adults it's super lethal no doubt about it no doubt about it well I appreciate you taking the time and I'm excited to get out there run some miles on side of the road out here in rural Nevada thank you for taking the time and coming out here and doing this with us yeah I uh I um uh apologize in advance um no need to call an ambulance until you actually see me pass out or I say ambulance okay uh so I appreciate it that sounds good man thank you appreci thank you brother all right some miles then yeah let's do it thank you all for listening thanks again to bark Technologies for sponsoring this podcast we'll see you all on the next episode