What is Pat Hobbs' legacy as Rutgers athletic director?

all right hello everybody Welcome Back to the ruter rant P here Lanny FCA as promised a second episode this week a little more serious than the first episode uh tackling the issues around the athletic director vacancy the abrupt resignation of Patrick Hobbs uh people who may or may not replace him candidates for the job his legacy and if if you hadn't guessed already the reason why we waited to record this episode until now um Brian's uh uh know Bombshells the right word but certainly uh well big big story on what was going on inside the gymnastics program um that led up to or in the months before Patrick Hobs resigned and we need to we need to talk about that certainly um and I want to start there and I think um that for a lot of a lot of instan like this people are not interested Brian and how how the sausage is made but I think it's important to kind of take us through this story in case people thought that we you know stumbled upon this the day that Patrick Hobbs resigned that is far from the case no it's not we uh I had been looking into this since early May um a few gymnasts had publicly on social media expressed some grievances about the way they were treated uh by the gymnastics program namely their head coach um sing Beasley and uh we had looked into it talked to a lot of people and we were investigating this uh for a couple months and then of course Pat Hobs resigns a week and a half ago and we Contin continue to uh report the story until what we have today uh but this was not as impressive as it would be for me to do this story in 10 days time that's not what happened it had been a few months in the making and this is kind of the end product of what we got in our investigation right and and just to be clear the story does not um we're not saying that this is why Patrick Hobs resigned we want to be clear about that this that's not in the story if you haven't read the story yet you should read the story uh make your own conclusions but this was what was going on in the background over the last four or five months um this is a program that and the words you used uh and I think would be how anyone in athletics would qu would would would WR would call it an unusual interest in the gymnastics program ground that team a lot um tell us what the gymnast tell you what the gymnasts told you you talked to was it eight gymnasts former and current gymnasts correct yeah tell tell us what they told you as far as hs's involvement in the program the whole thing what was there what were there what were the allegations yeah sure uh allegations were varied uh there were some um allegations about lack of concern about mental health athletes going to the head coach uh sharing issues with their mental health and at best being ignored and at worst it being held against them um one girl at one point late in the season when she retired uh was told that the coaching staff had had it up to here with her mental health and they had made too many accommodations already which is obviously not something you want to hear when you are coming to someone for help help someone you trust um with mental health concerns um there was accusations of flippant reasons for Te players being kicked off the team one girl uh posted something on her private Snapchat story it somehow got to the coach and within an hour and she was promptly told she no longer had a spot on the team because of that um and what this kind of boils down to is that these girls went to the school through the ethics and compliance Department to express these concerns some of them went to Pat Hobbs who is the leader of the athletic department to express these concerns and they felt that no one was listening to them in the case of Pat Hobs he was siding with his coach with the head coach Beasley at every turn and these athletes felt they had nowhere to go uh which is why some of them went public on social media and why some of them talk to us for this story I think you just touched on it right there uh talking about the what you put in the story as well about the protection that uh these gymnasts felt that that Pat Hobbs was giving II selem Beasley the coach of the gymnastics team obviously this was not a program that was having vast success at Ruckers and a three and 42 record in in the Big 10 is certainly uh not a good Mark as you pointed out in the story um but can you just describe how umi's relationship was going or or how the program was doing at the or how the program is still currently doing uh right now so when we did our story about The Overlook of the 10 years of Ruckers in the Big 10 gymnastics was along with volleyball one of the worst programs in the department um under Umi Slim's Direction there was some team records set but against Big 10 competition they are if not the worst one of the worst programs in the league and they also spend more money than most teams in the league um these girls did feel that she was protected because they were going to Pat Hobs to express these things and they were not being F they were not they did not feel like they were being hurt um that's where that aspect comes in um and as far as Pat Hobs involvement uh he was around the team often this season from my understanding regularly at practices uh attended a majority if not all home meets uh went to multiple Road meets um with the gymnastics program went to a meet in Nashville um in which he participated in a yoga session with the team that was posted by the team's Facebook account um and these things just kind of felt off which is I think where the unusual presence line comes from just he was around he was the athletic director of a department with 22 team sports and he was spending a lot of time around the gymnastics program yeah and I think that that's um unusual to put it mildly and it's not to say that as an athletic director you shouldn't be around all of your teams um but to travel with a with a not with an Olympic sport with um you know a a bad Olympic sport you know to to put it on time me not not to be mean but to to show that much interest is is certainly unusual um given that I mean patabs is not a presence at football practice I mean like just being honest like you guys are there all the time he's never there so just put that in the context it's weird right and I think when I wrote the column um when he resigned people took some people took offense to using that word like these are unusual circumstances and there's one thing in one thing in your story and we finally got a response from Pat hops we get a response from from a a public relations crisis Communications firm again this is just like and I understand I'm not like I'm not dismissing that if the man has health problems that's certainly something he needs to take care of but this is just not these are not just behaviors that you see from someone you know resigning abruptly someone stepping aside from from from a job before a season like this uh leaving his staff no time to prepare for it having no uh continue relationship with the staff no transition um you know no again like we talked to Pats quite a bit during his time at ruers we can text him and call him um to ignore our calls about stuff in the immediate aftermath there's just a lot of smoke here we cannot connect the dots that this is the reason why Patrick Hobbs resigned um but I I it just I'm just telling you it is certainly um interesting is the word I'll use to reiterate uh Pat Hobs in his statement through crisis PR firm that he used to communicate with us uh did reiterate that he stepped aside because of health reasons uh the university when issuing a statement to us reiterated that P Hobs resigned for health reasons uh they're all sticking with that um so that's that's their point of view uh on that just wanted to kind of make that clear that they they that is the narrative officially of why P hop Ste down right and and like you said Steve those are very serious things that on the surface you do have to take care of and it's understandable uh but you're right where there's smoke sometimes there's fire and something to uh keep in the back of your mind toate a sorry to reate a point that I think you've made Steve kind of in your column we've seen very few people talk about Pat Hobs around the athletic department you know Steve pel did an interview with Jerry Corino Greg shano mentioned it in his opening statement when talking to us on Saturday the day after he resigned but no quotes in the press release from the school announcing his departure no you know you think that an athletic director who we'll talk about his legacy later but did some good things in his job and for a lot of fans is one of the best athletic directors in recent Ruckers history you think he' get something from the University acknowledging his achievements and there's just been nothing in the 10 days since he decided to resign and just to be clear what uh what Pat HS did say in that through that in that statement was that these were all of these allegations were looked into and dismissed is that is that the the long story short part correct correct uh yes uh both the school and pet Hobs say that these claims were investigated and found to be unsubstantiated right right sorry good I was gonna say no finish your thought before we move no the other part of is this is this is um the fourth thing like this that's happened under Hops and I think that's an interesting thing the the during the light the softball program swimming and Diving had had a situation like this uh there was a member of a senior staff Mike Zu who was who there was investigation to his behavior Mike Z turns out to be um in just a Twist that you you have a hard time believing um the goet between the athletic department and the gymnastics program um yeah there's just a lot of just a lot of stuff here that that uh yeah that that that's that's funky one thing I wanted to mention that I didn't mention in the beginning when we were talking about allegations one thing that really struck me was um so these two girls that are kicked off the team they start expressing after not being heard by the school or by bat Hobs and after being kicked off the team they go to social media and within a month the head coach that kicked them off the team has gotten them kicked out of their jobs Manning the front desk of The Practice Facility a pay job that they were counting on to make money to pay for you know books and and things they need as a student and then they were reported by the head coach to the student coun to the office of student conduct and essentially is an effort to kick them out of school right so they've already taken away their Spa on the gymnastics team taken away their job that is yes associated with the gymnastics team but there are girls working that job from my understanding that are not part of the gymnastics team and there was an attempt to take them out of the school they're going to uh those those um allegations from the head coach were found to be unsubstantiated not enough evidence uh and that claim was dropped but uh I think that's another example of going way too far um and going overboard on something um way further than she probably had to yeah and this quote this quote really struck a chord we felt isolated we felt so help hopeless we were screaming at the top of our lungs help us help us help us and no one was answering no matter what we did or said nothing was being done we were not being taken care of properly we're telling the athletic ctor were're telling ethics and compliance and they ignored us um yeah and remember the athletic can't come back to this like the athletic D is not a stranger he's the man in the yoga class like he's the man on going on trips with you to the cities and the road trips with the team I mean it's just again this this there's yeah there's a lot there's a lot here that I justest I encourage everyone to read it pat do you have any other final questions before I guess just what I was bringing up earlier the success of the gymnastics program Brian did a great job in the story breaking down the financials and how coach um Saleem Beasley was ultimately rewarded with contract extensions despite ultimately subpar performances I thought that was a really uh strong part of the article as well and also the donations that you brought up in the article as well Brian so maybe you could just bring us home on that on that aspect of it all sure sure the donation numbers the contribution numbers that uh the program has received in her tenure have dropped sign ific l in her first year fiscal year 2019 it was in the six figures something in the RM of $200,000 last year they received $7,500 in contributions which is just an enormous drop um I I can't tell you why that is but it is notable um she received two contract extensions so she has signed four different amendments to her contract uh original contract an amendment directly after that first contract she signed a new deal in 2022 and directly after in 2023 she signed an extension that gave her a 5 figure raise and came with a $25,000 retention bonus each subsequent year so after being hired in 2018 making $95,000 in base salary by this by the end of the contract or I should even say this past season she made more than double that by making $190,000 in base salary and the retention bonus she received and this is as you said despite the fact the team success is not there the team record is not there there is an argument that gymnastics is a a sport that you could look at score was the score elevating but the truth is the score was not elevating enough for it to be competitive in the Big 10 and that's why they were two and 43 in Big 10 play over the last five years that's not that does not meet the B of success in any realm I would I would say right yeah I know that obviously Ruckers is um well known for giving out contract extensions uh and so maybe that's she's not the only one to receive one um that's one thing we should point out I'm I'm certain of that um but yeah under under performing program with the with good facilities now um yeah good good tradition in New Jersey there's a lot there's a lot of there's a lot there that that that stands out uh she did not comment for the story Brian is that correct uh she was not made available through by the school gotcha okay she is still the head coach of the gymnastics program she's still a rers employee we went through the proper channels and by the time we were ready to publish a story uh and the deadline we give them they did not make her available okay all right uh what do we what do we think um is could have happened there um obviously with softball you know the coach the coach survived still coaching doing a good job all counts uh sometimes you can overcome things like this sometimes uh changes are put in place that that that make things better it seems like a very U difficult to imagine her continuing but I've been wrong on many things before what do you think we shall see no no really way to tell so we we'll see where this goes all right um let's dive a little bit the one thing we haven't done and I think it's it it's just kind of was such an Abrupt thing that we weren't ready for it and uh I was on vacation and we didn't have a chance to just kind of discuss uh Pat hbs's ad and and you know the legacy of him in that job and it's it's certainly you got to look back on it as a pretty mixed thing um you know I I I think he did a pretty good job and I've written that written that bunch of times I mean there there are things that he is responsible for hiring Steve pel number one um building a basketball facility my goodness the level of the issue that was before he got here for previous ads and the the the state of the facilities was terrible and no one had built anything for years that was a huge Improvement and and you can't you have to credit some of the team success and the ability to recruit uh athletes like Dylan Harper A's belly to that that's part of it um you know those are two big wins um looking at the flip side you know I I I think that obviously the the very difficult hiring of Greg shano in that entire process left a bitter taste in the mouth of many people um a lot of people who were very prominent Ruckers people who then that could have been done handled so much better than it was uh and it it it it was difficult situation that led to a lot of I think some donor donor problems donor I don't think donor Outreach was his strength and certainly as we've written and documented in Keith sergeant did an incredible story in it recently um the nil thing was a fiasco what am I missing well this is the fourth um I don't know if we want to call it a scandal but fourth different um issue coming up in his tenure in eight years right you have the swimming and Diving coach that was a bit of a debacle uh the softball investigation as you mentioned before Mike Zu who in in an interesting twist was the sports administrator for the gymnastics program this past year uh he was accused of bullying and creative creating a hostile work environment and he's still employed um and this is the fourth um issue in his 8-year tenure it feels like that's above average more than the usual ad and and I I don't think those could be overlooked uh but otherwise I think you did a pretty good uh overview of his um of his tenure I think the ni thing is a really big thing I just think they were not well adjusted to the new reality of college sports and I think that uh you should be judged by that I think other athletic departments were more aggressive and um I think Ruckers was a bit too conservative under his leadership and uh I would say the Greg shano Fiasco really to me between that that's the main negative of his tenure and then the main positive is the Steve pel hiring um I'm not sure which outweighs the other but the GRE shano Fiasco uh really like you said left a lot of people with a bitter taste in their mouth and I think really really left a stain on on his legacy whatever that may be in 10 years right the only thing I'll add is the way that college sports are now shifting with Revenue sharing coming and the professionalization of College athletics right in our face Ruckers is always generally whether it's nil facilities hiring reaction to bad press uh investigations things like that playing from behind um and it just feels like with the huge change that's about to hit college sports Ruckers is once again playing from behind uh with Revenue sharing and things like that and this couldn't have come at a worse time from a leadership perspective um so I think that's just I don't know how that weighs on Pat we're talking about Legacy here but to it's almost like if you cared this much I I understand the circumstances but this is a school that you have so much pride in and and love for and it's almost like leaving someone at at the altar it felt like a little bit Yeah there's an element of that certainly yeah yeah um I should say this as well as we as we discussed the Legacy like um you heard of the bad situation like we can't we can't dismiss that it was a hot mess when Julie Herman left and in a million different ways I mean you went from an ad who I mean talk about not being able to talk to the Press like every time she opened her mouth it was an absolute disaster and the Kyle the Kyle flood situation and the I mean stuff that was happening in that program under her watch and the owner apathy it was it he he came into a bad situation um and improved that you know he was a front-facing guy he was a guy cheating on the Seline of games I mean he loved that part of it which is another reason why I'm just having a was having a hard time buying the I just going to cut the chord here before you know the greatest chapter in ruers history as he used to say was about to be written finally I mean this is going to be the year that this that that chapter could be written you know we're we're two weeks away from the season opener and he and he steps steps aside from that um certainly that's that's another reason why a lot of people left him scratching his head but it's important to remember that that that he did inherit a bad situation uh someone asks as Rucker is in a better place now than when he took over absolutely um but a lot of that is baked in right I mean a lot of that's the Big 10 money is finally coming in a lot of that is you know they're in they they they got on the right boat you know lot that lot of that had to do with the uh the ad 280s before him Tim pretti and making getting getting Ruckers into a position where they're in a conference that is going to put them in a good spot so um mixed is the best way best word would use I think all right fair fair fair next ad the big question um and I don't see any signs that Ruckers is in a hurry here I don't know that Ruckers has to be in a hurry here uh I think it's better that they're not to her here to make the hire you know we have not heard any word yet about a search firm Ryan pasari who's was was hs's loyal Lieutenant chief of staff is the interim ad uh if anybody people around Ruckers I'm sure a lot of people know Ryan he's a sharp dude um so they they kind of got it covered in the interm um but yeah I mean now we're get I think the biggest takeaway is they must do this right you know I mean got to do a national search at the very basic National search 100% agree 100% agree I don't know if there is a slam dunk candidate out there I know Sarah bomb Garner it was the first they mentioned because she was number two under P Hobs for the beginning of his tenure I just don't see that happening she's at maybe the best athletic department in the country um and I think you'd probably want someone else that either has athletic director experience or has significant experience in the power four and is currently in one of those departments that can knows what it's t what it takes to be successful in this new era um a lot of people brought up Brian White uh he's at FAU that's that's a really good name that' be a great hire um I don't know if this is a spot that he want to leave fa for or if he's maybe waiting for you know even greener pastures but there are only so many ad jobs in the Big 10 and in the SEC the two leagues that really matter uh so you have to think Ruckers will at least be an attractive option for a lot of attractive names right yeah that's true that's for sure and I think what you said about experience and a proven track record is so great to say it's harder to find right right it's how many guys are willing to make a big jump from a good situation it's about finding the person from you know maybe some not in out of left field higher but that's how it has to be for some sometimes right so like Pat Hobs didn't come from Michigan or yeah per se right he came from a completely different background as a law school uh Dean it's a road we can't go down again that's a like that I think that's one thing for sure like the last few and it's funny just looking back on each of those scenarios the last few ads and and how they were hired um you know Pat Hobs again was just kind of foisted upon ruter in a bad situation Julie Herman fired he was supposed to be the intr he said no he wants to be the he want to be and you know then Chris Christie I think that's that there was no search committee there was no process you know he was the day and you okay uh I guess when you think and considering Julie the way Julie Herman was hired which was like I someone told me this was laughing a 28 person search committee I don't remember that but I believe it because it was a absolute Fiasco you know and they came they ended up get they ended up hiring someone with no experience in men's basketball or football just Unthinkable an athletic department like brocker and someone who had walked into the door with with her own major Scandal that that you know the opening press conference I mean just stuff that from the beginning an absolute disaster didn't do their job vetting the candidate hired for all the wrong reasons so another strike you know I just think you've got to do a national search you've got to be able to find someone who's been in that chair someone who knows how to do this to run a an athletic department it should be uh an absolute prerequisite requirement for that job and I will say unlike the unlike eight years ago I think it's a really good job you know and I think I mean positioned well you look around I mean I know there's there's always G be the skies falling people like well what if they separate in the 40 schools and Ruckers get kicked out um yeah the next person should be the one who makees sure that doesn't happen right the next person should be the one to make sure Ruckers is positioned well that the New York Market it's it's not just it's not just their address that it's part of their identity there's so much here and I I say that like you know I believe it like this is a good job this is a good opportunity there no all the problems of the past um forget this team's this program struggles I think there's a lot here for someone who um you know is an upand cominging I think Brian White you mentioned that name I think it's a great name um and I kind of forgot you look at his what he did for basketball he kind of I forgot what he did for football hiring Tom Herman down there yeah I mean that that that's a good one um you know the one name that comes up a lot Tim pretti I think is a fantasy I will say that I I he just got a job maybe if it was six months ago um you know he just got a job at leading a conference I think that it would be a step down for him at this point and it'd be too much money so I'll get that one out of the way out of the way first yeah another interesting point the the intersection of how government and politics play into this situation as well you mentioned before Chris christe the governor of New Jersey and his close connection with Pat Hobbs uh how how does the long-term effect of the Board of Governors and and many steps ahead of where we are here right now talking about Pat Hobs Legacy how all that's going to factor into the situation is also really important yeah totally let me throw in a hypothetical people have brought this up I figured we should talk about it Greg shano athletic director um it's no I don't think so his job's not done as football coach I mean maybe he's put maybe in five years from now if he feels like he's gotten them to a point where they're not I mean you know they're doing something better than the pinstrip bow and the program's in a great shape and he um but I can't imagine that and I don't know if he want if he'd want that headache to be honest with you like it's not it's I know the the Barry alare is model is out there but um yeah I don't I don't know I don't and I've never talked to him about it but I don't I don't see that um I agree yeah I just just we did talk about this last episode Joe Harris simc coaching waiting you mentioned the Barry Alvarez model uh I didn't Barry Alvarez leave to become ad and then coaching an interim basis later on in his career um I don't think it's likely I don't think it's going to happen but I figured I'd bring it up because multiple people have brought it up to us and uh I don't know I don't think it's impossible I don't think it's likely I don't think it's impossible well the important part is to to realize how how much influence will Greg have on this search how how much does Steve pel have on this search likees does that trickle down I don't I'm not really sure the inner workings of the athletic department at that level but your two most influential coaches I mean for talking about the intersection of government and Athletics New Jersey's highest paid employee I don't know if still is but but right like obviously the head football coach is is one of them uh it's a a it's a high power position this person will not be AB this person will not be hired if Greg shanon doesn't approve it I I totally believe that uh and it's it's Savvy again as um you know my PhD and shanoy tells me um the fact that he in his comments a couple of times has has mentioned the name Amy Towers who if you don't know who Amy Towers is you're probably not around Ruckers but she's now the chairwoman of the Board of Governors and an extremely influential person in the Ruckers Universe um who will have a big say in this job and and I think there is certainly Synergy there between the chairwoman of the Board of Governors and the head football coach and I would and I think as well uh the University president so um while I trying to think of a play way to put this I mean shano and Hobs coexisted I think it's probably the best the strongest word strongest verb I would put uh didn't use that phrase and far longer than a lot of people thought they would have right like when that Prescott when they were introduc when Shan was introduced to that press conf you put the over under on two years I would have been hammering the under that that that relationship and it got to eight I mean how long how long has it been five five five five five yeah so um yeah that was my question for when when Greg spoke the day after hobbs' res resignation I want to keep that in the back of your mind too like this was the next day at football availability Greg was obviously asked a lot of questions Brian and I were of course two of the people asking questions was it was so poing to me that at Big 10 media days a month earlier he said that this is the most vertically aligned Ruckers has ever been from a athletic standpoint and then a month later it's in not in not falling apart I I want to put it smartly it's not falling apart but the person in charge of the Athletics program resigns abruptly and there are things uh not vertically aligned but wasn't that the press conference that he didn't mention hobbs' name corre like he all but he all but mentioned the J like and the and I gotta tell you veto in field maintenance I mean he all but mentioned like everybody and you got you can't without our equipment guys I mean he yeah I I think that was pretty you telling right sure it's interesting you know yeah um this is this is a man in Greg shano who thinks about everything he says does I I don't know for a fact if it was an accident or not but I'd be very very surprised if that was not intentional yeah totally I I I I think I think so um and I and I I I will say this like I I I think Greg wants a partner like if I had to guess what he wants and if you look if you look around right now the ones that are doing success you know essentially the athletic director is what do you need and like Ryan Day says I need $20 million for a for for a starting lineup right and right there's there's a team of people going all right let's get Ryan Day $20 million so he can buy you know the best running back in the SEC like I honestly this is like that's what's happening elsewhere it's never gonna happen here like that but but um alignment is a great word um and uh you know I think that's been lacking I think that the one thing I would say right now with the Ruckers like as for all the the good things Pat hob did like there were some things he was doing that was holding that place holding this place back um very simply and out of caution out of traditional whatever whatever you want to put however you want to put it out of the lawyer in him out of uh of not being you know Forward Thinking enough and believe me we've had we had conversations where we argued about this and he disagreed strongly and said you know he was doing things that trying to be proactive and you you just don't know what all that we're doing okay maybe I don't but I do talk to a lot of people uh and the sentiment around from a lot of people uh in around the athletic Universe was that that he was holding Ruckers back in someplace we'll see if they can find someone who can drag them forward I guess that's the well in the meantime I'm interested to see what Ryan pasi's position in that realm is as the inter uh he's not the ad yet but he has the power of the ad and kind of I don't anticipate I think this is just me thinking here but once the season is started already I'm not sure how much influence the ad will have on the 2024 football season and the 2024 25 basketball season right I think that the work preparing for those years was years in the making now you can kind of let Ryan pasari have the year as the ad just kind of keep the ship I'm trying to find an analogy here that I can't think just make sure everything stays upright and in the meantime it'll be interesting to see if he'll be more aggressive in iil if that will be more part of his message uh and just how he how he differentiates from what Pat Hobs did because yes you're right he was his loyal Lieutenant for many years but now he's the guy in charge and he has a bit of a power to do things differently if he feels fit talk about a bad spot I mean honestly and I you know I feel for him I you and again this is this is someone who who who so you know survived the her Julie anybody who's like Survivor of Julie Herman kind of got through it um really well respected Chief of Staff knows everything that's going on in there but man you suddenly you're thrown you're you're from you know a lieutenant the the General's gone and you've got no time zero time to prepare for it oh and by the way the season's here I mean that's tough it's a tough job right but like Brian was saying they've been preparing for this for years right and the guy that's been there for he's been there 13 years so uh he's got the experience he knows the inner workings of the athletics department and right anyone's best position to maintain Lev level the situation it should be him and of course we haven't really talked we talked about his background a little bit but obviously he was a college football player at University of Pennsylvania understands football understands the game at a high level academic level first and foremost as an Ivy Leaguer um and a guy that's going to be hugely influential in how Ruckers and comes out of this Revenue sharing era or goes into this Revenue sharing era in in the Big 10 coming soon right he certainly has an opportunity to yeah to to make a stamp on it uh internally during the few months that he is running the show so to speak all right want to take some questions from we got some questions from our texters um a lot of good ones and a lot that we uh still can't answer so keep that in mind but this is this is an important one um since Hobbs resigned is he entitled to any severance under his contract boy I wish we knew the answer to that and the best way I can put it is we've asked um and in the past when Tim Peretti left we knew we knew exactly what money he was getting that day I think other people other examples of that through Ruck the the the sance agreements were were made public Brian R uh Ruckers has not done that has not acknowledged the existence of one I don't know we've asked University they will not answer the question um we OA uh documents and um we we've op many things and some of the opras we got back were denied because they're Personnel records and we were told that Personnel records almost entirely are exempt from Oprah um so I would assume This falls under the same category if they did not deny this one though did they deny this one already uh they confirmed no sorry sorry I should say they did not confirm or deny the existence of any documents pertaining to a potential investigation right um but what about the Seance agreement that they they I have not received a response on that my expectation is that I will receive the same response because it is a Personnel related matter uh but if we get a different answer will let you guys know I I have to imagine if there's money people know what Oprah is open oh yeah okay all right I wasn't sure I wasn't sure we need to bring a guest guest Guy on to it's a public record request folks EST yeah right public information which also its laws are changing in New Jersey if you're reading the headlines yes also important is very good point I don't know if that's gonna make it harder of course this can make it harder I don't it makes harder this instance course Ruckers has made it hard as hard as possible um in every instance but yeah but again this is this is something that that we could not forget getting the document could not get a yes or no answer to the existence of a document telling you folks reporting is not a funny job sometimes and this is this is just yeah recers has decided not to play ball with the information here the best best way we can put it and I'm going to I'm going to say that honestly because I think it's information we should have if Pat Hobs was given money on the way out the door they should present that to us and that's public that's public information I I will we will fight I at the State University of New Jersey yes it is we will fight that to get that information that's for sure so per his contract we again they could have an agreement outside of this correct but the way his contract is worded my understanding is as not a lawyer but reading the text of the contract is that if he resigned he could submit a document within 60 days of wanting to resign and Leadership meeting the president could decide whenever to honor that resignation and the contract is over no more money owed nothing that's my understanding obviously there are always ways that two sides can agree and have a separation agreement as you said uh we are not sure exactly what happened uh like you said because workers won't answer but if it was strictly a resignation both sides shake hands and go with their own ways they would owe him nothing I just find it hard to uh believe that to be the case no matter the circumstances behind it because that's a lot of money left on the contract and it's hard to just let that go without getting any of it back if you were if you walked away without a without a again citing health reasons to walk away without a penny if that doesn't add up like it already it already doesn't add up to me to walk away to resign your job because you're having a serious health problem at a university that essentially gave $5 million to the women's basketball coach in a similar situation right and I maybe people have said well maybe Pat hob doesn't want to hold them over uh you know the same way that Vivian Stringer did I mean it's a lot of lot of money to leave on the table um they're sick leave they're they're leave of absences separate again like people this just it comes back to why this is all so unusual um and if he left and that's very telling to me if he if he end up leaving this job without taking a penny from Ruckers University that answers a lot of questions but we do not have the answer to that yet so stay tuned all right more questions uh who qualifies to be ad who is already in house Joe wants to know I think we talked about that a little bit Ryan pasari uh I think will you know depending on how he does deserves to interview like he deserves an audience he's been in there for you know he would think that they would sit down and talk to him um uh I would say this like I'd be surprised if it's an internal candidate I just I don't you know I I don't think there was a secession plan within Ruckers and even if there was again I come back to the idea of getting someone who has experience running anle Department would be important would be would be number one on my list of of things to check by and that and that would that would cross off bomb Garner names like that as well I don't know we don't know what if that's going to be the case for Ruckers but you guys agree with that that that would be hard to imagine internal can I agree uh and I'm also not Al I'm also not Crossing off someone from the professional ranks who understands contracts payer playment payer payer player payments sorry and and uh bookkeeping and salary caps and things like that I think that's valuable experience Beyond uh you know being the head person uh you know at a at a law school or or another college so you saying someone who like maybe a CEO of a of a major corporation that makes cell phones like mortola perhaps is that where you're going with this like a Greg Brown type figure that would go into the business world and tap their athletic director I I I'm thinking about it from a football and basketball perspective where these are huge topics that are going to be extremely important and yeah when you talk about uh you know the business behind College athletics I think that's the the next logical step so would it cross over into the big private sector it has already right at times in Rucker's history what do you think about that Brian if if there was a can this is a really interesting point and one that I have kind of ruled out maybe for the wrong reasons I don't know do you think if they if they could find someone who was a successful b a highlevel business person would you consider them for the job I think certainly youd give it some thought I do think that you need a second person kind of to patch point on the sports side of things who knows college sports and the inner workings of the reality now because this was difficult enough to deal with for ads in the current job you know Pat Hobs was the ad for four or five years before this happened and his head was probably spending half the time with all these new things happening um so I would imagine a person that right now if they're in the private sector they're at best a a very plugged in fan but they're a fan nonetheless they're not in the inner workings um so I would if you go that route I think you have to hire a second person as a lieutenant who really really knows what's going on um maybe as a potential successor um and I think maybe even consider adding a GM I know some football programs have a GM to handle that stuff within the football program or basketball programs have that too I certainly think that they should look into that regardless of who they hire uh because I I don't know that having an you know an alus partnership is enough to handle all that but that's kind of going a little bit off the rails here um but I certainly I certainly think it's possible I still think if you're going to make a primary decision if you have a choice between private sector or season veteran in athletics I think you got to pick the lad every time yeah as long as that seasoned veteran can can tap into the you know to the to the private sector I mean you want someone who's gonna be able to get some obviously raise some funds that's the if and that's a good point we should we should address like for me number one thing raising money um would be the number one number two thing would be a vision for putting Ruckers in a in a in in the conversation with the with the 25 schools of 40 schools how many of it is that survived this what else what else is on the list what what are the other things that are important for for this job like I I thought just right now what I was talking about and what Brian just said with a general manager someone who understands uh payroll uh like how how these things are going to have to work uh I think that's really important um that's all I got though crisis management yeah I would say someone who public relations for yes someone could avoid being in a scandal every other year that would certainly be helpful I think um I I think people might feel that these things happen really often and I think they really happen more often than other places than they do at Ruckers especially in the last 15 years or so I think if you could find someone who could do their best to avoid finding themselves in these predicaments that would be helpful for everybody right okay uh all right looking through some more questions and and we got we got this one from a few people um why why did Patrice Hobbs Pat's wife take down her Instagram with the Ireland pick if his health concern was legit and nothing to hide in one of the many truly odd things that have happened during this um story Patrice Hobbs Pat's wife who was a presence that Ruckers game s cour sat court side I mean was was always around put put post the photo and did was it 24 hours 48 hours after pat resigned 48 Hours it was Sunday he Friday right of of the two of them in Ireland um smiling like a vacation pigly you put and and people I don't know people kind of flipped out it was it was it was texted to me I don't know 50 times it felt like probably not 50 but I would say over 10 times people like what the hell is this um I don't know I I your guess is as good as mine certainly free to do anything you want social media you're private citizen um did your count did but it did it was not to me it was not a good look for someone who um you know was was leaving a job because of of concern over their health it just wasn't and and without talking to the media or any or really anybody on the way out the door I do want to address this um because people are wondering if this is something that he resigned Friday booked the flight Saturday and went out Sunday my understanding as this was a pre-planned vacation now I'm having time I'm having a hard time nailing down exactly how it all worked out because Peak behind the curtain we were told two weeks before P Hobs resigned that he was going to talk to the media about the everchanging landscape of College athletics which we had been looking forward to uh that was uh pushed back because uh what we were told is he wasn't ready to address all the changes they wanted more firm information Etc fair enough I followed up asking will he be available the following week and I was told no he's going on vacation okay then that week comes and I learned he's in the office and his vacation is the following week obviously that Friday he resigns and then he goes on the vacation the following week right what I don't know is was it always planned for this week was it pushed back a week because of events that led to his resignation that I do not know but my understanding is he always planned on going to Ireland this summer and the only bad decision they made was posting about it publicly on Instagram and letting the world know and become the topic of Rucker Twitter for 48 hours yeah and it does it does go back to another interesting point about all this um the timeline to me is fascinating and it's not like you know he was having high level he's playing planning for the season planning for the future planning to meet us to talk about it U meeting with influential people in the Ruckers Community a full staff meeting on Wednesday health health concerns did not come up there have not have not talked to one human being who mentioned oh Pat said he was having he was having cardi not one person Friday Friday he resigns again just that week that's of that week Tuesday night big dinners Wednesday staff meeting I guess Thursday was a bad day I don't know you put it yeah but Friday it's over yeah and so from everyone I've talked to and Steve and Pat maybe you guys have found someone else but I could not find anybody that any earlier than two hours before maybe 3 hours before the public announcement of his resignation had any idea that the resignation was coming I could not find one person and we've talked to people that you would expect to know not one person was able to tell us oh we knew that you know a day ago two days ago Pat had mentioned it in this meeting I never heard anything until Steve P heard about it on he was on vacation that's that's I believe him that's where he found out about it that's what he told Jerry Kino yes yeah so um and we didn't talk about that it's funny no one asked about that and I think that's a really important thing here that was a close relationship when all the stuff was going down with shano and and Hobs was under the microscope and we were putting the screws on him when that when that deal fell apart um Steve pel might have saved his ads job I don't know that might be a stretch but certainly came stood up went to bathroom in a very public way built his contract around having Pat Hobs as ad um yeah you can't if I get it that football drives the bus people in basketball hate when you say that but um you still can't hire this next ad without his input without his significant input sure sure absolutely absolutely yeah have you they get any sense of what how are they is there any concern in basketball or is this sort of the same thing that that football isn't all right we're ready for the season let's just there's nothing we can do I would say it'd be a surprise if there wasn't concern because Pat Hobs might have been the most basketball friendly athletic director Ruckers has ever had uh he was a basketball guy at heart Steve pel was his crowning droel as a as a athletic director right and he very clearly enjoyed being at the basketball games firing up the crowd bringing people you know Phil Murphy sat next to him next to him plenty of times Courtside um that was his baby right um I think he was much closer to the basketball program than he was to the football program uh maybe for reasons related to the Fiasco coaching but nonetheless um even I think when Ash was the head coach of football he was closer to the basketball program um and I think you're not going to find another ad that will be leaning more towards basketball than football um moving forward I think that was kind of the Pinnacle for the basketball program and so because of that I would be surprised if there wasn't a little bit of concern um that they get a little bit less benefit of the doubt than they did under hops yeah there's a lot of people who remember the days under Bob Moki where it was forget the benefit of the doubt it was like taking taking money from Paul to pay Peter or whatever the expression is from basketball I don't think we're going back to that like I don't think that's gonna happen but um yeah I think that you would certainly be um know concerned is the right word but yeah concern is the right word if you're in little nervous nervous a little nervous is thr word exactly okay we got through that one anything else we need to address fellas I think we addressed all the questions we can I apologize I know what everyone that that that's about 12% of the questions but did the best we can um what do you think have we miss anything guys final thoughts Brian you get you you got take like 10 minutes off and go for a walk and this seems have taken over your life here the last few weeks you okay I'm I'm doing all right um I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of this what the reaction is um and uh yeah just uh interesting time for this to happen too you know two weeks before before the football season he resigns the Thor comes out two days before the season opener which probably is not a great thing for uh for football they probably would have preferred this not to happen so close to the season uh but it did so um and I'm fascinated to see how an ad search impacts the most anticipated football and basketball Seasons this school has had in half a century just a lot happening all at once oh a lot happening one one last thing uh there are obviously some some fan changes for the football team uh getting into the stadium you might want to look into that from your past experience but I also think there's one thing you were talking about earlier and you said the next ad has to maintain that New York Market uh and and push that the way that pernetti did to get rers into the Big 10 do you remember the Yankees Ruckers partnership under Pat Hobs of course yeah that was right um that was an important part of his legacy as well that we we didn't touch on just popped up in the back of my mind Point yeah partnership was a big thing he did some corporate stuff that yeah that go on the list yeah uhuh so you're saying that he was a big reason we were in Yankee Stadium last December yeah in in the pinch rple he was the reason I was I was there and not in Phoenix arizota I think might if Greg shanon might have something to do with that as well but yeah yeah all right good job on that story Brian if no one else tells you um appreciate very and I will say this having gone through a few of these the most complicated of these stories that we have ever uh tried to un unravel still unraveling it um but good job doing that done and we'll be following it through follow the coaching search I mean AD search excuse me and most of all the next podcast we have it'll be about a football game we promise you that recap the Howard game soon thanks for listening to this as always fire away with your questions you have any story tips or anything else that you wanted to let us know you know where to find us thanks for listening